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07-26-2010, 09:24 AM   #106
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Here's a quick one I got from Silkypix Pro 4.1 using the 1-click Manual WB on the JPEG.
There's more that can be done to fine-tune the skin colour, and also adjust contrast, sharpness etc.

Not as good as the Pentax Digital Camera Utility software, I guess the PDCU is specifically calibrated for Pentax cameras.
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07-26-2010, 09:39 AM   #107
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QuoteOriginally posted by kittykat46 Quote
Here's a quick one I got from Silkypix Pro 4.1 using the 1-click Manual WB on the JPEG.
There's more that can be done to fine-tune the skin colour, and also adjust contrast, sharpness etc.

Not as good as the Pentax Digital Camera Utility software, I guess the PDCU is specifically calibrated for Pentax cameras.
Attachment 66918
Yes, very nice BUT that is SilkyPix
which is what Pentax DCU is based on
SilkyPix version 4.1 ought to be more or less identical to Pentax DCU 4.1.
I used Pentax DCU/SilkyPix 4.11 that's all -
so what you did is basically what I did, albeit a version 0.01 before mine -
so was there a point to this?

I had been at great pains (to almost being pedantic) to point out Pentax DCU/SilkyPix was the one software that was successful,

so will ask again explicitly/clearly -
try some other well known software please? -
excluding Pentax DCU or SilkyPix which DCU is based on -
hopefully that is now clear enough?

Pentax DCU is based on SilkyPix -


Thanks

Last edited by UnknownVT; 07-26-2010 at 10:49 AM.
07-27-2010, 02:35 AM   #108
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QuoteOriginally posted by UnknownVT Quote
or this one from PS Elements 7.0 using the same grey-point selected on the same area on the white T-shirt
You could sell that pic as art. It looks like a drawing Title could be "Concert in night vision goggles" or something like that.

QuoteOriginally posted by UnknownVT Quote
Yes, very nice BUT that is SilkyPix
which is what Pentax DCU is based on
SilkyPix version 4.1 ought to be more or less identical to Pentax DCU 4.1.
DCU is based on SilkyPix (basicly it's a modified SilkyPix), but they are NOT the same. The original SilkyPix renders Pentax raw files a bit different than PPL/DCU! I know it from experience, a few of us tested it. Out of the box SilkyPix renders a bit different colors than DCU.

Last edited by simico; 07-27-2010 at 03:15 AM.
07-27-2010, 03:09 AM   #109
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Here's my version from Bibble 5. Clicked wb on the bassist's shirt and because the photo looked a bit underexposed I also did a 1-click white point on the white shirt and black point select on the drum in the lower left corner. This was all done in 10 seconds



With more tweaking it could be better than this.

07-27-2010, 10:02 AM   #110
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QuoteOriginally posted by simico Quote
DCU is based on SilkyPix (basicly it's a modified SilkyPix), but they are NOT the same. The original SilkyPix renders Pentax raw files a bit different than PPL/DCU! I know it from experience, a few of us tested it. Out of the box SilkyPix renders a bit different colors than DCU.
I'll accept that -
BUT that was the whole point of my posting -
up to now only Pentax DCU (based on modified SilkyPix) managed anything that resembled a recovery to natural -
all the other well known editors/processors did not manage it -
I stated very clearly throughout this thread (since Post #23) that it was Pentax DCU based on SilkyPix that did it -
so what was the point of using and showing that SilkyPix could do it? -
I would have said without even trying that SilkyPix would be able to do the same thing -
since Pentax DCU would be using basically the fundamental SilkPix engine.

However I do see:
QuoteOriginally posted by simico Quote
Here's my version from Bibble 5. Clicked wb on the bassist's shirt and because the photo looked a bit underexposed I also did a 1-click white point on the white shirt and black point select on the drum in the lower left corner. This was all done in 10 seconds

With more tweaking it could be better than this.
Excellent thank you.

