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04-07-2010, 07:37 AM   #16
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I'm not sure I understand the problem here but I think the OP is complaining because the camera doesn't choose settings automatically in manual mode.

04-07-2010, 07:47 AM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by dlacouture Quote
I think the OP would want the green button in Hyper-manual with PK-m lenses mode to follow the same principle as the Av mode, where iso and speed are set following a set of rules.
Lowell, you nailed it with your second guess:



I find this very logical myself, but a little hard to be easily implemented, from the user point of view : where do you enable Auto-iso for green button in Hyper-manual???
If you use the standard ISO screen, it's a little misleading, as the iso is always manually set in HypM...
How about a new function all together, and one of my favourites of all time

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what we all want is for the camera to do and/or photograph what we think we want not what we set and/or see.
04-07-2010, 07:47 AM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by Parallax Quote
I'm not sure I understand the problem here but I think the OP is complaining because the camera doesn't choose settings automatically in manual mode.
And a brilliant use of italics to make the point!

I love good typography.
04-07-2010, 07:51 AM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ira Quote
And a brilliant use of italics to make the point!

I love good typography.
Thanks, Ira. Poorly constructed written communication I tolerate well not.

04-07-2010, 04:05 PM   #20
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I'm a little surprised at the passions this issue raises.

It is my understanding that other manufacturers allow you to use auto-ISO in M mode. I learned this when asking on photo.net if there was anything like TAv on the K20D. Apparently you can do the same thing on certain Nikon cameras: you just do it right in M, instead of having to switch to a different notch on the mode dial. Kind of took the wind out of my sails. I used to think TAv was really neat.

This "that's not fully manual" idea amuses me. First, I assume that auto-ISO in M mode (say, on the Nikons) is an option, not a requirement. If you never USE auto-ISO in M, then you're just as much a stud as the poor schmuck who's using a camera that doesn't even allow auto-ISO in M and therefore has no choice. In fact, you're MORE of a stud, because you're doing it by choice! In other words, if you set the aperture manually, and the shutter manually, and the ISO manually, then you're in manual control of the camera, and to deny this is just silly.

I'm even more amused by the claim that letting the camera set your ISO is "as far from manual as you can get." No, green mode is as far from manual as you can get, and P is pretty close. (Does the K-x have a green mode? I assume it does but I don't know.) I hate the scene modes, but they are a bit more manual than green mode: after all, you have to pick the flower icon, or the mountain icon, where in green mode, you just point and shoot.

*

There are a lot of other things about our modern cameras that could strike me as proof of modern man's wimpiness, if I was in a bad mood. A light meter in the camera? Sissification! How do you know exactly what the camera is metering? And besides, it's probably not very accurate. Anybody who relies on the pathetic little meter in his camera when using M mode, isn't going full manual.

I'm only half kidding. When I started in photography, I shot for about 10 years using cameras that lacked built-in meters. That was back when I rolled my own film—seriously—processed my own film, made my own enlargements, and walked to school in the snow uphills both ways. OK, the bit about walking to school isn't true. Back then, aperture was set on the lens. No auto-focus. No zoom lenses. (They existed, but I didn't own one until about 1980.) Basically no changing ISO while shooting a roll. I either guessed at the exposure and hoped for the best, or used a light meter. And of course there was absolutely no way you could review the shot you just took and study the histogram or the blinking highlights, then adjust your exposure. THAT was manual. We were real men. M mode today? There's no M mode today. You're looking at it wrong. That's not an M, it's a W, and it stands for Wimp mode.

There was a gentle tinge of sarcasm there at the end of the previous paragraph. I'm funnin' with those who wouldn't buy a camera that had auto-ISO as an option in M mode.

*

The K20D (and I presume the K-7) allow for +/- EC in M mode. Does that somehow taint these cameras? I don't think so. The presence of the green button on the K10D/K20D and K-7 (which sets shutter and aperture for you in M) doesn't mean M isn't M. An option that makes something easier or automatic, isn't a bad thing if it doesn't get in your way.

Frankly, I do think it's 100% semantics. M mode means on your camera whatever the operating manual tells you it means. Denying this is like claiming that such-and-such a model of camera lacks an Av mode, because, well, on the model you're dissing, it's not called Av, it's called A. I don't care if the modes are called 0, 1, 2, 3 and 4. If 4 is the one where you get to control absolutely everything, that that's full manual.

