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03-31-2010, 12:35 AM   #1
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Lets try some ISO6400 with LR3 Beta...

Using a home grown noise processing method, I decided to give LR3 Beta a try with some K20D ISO6400 images I had lying around. Here some some early results(5-15 mins. of PP ea.):

First candidate under inadequate florescent lighting:

Crop:


Second candidate under infrared heater lighting:

Crop:


Third candidate very low lighting(IR heater cast):

Crop:



Conclusion... with results like these... just imagine what the Kx would be capable of!!!


03-31-2010, 12:39 AM   #2
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Tools used:

GordonB's RAW border correcter - correct high ISO tinge
LR3 Beta 2 - simply the worlds best noise management engine(period!)
Photoshop CS4
Niksoft Dfine - the only noise debanding plugin that ever actually worked!

That about does it.
Cheers!
03-31-2010, 01:25 AM   #3
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Don't forget to tell people to dissable sharpening and noise reduction in LR.
I personally hate the lightroom interface at the moment. its so against my workflow.
Doing the same gordon tinge correction, LR and a batch noise reduction in Noiseware gets the same as Dfine for me. I even tried capture One against lightroom. I have to say that LR was better for noise reduction.
Speaking of the K-x, I do not think it has that much more headroom than the K20D after the tinge correction.
03-31-2010, 07:44 AM   #4
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LR3B2's NR is really amazing, I have to say.

03-31-2010, 08:31 AM   #5
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QuoteOriginally posted by JohnBee Quote
LR3 Beta 2 - simply the worlds best noise management engine(period!)
Very impressive.

Can you please tell me how you used the noise reduction settings in LR3b2?
Did you have some settings you used, or did you adjust by eye?



Could you try using LR3b2 with a K7 sample test image from Imaging-Resource -
K7hSLI6400_NR_OFF.DNG (noise reduction OFF DNG sample)
might be interesting to compare it with:
K7hSLI6400_NR_MED.DNG (the in camera default medium NR version)
03-31-2010, 08:41 AM   #6
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Really nice!
03-31-2010, 08:52 AM   #7
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Wow! Guess I'll be downloading LR3 one of these days.

Good to see what's possible.
03-31-2010, 09:26 AM   #8
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QuoteOriginally posted by UnknownVT Quote
Very impressive.

Can you please tell me how you used the noise reduction settings in LR3b2?
Did you have some settings you used, or did you adjust by eye?
Yes... my approach is simple. Apply as little image processing as possible in RAW development in order to retain detail.

Aside from the shooting methods used in high ISO shooting, it is quite easy to visualize which RAW processing control(in LR3) have an negative impact on the fidelity of an image. ie. sharpening(very destructive to image grain) including detail retention controllers(as shown in your image) and so on and so forth.

In short... if you zoom up to 100% on the original image, you will see first hand how the individual controllers affect the quality of your image. Something I like to refer to as the grain. Typically, we would want to avoid all processes that would alter(raise, lower or accentuate) the grain or texture of an image.

Why? because sharpening and detail is best applied selectively, whereas global detail enhancement methods will "usually" result in impacting the entire scene(grain and color gradients included).

With this in mind, I used LR3 to pre-process and export RAW images into Photoshop CS4 for compositing. Therefore... all I did was use LR3 as a substitute for ACR with Photoshop. So by taking an the image and creating a series of NR adjusted layers that would be exported to CS4(CTRL+ALT+E), I easily created a composite in photoshop from which to mask(brushing in each layer) into the final images shown here.

And though this may all sound a little long winded(in written form), I assure you, that it is both painless and quite easy to do when one is familiar with the method. I actually began to make a video tutorial of this method with the intent of posting on pentaxforums, but my personal time table has been so demanding lately and I haven't had the chance to do anything in way of finishing it.