Now I know that Bibble 5 can also do the white point thing
(did you use the JPG or the RAW/DNG?) -
have you found any other editor that could so simply render that awkward photo to something that looks natural? -
again to be clear/explicit -
other than Pentax DCU, or SilkyPix, or now Bibble?

I know I could not manage either the white/grey point trick or any other manipulation with the following,
and would really be grateful if anyone can show me how to recover to a natural looking shot it with those:

ACR (Adobe Camera RAW) 5.6 (for RAW/DNG)
LightRoom 3 Beta (for RAW/DNG)
PS Elements 7.0 (for JPG)
PhotoImpact 8 (for JPG)

I am hoping to find other S/W that can either do the simple White or Grey point thing -
or anyone using the big guns editors which could not recover using white or grey point
- please show me how to recover that awkward photo to something that resembles natural....

Oh, before I lose part of the gist of all this (or me sounding smug, or challenging) - that awkward photo showed that using the big named well known photo editors I could not recover to anything that resembled natural even from RAW/DNG - this could well be my limitation - and again I would love for anyone to show me how it could be salvaged.

here are the originals for download:
in Kx folder (link)
IMGP4490.DNG
and
IMGP4490.JPG

Last edited by UnknownVT; 07-27-2010 at 10:13 AM.
07-28-2010, 02:23 AM   #111
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QuoteOriginally posted by UnknownVT Quote
Now I know that Bibble 5 can also do the white point thing
(did you use the JPG or the RAW/DNG?) -
have you found any other editor that could so simply render that awkward photo to something that looks natural? -
I used the DNG file. I was converting/developing my most recent photos, so I thought I would give your DNG a quick try. I haven't tried it in any other app, may try it in Rawstudio, RawTherapee, Ufraw+Gimp and Lightroom 3 beta2 (if it still works) later if my little daughter lets me
07-28-2010, 08:40 AM   #112
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QuoteOriginally posted by simico Quote
I used the DNG file. I was converting/developing my most recent photos, so I thought I would give your DNG a quick try. I haven't tried it in any other app, may try it in Rawstudio, RawTherapee, Ufraw+Gimp and Lightroom 3 beta2 (if it still works) later if my little daughter lets me
Thanks, that would be very informative -
hopefully Pentax DCU - aka SilkyPix isn't as unique as I initially thought -
now that you have shown Bibble 5 also can do it -
perhaps there are other S/W that also can do a white or grey point to salvage that photo.

If it's not too imposing - will Bibble 5 also open JPGs?
If so, would you mind trying the white point on the JPG
and see if it also manages a more or less natural looking shot, please?

BTW - if there are S/W that can't manage the White or Grey point trick -
I would be very interested in how to salvage that shot using other techniques -
in fact that's the reason I posted that shot -
so that others more capable than me can show me how to salvage the shot
in the other well known processors/editors.

originals for download:
in Kx folder (link)
IMGP4490.DNG
and
IMGP4490.JPG
07-28-2010, 08:54 AM   #113
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Quick run through lightroom 3 (I just started to learn lightroom 1 week ago)
Used custom WB and used the drummers shirt as the neutral, then shifted the tint away from the green end.

I could do a bit more in CS5 on the colors, but it was a quicky


07-28-2010, 09:06 AM   #114
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Since you keep repeating the statement "Pentax DCU - aka SilkyPix", I have to state categorily that it is not correct to term it so.

I use Silkypix Pro all the time, and also have the Pentax DCU version 4 installed.

The Pentax DCU is, of course, based on Silkypix, as the CD-ROM label says, but they are quite different software.

The user interface is totally different, to start with, so it definitely will not feel like the same software. Many controls are different, and behave somewhat differently.
Silkypix has many capabilities which the DCU doesn't, and it also renders Pentax RAW files differently. Silkypix, for example, offers very complex highlight and shadow retention PP controls, which Pentax DCU doesn't. If a photo needs a lot of work to recover shadows or highlights, Silkypix is a superb tool.

Of course, Silkypix is a paid software, and somewhat pricey for the Pro Version.