The questions that matter are quite simply, (1) Will this camera allow me to control everything that I want to control? and (2) How do I exercise that control? If what you want to control is everything—shutter, aperture AND ISO—well, not to worry, because you can do it on every DSLR I have ever seen, although they don't all work exactly the same way.

The mode where you CAN control every aspect of the camera's exposure settings, that's M.

Will
04-07-2010, 04:43 PM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by WMBP Quote
I'm a little surprised at the passions this issue raises.

It is my understanding that other manufacturers allow you to use auto-ISO in M mode. I learned this when asking on photo.net if there was anything like TAv on the K20D. Apparently you can do the same thing on certain Nikon cameras: you just do it right in M, instead of having to switch to a different notch on the mode dial. Kind of took the wind out of my sails. I used to think TAv was really neat.

This "that's not fully manual" idea amuses me. First, I assume that auto-ISO in M mode (say, on the Nikons) is an option, not a requirement. If you never USE auto-ISO in M, then you're just as much a stud as the poor schmuck who's using a camera that doesn't even allow auto-ISO in M and therefore has no choice. In fact, you're MORE of a stud, because you're doing it by choice! In other words, if you set the aperture manually, and the shutter manually, and the ISO manually, then you're in manual control of the camera, and to deny this is just silly.

I'm even more amused by the claim that letting the camera set your ISO is "as far from manual as you can get." No, green mode is as far from manual as you can get, and P is pretty close. (Does the K-x have a green mode? I assume it does but I don't know.) I hate the scene modes, but they are a bit more manual than green mode: after all, you have to pick the flower icon, or the mountain icon, where in green mode, you just point and shoot.

*

There are a lot of other things about our modern cameras that could strike me as proof of modern man's wimpiness, if I was in a bad mood. A light meter in the camera? Sissification! How do you know exactly what the camera is metering? And besides, it's probably not very accurate. Anybody who relies on the pathetic little meter in his camera when using M mode, isn't going full manual.

I'm only half kidding. When I started in photography, I shot for about 10 years using cameras that lacked built-in meters. That was back when I rolled my own film—seriously—processed my own film, made my own enlargements, and walked to school in the snow uphills both ways. OK, the bit about walking to school isn't true. Back then, aperture was set on the lens. No auto-focus. No zoom lenses. (They existed, but I didn't own one until about 1980.) Basically no changing ISO while shooting a roll. I either guessed at the exposure and hoped for the best, or used a light meter. And of course there was absolutely no way you could review the shot you just took and study the histogram or the blinking highlights, then adjust your exposure. THAT was manual. We were real men. M mode today? There's no M mode today. You're looking at it wrong. That's not an M, it's a W, and it stands for Wimp mode.

There was a gentle tinge of sarcasm there at the end of the previous paragraph. I'm funnin' with those who wouldn't buy a camera that had auto-ISO as an option in M mode.

*

The K20D (and I presume the K-7) allow for +/- EC in M mode. Does that somehow taint these cameras? I don't think so. The presence of the green button on the K10D/K20D and K-7 (which sets shutter and aperture for you in M) doesn't mean M isn't M. An option that makes something easier or automatic, isn't a bad thing if it doesn't get in your way.

Frankly, I do think it's 100% semantics. M mode means on your camera whatever the operating manual tells you it means. Denying this is like claiming that such-and-such a model of camera lacks an Av mode, because, well, on the model you're dissing, it's not called Av, it's called A. I don't care if the modes are called 0, 1, 2, 3 and 4. If 4 is the one where you get to control absolutely everything, that that's full manual.

The questions that matter are quite simply, (1) Will this camera allow me to control everything that I want to control? and (2) How do I exercise that control? If what you want to control is everything—shutter, aperture AND ISO—well, not to worry, because you can do it on every DSLR I have ever seen, although they don't all work exactly the same way.

The mode where you CAN control every aspect of the camera's exposure settings, that's M.

Will
You basically used a ton of words here that can be easily refuted with just a few:

Having a camera choose your ISO is not manual by any stretch of the imagination.

