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04-18-2010, 04:01 AM   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by jct us101 Quote
I don't see how you can really say that, there still is a huge megapixel war between all of the companies (the Canon 7D has 18 megapixels, really?) and Live View still hasn't been perfected yet (it still takes ages to focus while using it and it kills battery lie on most DSLRs) and there's really a ton of other areas such as weather sealing and LCD size and resolution that still haven't been perfected on every camera.
Weather sealing will never be present on every camera, battery life will continue to improve, but not because of work that camera companies are doing and yes, the megapixel wars are over. 18 is too much. It is clear that 18 megapixels over taxes entry level lenses. I hope Pentax doesn't go that route.

Video is the big thing now and rightly so. If perfected, it will be able to shoot in a lot lower light than traditional camcorders, and would have significantly better digital zoom than traditional camcorders. The biggest negative is that it requires a lot of additional equipment to stabilize it and make the controls easy to use, but I definitely see every one (except maybe Sony) jumping on the video train.

04-18-2010, 04:05 AM   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
Weather sealing will never be present on every camera, battery life will continue to improve, but not because of work that camera companies are doing and yes, the megapixel wars are over. 18 is too much. It is clear that 18 megapixels over taxes entry level lenses. I hope Pentax doesn't go that route.

Video is the big thing now and rightly so. If perfected, it will be able to shoot in a lot lower light than traditional camcorders, and would have significantly better digital zoom than traditional camcorders. The biggest negative is that it requires a lot of additional equipment to stabilize it and make the controls easy to use, but I definitely see every one (except maybe Sony) jumping on the video train.
The megapixel wars are over? Excuse me? Did you not really see my point there? The 7D has 18 megapixels, that's too many. 12 was too many, and now the iPhone plans to add an 8 megapixel sensor to it's tiny little camera. These tiny little changes are what allow the companies such as Canon and Nikon to keep releasing new cameras that barely have any differences than the last except a few more megapixels every six months.

When the 5D was released in 2005, 12 megapixels was unheard of. How many does the Mark II have? 24? I'm not kidding when I say this, but there will be an entry level camera in the next few years that will have fifty megapixels. Mark my words for that one.

Oh and I didn't intend for any of my post to sound rude, so I'm going to add a little smiley on the end just to make sure.

:-P
04-18-2010, 05:07 AM   #33
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Wow, I really can't believe how fast the price is dropping on this camera. I really do hope that a new camera is coming out, especially if its a K20D replacement. If one does not come out soon I am getting real nervous that one will not come out at all.
04-18-2010, 05:15 AM   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by jct us101 Quote
The megapixel wars are over? Excuse me? Did you not really see my point there? The 7D has 18 megapixels, that's too many. 12 was too many, and now the iPhone plans to add an 8 megapixel sensor to it's tiny little camera. These tiny little changes are what allow the companies such as Canon and Nikon to keep releasing new cameras that barely have any differences than the last except a few more megapixels every six months.

When the 5D was released in 2005, 12 megapixels was unheard of. How many does the Mark II have? 24? I'm not kidding when I say this, but there will be an entry level camera in the next few years that will have fifty megapixels. Mark my words for that one.

Oh and I didn't intend for any of my post to sound rude, so I'm going to add a little smiley on the end just to make sure.

:-P
I agree, I sure some photographers do want 50 megapixel camera so that they could crop a bird out of a landscape shot and still have it be perfect. To me the 14 megapixel sensor on my K20D is more than enough for what I do with it. My friend has a Canon 5D mk2 and it has 24 megapixels.

I mean really, what is an amateur photographer going to do with that many megapixels. It all it does is fill up his computers at a crazy rate while he goes shopping to find a bigger external hard drive so he can just keep up the storage rate of that thing. Personally, I'm glad that the stupid race is over, maybe now camera companies can finally focus on getting more dynamic range from the cameras sensor or making ISO performance a lot better as well.

I really hope Pentax releases a new camera soon that replaces the K20D, then I will finally have something to upgrade to when I finally decide to get rid of my camera.

04-18-2010, 09:50 AM   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by Tuner571 Quote

I mean really, what is an amateur photographer going to do with that many megapixels. It all it does is fill up his computers at a crazy rate while he goes shopping to find a bigger external hard drive so he can just keep up the storage rate of that thing. Personally, I'm glad that the stupid race is over, maybe now camera companies can finally focus on getting more dynamic range from the cameras sensor or making ISO performance a lot better as well.
Has anyone noticed how these higher-megapixel sensors everyone seems to be bemoaning do, in fact, provide improved dynamic range as well as high ISO performance as compared to their predecessors? Or are we still busy comparing pixel-level crops?