On the other hand, the Pentax DCU has quite a number of features which are specifically tuned to the K-7, which no other RAW conversion software, including Silkypix has.

It can, for example, read directly the K-7's various JPEG settings embedded in the RAW file and use the data as default for RAW processing, if you so choose. Examples are in-camera shadow correction, lens abberation correction, CA correction.
In fact, these features are the main reason I still reach back to use the PDCU now and then.
07-28-2010, 09:38 AM   #115
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QuoteOriginally posted by kittykat46 Quote
Since you keep repeating the statement "Pentax DCU - aka SilkyPix", I have to state categorily that it is not correct to term it so.

I use Silkypix Pro all the time, and also have the Pentax DCU version 4 installed.

The Pentax DCU is, of course, based on Silkypix, as the CD-ROM label says, but they are quite different software.

The user interface is totally different, to start with, so it definitely will not feel like the same software. Many controls are different, and behave somewhat differently.
Silkypix has many capabilities which the DCU doesn't, and it also renders Pentax RAW files differently. Silkypix, for example, offers very complex highlight and shadow retention PP controls, which Pentax DCU doesn't. If a photo needs a lot of work to recover shadows or highlights, Silkypix is a superb tool.

Of course, Silkypix is a paid software, and somewhat pricey for the Pro Version.

On the other hand, the Pentax DCU has quite a number of features which are specifically tuned to the K-7, which no other RAW conversion software, including Silkypix has.

It can, for example, read directly the K-7's various JPEG settings embedded in the RAW file and use the data as default for RAW processing, if you so choose. Examples are in-camera shadow correction, lens abberation correction, CA correction.
In fact, these features are the main reason I still reach back to use the PDCU now and then.
Thank you for that correction -
I was under the impression that Pentax DCU was based on SilkyPix
and even though the UI may have been different and some features may well be used differently -
the basic fundamental engine would be very similar?

However in light of what you say -
I thank you for showing us and confirming that SilkyPix proper will also do the same/similar thing to Pentax DCU (based on SilkyPix) -
so now we can say definitely that SikyPix will do the white grey point thing in either the Pentax DCU guise or in its paid full Pro form.

So the current list of S/W which can salvage the awkward photo with a simple selection of white or grey point are:

Pentax DCU (based on SilkyPix) will work on RAW/DNG or JPG
SilkyPix (proper paid for Pro edition) shown on the JPG (but I'm pretty sure it'll also work on the RAW/DNG - could I please impose on you to confirm that?)
Bibble 5 works on the RAW/DNG.

Thank you.
07-28-2010, 10:49 AM   #116
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QuoteOriginally posted by mpodesta Quote
Quick run through lightroom 3 (I just started to learn lightroom 1 week ago)
Used custom WB and used the drummers shirt as the neutral, then shifted the tint away from the green end.
I could do a bit more in CS5 on the colors, but it was a quicky
Thank you - that's a good try, especially since it's LightRoom 3 -
I too could not get to a natural looking shot - the problem as I saw it was the severe lack of green components in the shot - any recovery using a white or grey point such as on the T-shirt basically involves the addition of green which was not in the scene.

Backing off the green means the re-introduction of magenta which is the opposite to green on the color wheel - so it appears that Adobe in its LightRoom and ACR (Adobe Camera RAW) forms cannot quite do the white /grey point balanace trick as well as Pentax DCU (based on SilkyPix), SilkyPix proper and Bibble 5.

However I would really be interested in your further manipulations using CS5 if a more natural looking shot could be achieved.

