Samsung Sensor-is the K7 the last ?

lesmore49 · 03-27-2010, 04:38 PM

My understanding is that with the KX, Pentax went back to Sony for it's sensor.

I don't claim to read the future but I wonder if Pentax will continue to use Sony. My view is that they will.

I also am thinking that the Pentax' alliance with Samsung seems to be over.

What's your opinion ?

older not wiser · 03-28-2010, 11:45 AM

Pentax went with Kodak for the 645, so maybe that it a long term tie up.
I agree with you that the collaboration with Samsung seems to over. I think that Samsung got more out of it than Pentax did.
But at the end of the day its all speculation. Hoya seems to like to play its cards close to its chest, so its anyone's guess.

SteveM · 03-28-2010, 01:38 PM

I wish kodak would release a true 35mm FF sensor...

Laurentiu Cristofor · 03-28-2010, 01:40 PM

Pentax went with Kodak for the 645D because Sony doesn't produce sensors that big. In the next APS camera, I expect we'll see a Sony sensor again.

Samsung is still using their sensor in their new EVIL camera.

zackspeed · 03-29-2010, 06:46 PM

Why new Sensor?
Today i played with the Samsung NX 10,it uses the K-7 Sensor.
But @3200 asa it looks little better in noise than my K-7.
So,it looks that the Sensor could have a lot of reserves?

Wheatfield · 03-29-2010, 07:41 PM

Originally posted by zackspeed

Why new Sensor?
Today i played with the Samsung NX 10,it uses the K-7 Sensor.
But @3200 asa it looks little better in noise than my K-7.
So,it looks that the Sensor could have a lot of reserves?

Was it's lack of noise at the expense of fine detail though?
Pentax seems to have gone the route of resolution above all other parameters with their noise reduction.

Jodokast96 · 03-29-2010, 08:04 PM

Originally posted by smc

I wish kodak would release a true 35mm FF sensor...

They did. It's in the Leica M9. KODAK CCD Image Sensor Powers New LEICA M9 Digital Camera

knoxploration · 04-02-2010, 05:44 PM

Originally posted by zackspeed

Today i played with the Samsung NX 10,it uses the K-7 Sensor.

I *thought* I'd read the NX10 was based around the same two-channel sensor used in the K20D (or at least, a development of that sensor), rather than the four-channel sensor from the K-7.

Do you know otherwise?

Danny Delcambre · 04-02-2010, 06:44 PM

Is Kodak made from Germany? I am not sure. I guess Kodak is less than 100 years. Right?
I am curious how about CCD and CMOS. Which best? I heard CMOS is better than CCD.

ordinaryimages · 04-02-2010, 06:45 PM

"Samsung is still using their sensor in their new EVIL camera"

All the time I thought the EVIL sensor was the one in my K7...good riddance.

zackspeed · 04-04-2010, 07:18 AM

K-7 and NX 10 Sensor is the same Type but different Lensstruktur and NX 10 is only a 2 Channelversion.
Sensorbase is the same,like K20 and K-7.
Only modified versions.

knoxploration · 04-04-2010, 06:33 PM

Originally posted by zackspeed

K-7 and NX 10 Sensor is the same Type but different Lensstruktur and NX 10 is only a 2 Channelversion.
Sensorbase is the same,like K20 and K-7.
Only modified versions.

That's what I was thinking - so the NX10 is more closely related to the older K20D sensor, not the newer K-7 sensor. Similar designs, but with some fairly important changes (which AFAIK were what led to the K-7 having slightly reduced high ISO / dynamic range performance vs. the K20D).

Hence one would expect the K-7 to have less high ISO / dynamic range potential than the NX10 also, and the NX10's performance wouldn't be an indicator of potential headroom for improvement in the K-7 (as was suggested earlier in this thread).

Unsinkable II · 04-05-2010, 11:27 PM

Originally posted by zackspeed

Why new Sensor?
Today i played with the Samsung NX 10,it uses the K-7 Sensor.
But @3200 asa it looks little better in noise than my K-7.
So,it looks that the Sensor could have a lot of reserves?

A backlit sensor would seem to inherently have more reserves, so going with Sony's Exmor would look like the better bet...