Once upon a time, 12mp was "way too much." Now most of us seem to acknowledge that it's great. Once the 20+ mp APS-C cameras start showing up, people will realize "hey, that 18mp sensor is actually pretty darn good. I wonder how I failed to realize that it was actually better than any of the sensors I had in my older DSLRs," while of course ignoring the improvements afforded by the newer sensors. It's an interesting cycle.

Now admittedly, a large portion of the people who buy such high-resolving cameras will never take advantage of the full resolution, and many of the others simply don't want such large files (though they may want the other improvements the sensor or camera body offer). That's what reduced-RAW formats are good for. An 8mp reduced-RAW option on an 18mp camera will tend to produce a higher quality file than a natively 8mp camera. In the meantime, those of us who would occasionally like to take advantage of that kind of resolving power really do appreciate not having to pay >1500 to do so.

It's perfectly reasonable to say that beginners and amateurs don't generally need anything above 12mp, or with acceptable quality above ISO 1600, or more than 6-7 stops of dynamic range (all claims I've heard here in the last week) but that certainly doesn't mean that camera companies shouldn't produce affordable cameras that can offer such things for those of us who would take the opportunity to take advantage of them.
04-18-2010, 09:55 AM   #36
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This makes it really tempting to procure a K7 as a second body...

Moderators, I suggest moving this to the price watch forum.
04-18-2010, 11:43 AM   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by jct us101 Quote
The megapixel wars are over? Excuse me? Did you not really see my point there? The 7D has 18 megapixels, that's too many. 12 was too many, and now the iPhone plans to add an 8 megapixel sensor to it's tiny little camera. These tiny little changes are what allow the companies such as Canon and Nikon to keep releasing new cameras that barely have any differences than the last except a few more megapixels every six months.

When the 5D was released in 2005, 12 megapixels was unheard of. How many does the Mark II have? 24? I'm not kidding when I say this, but there will be an entry level camera in the next few years that will have fifty megapixels. Mark my words for that one.

Oh and I didn't intend for any of my post to sound rude, so I'm going to add a little smiley on the end just to make sure.

:-P
Yes, and I don't use a point and shoot for just that reason. There is minimal improvement in the 7D resolution versus the 50D with typical glass. The Mark II is a full frame sensor and does not have nearly the pixel density that even a 15 megapixel crop sensor has. I just don't want the increase in file size, diffraction issues for no benefit with any of the lenses that I can afford.
04-18-2010, 12:37 PM   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
Yes, and I don't use a point and shoot for just that reason. There is minimal improvement in the 7D resolution versus the 50D with typical glass. The Mark II is a full frame sensor and does not have nearly the pixel density that even a 15 megapixel crop sensor has. I just don't want the increase in file size, diffraction issues for no benefit with any of the lenses that I can afford.
I suspect you can afford to stop the kit lens down to f8 or so. Even better, grab some cheap but sharp old manual glass and take advantage of that short registration distance on the EF mount. The whole outresolving-lenses concern is a bit overblown. It'll still make just as good pictures (or slightly better due to oversampling effects) with lenses that resolve less than the sensor, and it'll be able to deliver even more of the capability of the many, many lenses that are able to outresolve even an 18mp sensor. You don't have to pony up the big bucks. Even the ill-reputed 50mm f1.8 is pretty sharp from f5.6 or so, and real cut-your-fingers lenses like the 100mm f2 or 85mm f1.8 (and I'm just naming the ones that really appeal to me) are available for well under $500.

04-18-2010, 12:40 PM   #39
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It happens every time: A new model comes out and You think, "I'm gonna wait until the price comes down some before I buy one." Then the price starts to drop and you think, "Hmmm, they're probably going to release a new, even better, model soon: I think I'll hold and buy one of those (when the price drops.)

It's amazing they sell any of these things
04-18-2010, 01:05 PM   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by dadipentak Quote
It happens every time: A new model comes out and You think, "I'm gonna wait until the price comes down some before I buy one." Then the price starts to drop and you think, "Hmmm, they're probably going to release a new, even better, model soon: I think I'll hold and buy one of those (when the price drops.)