Perhaps it's not as difficult as I initially thought?
07-28-2010, 02:29 PM   #117
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Heading out for a bit this evening, but this is what I was able to get in about 15 min or so going back and forth from CS5 to lightroom and vice verse

I adjusted the performers in "batches" because global adjustments of the colors would better some and harm others

The front 2 and the back 3



Edit: this was done using the DNG file only
07-28-2010, 04:28 PM   #118
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QuoteOriginally posted by mpodesta Quote
Heading out for a bit this evening, but this is what I was able to get in about 15 min or so going back and forth from CS5 to lightroom and vice verse
I adjusted the performers in "batches" because global adjustments of the colors would better some and harm others
The front 2 and the back 3
Edit: this was done using the DNG file only
This is kind of what I had to do with ACR (Adobe Camera RAW) 5.6 and PS Elements 7.0 using the white point (eyedropper) in ACR could only address part of the cast but the rest of the photo turned too green. Then using the similar white point (remove cast) would result in something that wasn't quite there still - then using color balance I just could not get it to where it looked "natural".

If you look at the results that kittykat46 got in post #106 using SilkyPix Pro 4.1 and that by simico in Post #109 using Bibble 5.0
and my original result using Pentax DCU 4.11 (based on SilkyPix) in Post #23 then improved in Post #101 - those were just using the white/grey point on the bassist's T-shirt and the results are pretty acceptable - I do realize the lighting has turned green - but as an overall picture there are no real detrimental effects/references that makes one think this is manipulated and those lights were not green in the first place.



I really do appreciate your efforts in this you are getting better results than I managed with ACR and PS Elements - this might be because LightRoom is somewaht better - but more likely that you are putting more effort than I probably would have the patience for.

Many thanks - if you think you can further improve that shot -
would love to see the results........
07-28-2010, 05:54 PM   #119
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I'll give it more of a go tomorrow when I get back from my trip.

Just trying to give it my best efforts because the more I try on this, the better I will be at over coming the same issues with my own photos.

I just started to get into photography this year and just bought CS5 and lightroom last week, before that I've never touched a photo-shop program in my life
07-29-2010, 12:20 AM   #120
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QuoteOriginally posted by mpodesta Quote
Just trying to give it my best efforts because the more I try on this, the better I will be at over coming the same issues with my own photos.
I just started to get into photography this year and just bought CS5 and lightroom last week, before that I've never touched a photo-shop program in my life
Appreciate you doing this, and considering how little time you've had in LR and PS these are fine efforts - I hope other more experienced users of LightRoom and/or PhotoShop will chime in a make suggestions on how recover these photos.

In the meantime I wanted to see how the SilkyPix Pro 4.1 by kittykat46 in post #106 and Bibble 5.0 simico in Post #109 - recoveries
would look after some minimal pp similar to what I did with the Pentax DCU/SilkyPix 4.11 recovery. I used my own image as a sort of reference -
and used enhance lighting (fill-flash and enhance shadow)
then a bit of brightness/contrast as a fine adjustment
and standard sharpening - on both pics I found the flesh tone was a bit pale after those manipulations and had to use color balance to add a bit of red to the mix.

SilkyPix Pro 4.1 by kittykat46 (in post #106)


Bibble 5.0 simico (in post #109)


On the upper - SilkyPix Pro version I had to increase the saturation a bit as the colors were a bit paler (note the more saturated blue on the jeans).

Notice in the lower Bibble 5.0 version there is just a hint more of the additional red - look at the bassist's jeans and the keyboardist's shirt (extreme right).

But both of these now look pretty good to my eyes and I'd be happy with either.

However if we compare these with the Pentax DCU/SilkyPix version - there is a noticable difference when they are next to each other -



the lights are less green, the colors are more saturated - and this is despite increasing the saturation in the SilkyPix Pro version -
the color balance in comparison also seems better -
but like I said I am impressed that any software can even recover to this kind of "natural" looking shot -
all three are more than acceptable - and people with more experience with SilkyPix Pro and Bibble may well be able to do better than my cursory attempts at enhancement.

The Pentax DCU version had very little/minimal enhancement only enhance lighting, brightness/contrast and sharpening - no color balance or saturation adjustments.

So perhaps as kittykat46 has suggested Pentax DCU is using a tweaked version of SilkyPix engine that may have been optimized for Pentax dSLR characteristics?

Last edited by UnknownVT; 07-29-2010 at 08:06 AM.
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