**Rondec** · 04-06-2010, 04:09 AM

Is there an Exmor that has the same pixel count as the K7 and similar video capabilities? I am not being sarcastic, just wondering. I hardly see Pentax putting a sensor in the K7 sequel that can't do 1080 HD video at 30 fps. Not that video is that important to me personally, but it seems that it is the big thing selling cameras right now (look at the T2i).

knoxploration · 04-06-2010, 09:55 AM

Originally posted by Unsinkable II

A backlit sensor would seem to inherently have more reserves, so going with Sony's Exmor would look like the better bet...

If you're talking backside illuminated, that's Exmor R, not Exmor.

Backside illuminated sensors are not a relevant technology for DSLRs. Their positives are outweighed by their negatives at APS-C size. For one thing, they're more expensive to make due to lower yields, and more fragile because the wafer must be thinner.

More importantly though, they provide very little benefit at DSLR scale. All they're doing is moving the circuitry from the light sensitive side of the chip to the reverse side, which leaves a little more space for light gathering on the active side. Thing is, that can bring a significant gain in a small, high-resolution, high pixel density compact camera chip, because there the wiring takes up a significant portion of the surface area. For a large APS-C chip, though, the wiring isn't proportionally greater in area for each pixel than in the compact camera chip. The wiring covers a much, much lower percentage of an APS-C chip's active surface, meaning that the total saving to be made with an APS-C BSI chip is much, much less.

Simply put, at APS-C scale, the disadvantages in cost and fragility far outweigh the very slight performance gain on offer, at least with current pixel densities. (If we get up to resolutions nearer 100 megapixels on APS-C (please God, no!) then BSI might be applicable on such large chips.

Originally posted by Rondec

Is there an Exmor that has the same pixel count as the K7 and similar video capabilities? I am not being sarcastic, just wondering. I hardly see Pentax putting a sensor in the K7 sequel that can't do 1080 HD video at 30 fps. Not that video is that important to me personally, but it seems that it is the big thing selling cameras right now (look at the T2i).

A more important issue is that Exmor R chips aren't available in APS-C size, for the reasons stated above. ;-)

03-27-2010, 04:38 PM	#1
lesmore49 Pentaxian Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Western Canada Posts: 12,345	Samsung Sensor-is the K7 the last ? My understanding is that with the KX, Pentax went back to Sony for it's sensor. I don't claim to read the future but I wonder if Pentax will continue to use Sony. My view is that they will. I also am thinking that the Pentax' alliance with Samsung seems to be over. What's your opinion ?

04-02-2010, 06:45 PM	#10
ordinaryimages New Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Kentucky Bluegrass Photos: Gallery Posts: 10	EVIL sensor "Samsung is still using their sensor in their new EVIL camera" All the time I thought the EVIL sensor was the one in my K7...good riddance.

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03-28-2010, 11:45 AM	#2
older not wiser Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: East Yorkshire Posts: 120	Pentax went with Kodak for the 645, so maybe that it a long term tie up. I agree with you that the collaboration with Samsung seems to over. I think that Samsung got more out of it than Pentax did. But at the end of the day its all speculation. Hoya seems to like to play its cards close to its chest, so its anyone's guess.

03-28-2010, 01:38 PM	#3
SteveM Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Vancouver Island, BC, Canada Photos: Gallery Posts: 3,294	I wish kodak would release a true 35mm FF sensor...

03-28-2010, 01:40 PM	#4
Laurentiu Cristofor Banned Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: WA Photos: Albums Posts: 3,055	Pentax went with Kodak for the 645D because Sony doesn't produce sensors that big. In the next APS camera, I expect we'll see a Sony sensor again. Samsung is still using their sensor in their new EVIL camera.

03-29-2010, 06:46 PM	#5
zackspeed Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 527	Why new Sensor? Today i played with the Samsung NX 10,it uses the K-7 Sensor. But @3200 asa it looks little better in noise than my K-7. So,it looks that the Sensor could have a lot of reserves?

03-29-2010, 07:41 PM	#6
Wheatfield Moderator Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: The wheatfields of Canada Posts: 15,981	Originally posted by zackspeed Why new Sensor? Today i played with the Samsung NX 10,it uses the K-7 Sensor. But @3200 asa it looks little better in noise than my K-7. So,it looks that the Sensor could have a lot of reserves? Was it's lack of noise at the expense of fine detail though? Pentax seems to have gone the route of resolution above all other parameters with their noise reduction.