If you want that, use an auto everything lens and you're cool.
04-07-2010, 06:12 PM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ira Quote
You basically used a ton of words here that can be easily refuted with just a few:
Ira,

What did I say that this refutes? I didn't deny that auto is auto. I didn't say that M with auto mode = M with the ISO set manually. I didn't deny that M with the option of auto-ISO would be slightly different from M without.

So I'm sorry, but I don't see what you refuted. And I still don't get your point at all.

Are you saying that the Nikon cameras that make auto-ISO an option in M mode, do NOT have a manual mode?


QuoteQuote:
Having a camera choose your ISO is not manual by any stretch of the imagination.
Maybe my imagination is stretchier than yours, but I'd say that, if you set TWO of the three settings, that's at least two-thirds manual. And if the very SAME mode lets you set ALL THREE of the exposure settings, then, when you use it that way, that's completely Manual. Q.E.D.



QuoteQuote:
If you want that, use an auto everything lens and you're cool.
Not sure how an "auto everything lens" would fit in here, but I think I understand the gibe you were trying to make. But surely, this is a false dichotomy, i.e. bad logic. You would limit me just two extreme options: (a) full manual everything—and I presume this includes no zoom, no auto-focus—on the one hand, and (b) green mode or auto-everything on the other. Fortunately, my camera is much more generous than you are. My camera has multiple modes, and as you move through the modes, you get varying degrees of control, from green mode (no manual control) to M (full manual control) and everything in between.

*

Back to the beginning...

The OP asked, "Why doesn't M allow auto-ISO?" I'm not going to review the entire thread, but I'm guessing your response to the OP was something along the lines of, "because if they let you use auto-ISO in M mode, then they couldn't call it M mode, because M means manual, and auto isn't manual."

Fine, if you want to think that. But it's not the right answer.

The right answer has two parts.

First Pentax cameras don't allow auto-ISO in M mode because, traditionally, M mode didn't allow auto-ISO. (Traditionally of course, auto-ISO didn't even exist.)

And second, Pentax cameras don't permit auto-ISO in M mode, because they simply don't. They just don't work that way. It's not a completely arbitrary decision, though. If you want to set the shutter and aperture but use auto-ISO, on some Pentax cameras, at least, you would use TAv. And some people would say that having TWO distinct modes here is better, because when you're in M mode on a Pentax K20D, you know for sure that your ISO is fixed at whatever it is. (A Nikon user who likes having the option of auto-ISO in M might offer a counter argument, of course. Which is why the best answer is, this is just the way it works.)

Just so you know: I shoot almost exclusively in M mode. I've done it all my life. I don't think this makes me a better person. I don't even think it makes me a better photographer than anybody else. An awful lot of pro photographers, better than I, live in Av mode, and even use auto-ISO when it's called for. Surely what matters, at the end of the day, is whether the photos we take are any good, not whether the camera we use has an implementation of M mode that somebody doesn't think is "valid."

I don't miss auto-ISO in M. I know how my camera works, and I can make it work the way I want. But gosh, if they decide, for the next new Pentax DSLR, to get rid of TAv and roll auto-ISO into M as an option, I'm certainly not switching to another kind of camera! I probably wouldn't even bother to write a strongly worded letter to the CEO of Pentax. I just won't use the auto-ISO option.

Now, if they don't let me set the ISO to a fixed value, THEN I'll start yelling.

Will
04-08-2010, 09:01 AM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by WMBP Quote
...............
This "that's not fully manual" idea amuses me. First, I assume that auto-ISO in M mode (say, on the Nikons) is an option, not a requirement. If you never USE auto-ISO in M, then you're just as much a stud as the poor schmuck who's using a camera that doesn't even allow auto-ISO in M and therefore has no choice. In fact, you're MORE of a stud, because you're doing it by choice! In other words, if you set the aperture manually, and the shutter manually, and the ISO manually, then you're in manual control of the camera, and to deny this is just silly.


Will
You are right, you are in manual mode at that point. No one is disputing that, but if on the Nikon, for example, you are letting the camera choose ISO automatically, you are NOT in manual, regardless of what the selector dial or menu says.

