I need your comments please

Naim Khan · 04-23-2010, 01:33 PM

I wonder if you kind people can help me out please. Take a look at the picture and tell me how bad is the noise. I took this recently in Istanbul and felt that it is very noisy. I admit that I forgot to set the ISO and the camera calculated it on its on to set it at 3200. Do you think it is too noisy and would the K7 be less noisy?
Thanks.

jct us101 · 04-23-2010, 01:41 PM

I don't think it's too noisy, and since you took it with the K-7, I would expect this much noise in a night photo at ISO 3200, unfortunately the noise would have been a lot better from the K-x at the same ISO because of it's different sensor, but the sensor isn't the most important part of the K-7. I would suggest some noise reduction on this, get Noise Ninja or something, and it will look very nice.

Nass · 04-23-2010, 01:53 PM

Hello Naim,

There does seem to be a bit of weirdness in the sky but whether that's noise or not I don't really know. If low noise at high ISO is your priority then I think you might be better off moving to a K-X rather than a K-7 from your K20D?

Naim Khan · 04-23-2010, 02:08 PM

Sorry, I forgot to mention that i took the shot with a K20D.

rparmar · 04-23-2010, 02:47 PM

The noise is not offensive and would be even less so when printed. If you like you could run noise reduction on the sky. I bought Noise Ninja for this purpose but there are other good reasonably priced programmes.

The main thing I would recommend is... get closer to your subject. There is a lot of "wasted" space in this shot, with the green foreground that doesn't add anything. Given the ISO, cropping and blowing up the image is not the best option, as it will make the noise more prominent. This is only one reason to try to frame your subject well in-camera, instead of waiting to "fix it in PP".

Hope this helps!

Naim Khan · 04-23-2010, 03:09 PM

Rparmar, how about the on below? This was taken a few minutes later so the sky is much darker but framing is much tighter. I have tried to reduce the noise in PP Elements. I've also decreased the exposure by about 1/3 stop in ACR - this also seemed to reduce the noise somewhat. ISO is still 3200.

Marc Sabatella · 04-23-2010, 07:37 PM

Looks totally normal. If it's too much noise for you, don't shoot high ISO, because with high ISO comes noise. There arenslight differences between cameras, but none work miracles. Noise is much more noticeable when pixel peeping at 100% than in "normal" sized views and prints.

Naim Khan · 04-24-2010, 01:19 AM

Thanks Marc. I am quite happy with the results, especially after a bit of PPing but wasn't sure what others. like you, make of it. If you guys (more experienced photographers than me) feel that this noise is acceptable then I am quite happy as well.
I remember,many years ago, I took some pictures using a high ISO film (possibly 1600) which came out extremely noisy but they had a charm of their own and I was quite pleased with the results - and so was my wife, who was the subject in some of the shots.
Cheers.

rparmar · 04-24-2010, 04:57 AM

Originally posted by Naim Khan

Rparmar, how about the on below?

That is much better in terms of filling the frame with the subject. The only thing now is to work on focus. My advice for that, in low light, is to develop your ability to manually focus, though this is better done with some lenses than others. You can "focus bracket" by taking several photos with slightly varying focus range, and then pick the best one.

Peter Zack · 04-24-2010, 05:14 AM

Very good advice from both Marc and rparmar. Night scenes like this need a lower ISO and a tripod. Don't try to get away with hand holding the shots and higher ISO's Let the NR in camera process do it's job and you'll get very good results. The focus bracketing is also much easier on a tripod and will give you good results as well. Plus you can increase the DOF with a smaller aperture if the shutter speed isn't an issue on a tripod.

**felixkh** · 04-24-2010, 06:17 AM

What noise? Looks ok to me too . . .

TaoMaas · 04-24-2010, 06:22 AM

I know this is an old-timer's comment, but geez....we are SO spoiled! The amount of noise in that shot at ASA 3200 is pretty minimal. Yes, there's some junk in the sky, but to me, the noise isn't that noticeable anywhere else. Still, it's light-years better than what could have been accomplished with ASA 3200 film.

Naim Khan · 04-24-2010, 06:45 AM

Originally posted by rparmar

That is much better in terms of filling the frame with the subject. The only thing now is to work on focus. My advice for that, in low light, is to develop your ability to manually focus, though this is better done with some lenses than others. You can "focus bracket" by taking several photos with slightly varying focus range, and then pick the best one.

Thanks Rparmar - I actually grew up on manual focus lenses, back in the 80s and for a long time didn't buy autofocus lenses because I didn't trust them! Things are different now with these new lenses, which are so much better, but i agree, manual focus is the way in dark conditions.