03-29-2010, 08:04 PM	#7
Jodokast96 Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Erial, NJ USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,134	Originally posted by smc I wish kodak would release a true 35mm FF sensor... They did. It's in the Leica M9. KODAK CCD Image Sensor Powers New LEICA M9 Digital Camera

04-02-2010, 05:44 PM	#8
knoxploration Veteran Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Knoxville, Tennessee Posts: 846	Originally posted by zackspeed Today i played with the Samsung NX 10,it uses the K-7 Sensor. I thought I'd read the NX10 was based around the same two-channel sensor used in the K20D (or at least, a development of that sensor), rather than the four-channel sensor from the K-7. Do you know otherwise?

04-02-2010, 06:44 PM	#9
Danny Delcambre Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 550	Is Kodak made from Germany? I am not sure. I guess Kodak is less than 100 years. Right? I am curious how about CCD and CMOS. Which best? I heard CMOS is better than CCD.

04-04-2010, 07:18 AM	#11
zackspeed Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 527	K-7 and NX 10 Sensor is the same Type but different Lensstruktur and NX 10 is only a 2 Channelversion. Sensorbase is the same,like K20 and K-7. Only modified versions.

04-04-2010, 06:33 PM	#12
knoxploration Veteran Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Knoxville, Tennessee Posts: 846	Originally posted by zackspeed K-7 and NX 10 Sensor is the same Type but different Lensstruktur and NX 10 is only a 2 Channelversion. Sensorbase is the same,like K20 and K-7. Only modified versions. That's what I was thinking - so the NX10 is more closely related to the older K20D sensor, not the newer K-7 sensor. Similar designs, but with some fairly important changes (which AFAIK were what led to the K-7 having slightly reduced high ISO / dynamic range performance vs. the K20D). Hence one would expect the K-7 to have less high ISO / dynamic range potential than the NX10 also, and the NX10's performance wouldn't be an indicator of potential headroom for improvement in the K-7 (as was suggested earlier in this thread).

04-05-2010, 11:27 PM	#13
Unsinkable II Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 1,352	Originally posted by zackspeed Why new Sensor? Today i played with the Samsung NX 10,it uses the K-7 Sensor. But @3200 asa it looks little better in noise than my K-7. So,it looks that the Sensor could have a lot of reserves? A backlit sensor would seem to inherently have more reserves, so going with Sony's Exmor would look like the better bet...

04-06-2010, 04:09 AM	#14
Rondec Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Gladys, Virginia Photos: Gallery Posts: 27,653	Is there an Exmor that has the same pixel count as the K7 and similar video capabilities? I am not being sarcastic, just wondering. I hardly see Pentax putting a sensor in the K7 sequel that can't do 1080 HD video at 30 fps. Not that video is that important to me personally, but it seems that it is the big thing selling cameras right now (look at the T2i).

04-06-2010, 09:55 AM	#15
knoxploration Veteran Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Knoxville, Tennessee Posts: 846	Originally posted by Unsinkable II A backlit sensor would seem to inherently have more reserves, so going with Sony's Exmor would look like the better bet... If you're talking backside illuminated, that's Exmor R, not Exmor. Backside illuminated sensors are not a relevant technology for DSLRs. Their positives are outweighed by their negatives at APS-C size. For one thing, they're more expensive to make due to lower yields, and more fragile because the wafer must be thinner. More importantly though, they provide very little benefit at DSLR scale. All they're doing is moving the circuitry from the light sensitive side of the chip to the reverse side, which leaves a little more space for light gathering on the active side. Thing is, that can bring a significant gain in a small, high-resolution, high pixel density compact camera chip, because there the wiring takes up a significant portion of the surface area. For a large APS-C chip, though, the wiring isn't proportionally greater in area for each pixel than in the compact camera chip. The wiring covers a much, much lower percentage of an APS-C chip's active surface, meaning that the total saving to be made with an APS-C BSI chip is much, much less. Simply put, at APS-C scale, the disadvantages in cost and fragility far outweigh the very slight performance gain on offer, at least with current pixel densities. (If we get up to resolutions nearer 100 megapixels on APS-C (please God, no!) then BSI might be applicable on such large chips. Originally posted by Rondec Is there an Exmor that has the same pixel count as the K7 and similar video capabilities? I am not being sarcastic, just wondering. I hardly see Pentax putting a sensor in the K7 sequel that can't do 1080 HD video at 30 fps. Not that video is that important to me personally, but it seems that it is the big thing selling cameras right now (look at the T2i). A more important issue is that Exmor R chips aren't available in APS-C size, for the reasons stated above. ;-)