04-08-2010, 11:17 AM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by Parallax Quote
You are right, you are in manual mode at that point. No one is disputing that...
Actually, I think that is being disputed, but never mind...


QuoteQuote:
...but if on the Nikon, for example, you are letting the camera choose ISO automatically, you are NOT in manual, regardless of what the selector dial or menu says.
Jim,

What does it mean to be "in manual"?

It's obvious, at least to me, that there are TWO meanings in play here, both valid, so long as you don't confuse them. There's (1) the meaning that derives from the mode dial, and there's (2) the meaning that is simply descriptive of the settings actually in use, regardless of the mode dial.

(1) On every DSLR I know of, there's a mode dial, and there's an M on that dial. And although I haven't read too many different operating guides, I'd bet a nickel that every camera's user's guide calls that mode "Manual." On a camera where auto-ISO is an option within M mode, M (manual) simply has a slightly different meaning than it does on other cameras.

(2) Of course, if your camera allows auto-ISO when the mode dial is set to M (Manual), and if you actually use that option by enabling auto-ISO, then you are using that mode in a way that isn't, in the ordinary sense of the word, fully manual, even though you are certainly still in M (Manual) mode as you can easily ascertain by looking at the dial. On a K20D, things are less confusing, because M doesn't allow auto-ISO; there's a special mode for that (TAv) so we have a name for it. On a Nikon, there's no special word for it, but big deal. It's M with ISO-override or something. It doesn't need a name. It is what it is. All that matters is that users know how to use their camera.

This isn't that complicated. The word simply has two slightly different meanings, in different contexts, and you have to keep track of the context. That's why I agreed with whoever said this is all semantics.

This silly debate is no different from a debate about the meaning of P mode. I can see some user of the K-x insisting that P means one thing (Program), while some user of the K20D or K-7 thinks the K-x user is an idiot, because on a K20D or K-7, P is slightly different (Hyperprogram). They're both right within their own contexts, but they're wrong when try to object to some other camera's slightly different use of the term.

Will
04-10-2010, 06:16 AM   #25
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Did you know that by pressing the OK button you can use the front wheel to adjust ISO in manual mode?
04-10-2010, 12:27 PM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by ghillindy1 Quote
Did you know that by pressing the OK button you can use the front wheel to adjust ISO in manual mode?
Ah yes, the magic manual ISO adjustment, no menus necessary. Great stuff!

Meanwhile, back to Auto ISO in manual mode:

If something is Auto in a Manual world, is it still Manual?

Mark Twain asked, "If you count the tail, how many legs does a dog have?"
And he answered, "Just four. Calling a tail a leg doesn't make it a leg."

If the camera controls a decisive parameter, that's an Auto mode, not Manual. Manual means that the shooter has control. The shooter may ask the camera's advise (ie, press the Green button for a meter reading), and may go with that advise, or override it. It's still manual control, the shooter's responsibility, not the camera's robot brain.

There's a parallel in JPEG vs RAW output. Many shooters choose JPEG only, and tweak the image settings to suit their taste, but the image is rendered by the cam's limited-capacity (dumber than an ant) robot brain. They've set the parms for automatic processing. Many other shooters choose RAW only, leave as many camera settings as possible to default or neutral values, and completely develop the picture in PP. Minimal auto processing there -- manual output.

I go halfway: I'll set the image parms for a shot, but choose RAW only output. Those settings are embedded in the RAW file; they're effectively suggestions for me on how to develop the RAW image, and I can accept or override those suggestions. It's sort of like auto-assist manual output. I make the decisions; I'm in cortrol; it's my responsibility. If I f*ck it up, I can't blame the robot brain.
04-10-2010, 12:52 PM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by RioRico Quote
If something is Auto in a Manual world, is it still Manual?

See my last preceding post. Answer to your question is, Yes or No, depending on which of the two meanings of "Manual" you want.

I continue to insist that this is NOT THAT DARN COMPLICATED.

If you put the camera into M mode, and the operating manual tells that you that M mode is "Manual," then no matter what happens while you shoot in that mode, you are in M = Manual mode ON THE CAMERA. To say otherwise is either (a) to confuse things, or (b) to argue for the sake of arguing.