Having said that, here is a short form rundown of what I did to produce these images:

1. GordonB's RAW Border corrector - To remove Megenta Cast in high ISO output
2. LR3 B2 - Used for basic adjustments(WB, Exposure, HL.Recovery, Black lvl, Contrast. etc etc) AND NR(Primary color, secondary lumi.)
3. Export to PS CS4 Layer - Used to composite and quick mask processed LR3 images(multiple samples of image typically produced)
4. Niksoft Dfine - Used to remove noise banding(the only effective tool to remove banding I've found. Masked in)

Well, that about covers it I think.
Let me know if this makes any sense and/or answered your initial question.

John

03-31-2010, 09:44 AM   #9
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Posted these at Canikonforums already, but these are with about 40 on the Luminance setting in LR3b2 NR:

D700, ISO12800, 1/4sec:


D700, ISO12800, 1/25sec:
03-31-2010, 09:45 AM   #10
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I believe the main contricutor to the awesome results here is your step 3 which correlates to "stacking". Stacking is the way excellent results are obtained in astrophotography. Mind you with the K20D, GBG's RBC is also essential at high ISOs.
03-31-2010, 09:46 AM   #11
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QuoteOriginally posted by JohnBee Quote
Yes... my approach is simple. Apply as little image processing as possible in RAW development in order to retain detail.

short form rundown of what I did to produce these images:

1. GordonB's RAW Border corrector - To remove Megenta Cast in high ISO output
2. LR3 B2 - Used for basic adjustments(WB, Exposure, HL.Recovery, Black lvl, Contrast. etc etc) AND NR(Primary color, secondary lumi.)
3. Export to PS CS4 Layer - Used to composite and quick mask processed LR3 images(multiple samples of image typically produced)
4. Niksoft Dfine - Used to remove noise banding(the only effective tool to remove banding I've found. Masked in)

Well, that about covers it I think.
Let me know if this makes any sense and/or answered your initial question.
That was extremely helpful - thank you.

Would you consider the NR in LR3b2 to be the primary noise reduction
or did the other processing in PS CS4 have some effect too.

I understand that Niksoft Dfine was primarily to remove any banding -
but did that also have any additional effect on noise reduction?

Just an aside: do you have PS CS4 "integrated" with LR3b2 so you can call it up from within LR -
or do you simply just open PS CS4 as a separate application to work on the developed files from LR?

from the LR3beta View Help PDF (9.2MB)
" Lightroom provides several ways to edit photos in Photoshop CS4. You can simply edit them in their current format,
or open them as a Smart Object. You can also merge a series of shots into a panorama, merge to HDR, or open two or
more photos as one layered image in Photoshop. When you save edits to a photo in Photoshop, Lightroom
automatically imports the new photo into the catalog. See “Open photos in Photoshop or Photoshop Elements” on
page 128 and “Edit photos in Photoshop” on page 130.
To edit your photo using Photoshop or Photoshop Elements from within Lightroom, you must have one of those
applications installed on your computer. Then, follow these steps:
1. Select a photo to edit.
In the Lightroom Library or Develop module, select the photo you want to edit. Then, choose Photo > Edit In > Edit
In Adobe Photoshop or Edit In Adobe Photoshop Elements. If you’re opening a camera raw file in Photoshop CS4,
Photoshop opens the photo directly. If you’re opening a TIFF, JPEG, or PSD file, choose to open a copy of the photo
with Lightroom adjustments applied, or open a copy of the original photo.
2. Edit in Photoshop or Photoshop Elements.
Perform your desired edits in Photoshop or Photoshop Elements, and when you’re ready to commit to them, choose
File > Save.
3. Return to Lightroom.
Switch back to Lightroom. In the Library Grid view, a new version of your photo appears next to the original. The new
photo contains the edits you made in Photoshop or Photoshop Elements. The original photo is untouched.
Important: When saving from Photoshop or Photoshop Elements, be sure to turn on the Maximize Compatibility option
so that Lightroom can read the images. Photoshop CS3 and later automatically save PSD files from Lightroom with
maximum compatibility.
"

I would think your video tutorial would be a boon to many.