Originally posted by Peter Zack

Very good advice from both Marc and rparmar. Night scenes like this need a lower ISO and a tripod. Don't try to get away with hand holding the shots and higher ISO's Let the NR in camera process do it's job and you'll get very good results. The focus bracketing is also much easier on a tripod and will give you good results as well. Plus you can increase the DOF with a smaller aperture if the shutter speed isn't an issue on a tripod.

Peter, this shot was handheld. You talk about tripod, man I had so much trouble with just a Gorilla Pod - they took it off me in so may places that I just left it in the hotel.
I was going to start a thread after coming home entitled 'Why are we surrounded by idiots'? As much as I tried to explain to them about the Gorilla Pod, they wouldn't listen and to avoid any further unpleasantness, I just gave in.

Rant over.

Cheers.

Naim Khan · 04-24-2010, 06:50 AM

Originally posted by TaoMaas

I know this is an old-timer's comment, but geez....we are SO spoiled! The amount of noise in that shot at ASA 3200 is pretty minimal. Yes, there's some junk in the sky, but to me, the noise isn't that noticeable anywhere else. Still, it's light-years better than what could have been accomplished with ASA 3200 film.

Taomass, I agree but so many people and so many reviews talk about noise that it has made me paranoid. However after reading all the comments, I am satisfied. As I mentioned above, I once used a 1600 ASA film some years and the noise was really really loud, although it had a charm of its own.
Cheers

rparmar · 04-24-2010, 06:01 PM

I am glad what little I can offer is of help.

And as for being spoiled... yeah! We definitely are. Those of us who did a bit of film (and still do) at least have perspective on this. It's those with no perspective that I actually feel a bit sorry for.

04-23-2010, 01:33 PM	#1
Naim Khan Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Wakefield, West Yorkshire Posts: 177	I need your comments please I wonder if you kind people can help me out please. Take a look at the picture and tell me how bad is the noise. I took this recently in Istanbul and felt that it is very noisy. I admit that I forgot to set the ISO and the camera calculated it on its on to set it at 3200. Do you think it is too noisy and would the K7 be less noisy? Thanks.

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04-23-2010, 01:41 PM	#2
jct us101 Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Rohnert Park, CA Posts: 3,695	I don't think it's too noisy, and since you took it with the K-7, I would expect this much noise in a night photo at ISO 3200, unfortunately the noise would have been a lot better from the K-x at the same ISO because of it's different sensor, but the sensor isn't the most important part of the K-7. I would suggest some noise reduction on this, get Noise Ninja or something, and it will look very nice.

04-23-2010, 01:53 PM	#3
Nass Senior Moderator Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: The British Isles Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,245	Hello Naim, There does seem to be a bit of weirdness in the sky but whether that's noise or not I don't really know. If low noise at high ISO is your priority then I think you might be better off moving to a K-X rather than a K-7 from your K20D?

04-23-2010, 02:08 PM	#4
Naim Khan Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Wakefield, West Yorkshire Posts: 177 Original Poster	Sorry, I forgot to mention that i took the shot with a K20D.

04-23-2010, 02:47 PM	#5
rparmar Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Photos: Gallery Posts: 8,783	The noise is not offensive and would be even less so when printed. If you like you could run noise reduction on the sky. I bought Noise Ninja for this purpose but there are other good reasonably priced programmes. The main thing I would recommend is... get closer to your subject. There is a lot of "wasted" space in this shot, with the green foreground that doesn't add anything. Given the ISO, cropping and blowing up the image is not the best option, as it will make the noise more prominent. This is only one reason to try to frame your subject well in-camera, instead of waiting to "fix it in PP". Hope this helps!

04-23-2010, 03:09 PM	#6
Naim Khan Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Wakefield, West Yorkshire Posts: 177 Original Poster	Rparmar, how about the on below? This was taken a few minutes later so the sky is much darker but framing is much tighter. I have tried to reduce the noise in PP Elements. I've also decreased the exposure by about 1/3 stop in ACR - this also seemed to reduce the noise somewhat. ISO is still 3200.

04-23-2010, 07:37 PM	#7
Marc Sabatella Pentaxian Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Denver, CO Photos: Gallery Posts: 10,686	Looks totally normal. If it's too much noise for you, don't shoot high ISO, because with high ISO comes noise. There arenslight differences between cameras, but none work miracles. Noise is much more noticeable when pixel peeping at 100% than in "normal" sized views and prints.