If some element of M mode on your camera happens to have an auto feature (like auto-ISO) then, in the non-camera-specific sense, of course, you're not controlling the camera in a completely "manual" way. This too is plain enough that a child can understand it.

The whole controversy here arises because we are confusing these two ways of using the words. Keep 'em straight and this thread comes to a quick, painless and most welcome death.

The camera makers get to call things what they want. Nikon I think calls it S, Pentax calls it Tv. I like S better, because it stands for "Shutter"and I'm still not sure what Tv stands for, but it doesn't matter one bit, because I KNOW what Pentax's Tv means. And if putting auto-ISO under M mode makes good sense—and I think it does—what would YOU do if you ran Nikon? Abandon the good idea because some pedant in your marketing department couldn't understand the difference between a technical meaning and an ordinary language meaning? Not a very smart pedant, after all.

Nobody's going to release a DSLR that does not have an M mode. Nikon's given its M mode an auto-ISO option. OPTION. Pentax, with perhaps an equally strong justification, decided to break that out into a separate notch on the mode dial (TAv). But Pentax does something nifty at the other end of the mode dial, giving P (program) mode, which is traditionally a pretty fully auto mode, the ability to become "Hyperprogram" so that you can use P with very nearly as much control as you'd have if you were in M. Fine. As long as you understand what the camera's settings do, there shouldn't be a problem.

I'm sorry, this is my last post on this, I promise. I just can't see anything here that is worth the dispute.

Will
04-10-2010, 01:13 PM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by Parallax Quote
You are right, you are in manual mode at that point. No one is disputing that, but if on the Nikon, for example, you are letting the camera choose ISO automatically, you are NOT in manual, regardless of what the selector dial or menu says.
So what's the issue here? To me it almost sounnds like why can't we have the Nikom menus on apentax? Ok, fine, people are entitled
to theiropinions, but if you want nikom function buy a nikon. I for one, like pentax a lot more.
04-10-2010, 01:27 PM   #29
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The problem here is that some of you (WMBP, for one) understand "Auto-iso in M mode" as a TAv mode, always on...

What the OP proposed was about the green button behavior only. And I agree with him (her?) : if the camera can arbitrarily decide shutter speed and aperture, why couldn't it choose an appropriate ISO too? That would be a useful tool IMO. Some would use it, some not...

Now, if you follow your "Manual is Manual" stance, then Pentax should remove the Green button feature altogether.
04-10-2010, 01:54 PM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by WMBP Quote
See my last preceding post. Answer to your question is, Yes or No, depending on which of the two meanings of "Manual" you want.
I don't really have any emotional investment. I just wanted to throw in the Mark Twain quote.

Wait, may I *am* emotional about this. Maybe I'm tired of stuff being called what it ain't. It's manual, except when it ain't. We ain't pregnant, except when we are. It's new and improved, except when it ain't. We're honest and dependable, except when we ain't. We ain't damned, except when we are. Everything is just fine, except when it ain't. Et cetera.

But my critique is aimed at marketing-propaganda-spinning in toto, not just Nikon's terminology. Nikon can call it Fred, for all I care. Disinfo makes my head spin. Too much disinfo induces insanity. OK, so I'll just have to learn how to make my psychoses work for me. The voices in my head say, "Press the shutter." I'll do that. I always listen to my voices.
"It all depends on what the meaning of is is."
--WJ Clinton
EDIT:
QuoteOriginally posted by dlacouture Quote
What the OP proposed was about the green button behavior only. And I agree with him (her?) : if the camera can arbitrarily decide shutter speed and aperture, why couldn't it choose an appropriate ISO too? That would be a useful tool IMO.
And my point is that the Green button (metering) is ADVISING the shooter of a shutter speed, not DECIDING shutter and aperture. I just tried it. K20D, DA18-250, aperture previously set to f/3.5, switch to M mode, press the Green button. It reports a shutter speed. I point it elsewhere. It shows another shutter speed. The aperture remains at f/3.5. I change the aperture to f/6.7, repeat the test. The camera reports various shutter speeds, doesn't change aperture or ISO. If I don't like the shutter speed (like my subject is backlit), I can change it. The camera robot HASN'T decided the exposure; I have.

Last edited by RioRico; 04-10-2010 at 02:04 PM.
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