EDIT to ADD -

Just saw this
QuoteOriginally posted by jbinpg Quote
I believe the main contricutor to the awesome results here is your step 3 which correlates to "stacking". Stacking is the way excellent results are obtained in astrophotography. Mind you with the K20D, GBG's RBC is also essential at high ISOs.
This is very interesting that layers (stacking) may be actually contributing to the noise reduction.
03-31-2010, 10:30 AM   #12
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QuoteOriginally posted by jbinpg Quote
I believe the main contricutor to the awesome results here is your step 3 which correlates to "stacking". Stacking is the way excellent results are obtained in astrophotography. Mind you with the K20D, GBG's RBC is also essential at high ISOs.
Yes, in this case the use of composites definitely is the main contributor in final IQ. Though I'm not sure if this particular techniques qualifies as stacking per say as it doesn't make use of an averaged mean or median calculation in the process. and unfortunately... the image processing I used here isn't quite as exciting as that.

At best, what I do is generate a series of layers(same image) with adjustments specific to each area/zone within the scene. This way, I can effectively target each layer accordingly(NR for subject layer, debanding for background, sharpening layer etc etc) and mask in a final composite.

Which is all very synonymous with using the brush in NR processing, however in this case, it allows for fully independent image processing(NR, sharpness, color etc) in contrast to the usual one size fits all approach.
03-31-2010, 10:41 AM   #13
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QuoteOriginally posted by UnknownVT Quote
That was extremely helpful - thank you.

Would you consider the NR in LR3b2 to be the primary noise reduction
or did the other processing in PS CS4 have some effect too.
Yes absolutely...
I used PS CS4 for everything else including debanding which is also a form for noise reduction.

QuoteQuote:
I understand that Niksoft Dfine was primarily to remove any banding -
but did that also have any additional effect on noise reduction?
Yes it definitely does(Since debanding is very aggressive function) it becomes very important to apply such edits on a layer to mask-in effects only where they need to be applied. And in some cases, where banding appears on the subject(usually due to poor shooting), it may even become necessary to mask it in specifically on the horizontal artifact in question. Which isn't ideal(by far) but it does work...

QuoteQuote:
Just an aside: do you have PS CS4 "integrated" with LR3b2 so you can call it up from within LR -
or do you simply just open PS CS4 as a separate application to work on the developed files from LR?
Yes, I create all of my images in LR then export them to PS using the integration tool.

QuoteQuote:
I would think your video tutorial would be a boon to many.
I sort of gave-up trying on that, but my recent LR3 experience seems to of breathed new fire into the project. It'll take an entire weekend to get finished, but if there's enough interest, I might be able to force myself to do it.
03-31-2010, 10:51 AM   #14
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QuoteOriginally posted by deadwolfbones Quote
Posted these at Canikonforums already, but these are with about 40 on the Luminance setting in LR3b2 NR:
Nothing but respect for the D700...
03-31-2010, 01:41 PM   #15
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QuoteOriginally posted by UnknownVT Quote
Just saw this

QuoteOriginally posted by jbinpg Quote
I believe the main contricutor to the awesome results here is your step 3 which correlates to "stacking". Stacking is the way excellent results are obtained in astrophotography. Mind you with the K20D, GBG's RBC is also essential at high ISOs.
This is very interesting that layers (stacking) may be actually contributing to the noise reduction.
From my reading of your workflow, I'm pretty sure stacking has nothing to do with it (and that jbinpg simply misunderstood your post).

You can't "stack" one image on itself to reduce noise, because that's not how stacking works. The point of stacking is that it reduces random noise by averaging it out across multiple exposures. The signal (your subject) remains identical in all shots, and the random noise changes from shot to shot. By averaging them out, you remove much of the random noise element without adversely affecting your subject. At least, so long as it is static -- or if it's moving so long as you want motion blur, and wouldn't have issues caused by the brief delay between shots (which could cause bright moving light sources to come out as a faint dashed line in the final image).

That's not what you've said you're doing though. Your step three refers to exporting a single image from Lightroom to a layer in CS4 and working on it, then making whatever various output images you like from that single source image, right?

If so, then you're not stacking. If I'm misunderstanding and you're combining multiple separate exposures from the camera into one final output image though, then yes you're stacking. ;-)

Hope this makes sense!
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