04-24-2010, 01:19 AM	#8
Naim Khan Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Wakefield, West Yorkshire Posts: 177 Original Poster	Thanks Marc. I am quite happy with the results, especially after a bit of PPing but wasn't sure what others. like you, make of it. If you guys (more experienced photographers than me) feel that this noise is acceptable then I am quite happy as well. I remember,many years ago, I took some pictures using a high ISO film (possibly 1600) which came out extremely noisy but they had a charm of their own and I was quite pleased with the results - and so was my wife, who was the subject in some of the shots. Cheers.

04-24-2010, 04:57 AM	#9
rparmar Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Photos: Gallery Posts: 8,783	Originally posted by Naim Khan Rparmar, how about the on below? That is much better in terms of filling the frame with the subject. The only thing now is to work on focus. My advice for that, in low light, is to develop your ability to manually focus, though this is better done with some lenses than others. You can "focus bracket" by taking several photos with slightly varying focus range, and then pick the best one.

04-24-2010, 05:14 AM	#10
Peter Zack Pentaxian Moderator Emeritus Join Date: May 2007 Location: Edmonton Alberta, Canada Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 10,648	Very good advice from both Marc and rparmar. Night scenes like this need a lower ISO and a tripod. Don't try to get away with hand holding the shots and higher ISO's Let the NR in camera process do it's job and you'll get very good results. The focus bracketing is also much easier on a tripod and will give you good results as well. Plus you can increase the DOF with a smaller aperture if the shutter speed isn't an issue on a tripod.

04-24-2010, 06:17 AM	#11
felixkh Site Supporter Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Singapore Photos: Gallery Posts: 929	What noise? Looks ok to me too . . .

04-24-2010, 06:22 AM	#12
TaoMaas Pentaxian Join Date: May 2007 Location: Oklahoma City Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,191	I know this is an old-timer's comment, but geez....we are SO spoiled! The amount of noise in that shot at ASA 3200 is pretty minimal. Yes, there's some junk in the sky, but to me, the noise isn't that noticeable anywhere else. Still, it's light-years better than what could have been accomplished with ASA 3200 film.

04-24-2010, 06:45 AM	#13
Naim Khan Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Wakefield, West Yorkshire Posts: 177 Original Poster	Originally posted by rparmar That is much better in terms of filling the frame with the subject. The only thing now is to work on focus. My advice for that, in low light, is to develop your ability to manually focus, though this is better done with some lenses than others. You can "focus bracket" by taking several photos with slightly varying focus range, and then pick the best one. Thanks Rparmar - I actually grew up on manual focus lenses, back in the 80s and for a long time didn't buy autofocus lenses because I didn't trust them! Things are different now with these new lenses, which are so much better, but i agree, manual focus is the way in dark conditions. Originally posted by Peter Zack Very good advice from both Marc and rparmar. Night scenes like this need a lower ISO and a tripod. Don't try to get away with hand holding the shots and higher ISO's Let the NR in camera process do it's job and you'll get very good results. The focus bracketing is also much easier on a tripod and will give you good results as well. Plus you can increase the DOF with a smaller aperture if the shutter speed isn't an issue on a tripod. Peter, this shot was handheld. You talk about tripod, man I had so much trouble with just a Gorilla Pod - they took it off me in so may places that I just left it in the hotel. I was going to start a thread after coming home entitled 'Why are we surrounded by idiots'? As much as I tried to explain to them about the Gorilla Pod, they wouldn't listen and to avoid any further unpleasantness, I just gave in. Rant over. Cheers.

04-24-2010, 06:50 AM	#14
Naim Khan Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Wakefield, West Yorkshire Posts: 177 Original Poster	Originally posted by TaoMaas I know this is an old-timer's comment, but geez....we are SO spoiled! The amount of noise in that shot at ASA 3200 is pretty minimal. Yes, there's some junk in the sky, but to me, the noise isn't that noticeable anywhere else. Still, it's light-years better than what could have been accomplished with ASA 3200 film. Taomass, I agree but so many people and so many reviews talk about noise that it has made me paranoid. However after reading all the comments, I am satisfied. As I mentioned above, I once used a 1600 ASA film some years and the noise was really really loud, although it had a charm of its own. Cheers

04-24-2010, 06:01 PM	#15
rparmar Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Photos: Gallery Posts: 8,783	I am glad what little I can offer is of help. And as for being spoiled... yeah! We definitely are. Those of us who did a bit of film (and still do) at least have perspective on this. It's those with no perspective that I actually feel a bit sorry for.