It's amazing they sell any of these things
It's so funny because that's exactly how I think, except I just wait a year or two and then buy it when it's so cheap that it's about a third of the price of the newest one, but each time a new one comes out I keep thinking that I'll get it when the price goes down. I never do though.
04-18-2010, 01:16 PM   #41
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Thing is, here is Australia, prices continue to be obscenely high.

Just did a bit of a search : K7 body only $US 1165.00.

Any wonder we look off shore to buy our gear.
Our local traders continue to be the losers.
04-18-2010, 01:20 PM   #42
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QuoteOriginally posted by Bramela Quote
Thing is, here is Australia, prices continue to be obscenely high.

Just did a bit of a search : K7 body only $US 1165.00.

Any wonder we look off shore to buy our gear.
Our local traders continue to be the losers.
Don't the shipping costs kind of make that a little bit pointless though? Last time I had to ship something to another country it ended up costing another $50 just to ship it, and I'm pretty sure the sellers aren't going to take that $50 off the price. I guess it might be a little bit better still, but there's just so much more work involved doing it that way.
04-18-2010, 01:31 PM   #43
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QuoteOriginally posted by jct us101 Quote
there still is a huge megapixel war between all of the companies (the Canon 7D has 18 megapixels, really?)
I wouldn't call the difference between the 14.6 megapixel K-7 and the 18 megapixel 7D a "huge" megapixel war. You're talking about only 512 more pixels horizontally, and 352 more pixels vertically. That equates to approximately 11% more linear resolution.

To give you an idea of how relatively small a step is, that's the exact same increase in linear resolution you'd have gotten going:

* From a 6.0 megapixel camera to a 7.4 megapixel model

- or -

* From a 3.1 megapixel camera to a 3.8 megapixel camera

As total resolution goes up, the steps in megapixels mean increasingly less to the overall linear resolution.

To get the same ~40% step in linear resolution that we got going from 3.1 to 6.0 megapixels, you'd have to go from the K-7's 14.6 megapixels to a 28 megapixel camera.

The megapixel war is basically dead and buried even in digital SLRs. All we're doing these days is making very slight boosts in linear resolution, and very slight drops in potential image quality as a result.
04-18-2010, 01:33 PM   #44
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QuoteOriginally posted by knoxploration Quote
I wouldn't call the difference between the 14.6 megapixel K-7 and the 18 megapixel 7D a "huge" megapixel war. You're talking about only 512 more pixels horizontally, and 352 more pixels vertically. That equates to approximately 11% more linear resolution.

To give you an idea of how relatively small a step is, that's the exact same increase in linear resolution you'd have gotten going:

* From a 6.0 megapixel camera to a 7.4 megapixel model

- or -

* From a 3.1 megapixel camera to a 3.8 megapixel camera

As total resolution goes up, the steps in megapixels mean increasingly less to the overall linear resolution.

To get the same ~40% step in linear resolution that we got going from 3.1 to 6.0 megapixels, you'd have to go from the K-7's 14.6 megapixels to a 28 megapixel camera.

The megapixel war is basically dead and buried even in digital SLRs. All we're doing these days is making very slight boosts in resolution, and very slight drops in potential image quality as a result.
The megapixel war has never been something that Pentax has taken part in, I thought that you were referring to Canon and Nikon. I agree that Pentax really has no interest in it, look how long they kept the six megapixel sensor for.
04-18-2010, 02:14 PM   #45
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QuoteOriginally posted by jct us101 Quote
The megapixel war has never been something that Pentax has taken part in, I thought that you were referring to Canon and Nikon. I agree that Pentax really has no interest in it, look how long they kept the six megapixel sensor for.
Eh? It wasn't my post you were replying to, and it was you who first brought up the megapixel war "between all of the companies".

Pentax were just as involved in the megapixel war as everybody else was. They weren't the only ones to keep a six megapixel camera around for a while, and their top-end models were at around the same resolution as everybody else's cameras (in the same market segment).

I think you completely misunderstood my post, and you might want to read it again. I wasn't saying Pentax didn't take part in the megapixel war, I said the war is already over (and effectively has been for a while).

The difference between a three megapixel and a six megapixel camera is the same as the difference between a 14 megapixel camera and a 28 megapixel camera.

The difference between the 14 megapixel K-7 and the 18 megapixel 7D that you're railing against as a symbol of excess is actually miniscule. They're both very high resolution cameras, with only 11% linear difference between them. It is the remainder of their feature set that differentiates them -- no informed buyer is going to choose the 7D solely for a small fraction more resolution.
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