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04-27-2010, 08:25 AM   #61
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QuoteOriginally posted by Samsungian Quote
What Canon gear did you own & use ?

I find my K20D refuses to lock focus compared to old 5D in dimly lit situations.

I find taking the shot is superior to pressing the Pentax shutter button and getting nothing.

I owned every Canon DXX/XXD cameras from the D30 all the way up to the 50D. Even had a 1D Mk II in the middle there as well as a few rebels. I've owned a bunch of different lenses over the years....including quite a few with a red ring Never had any of the 5D's or 1Ds...I'm not really drawn to FF.

Before I say anything else...I'm not trashing Canon. They're cameras are awesome, and yes, the focus is fast...faster than any Pentax I've used. They were the pioneers in clean high-ISO images that paved the way and forced other manufacturers to put more effort into this area.

Also...any comments I make are purely anecdotal...but I feel I'm about as objective as they come and I've never been particularly loyal to any particular brand...as I've hopped around over the years owning Nikon D100/D70/D200 as well as a Previous stint with Pentax (K10D, istDL) and Olympus (E510).

I guess it's a matter of preference. I'd prefer to have slower focus but know when I have a lock....I have an in-focus shot. Again...this is purely anecdotal, and I'm by no means a full time professional but I do shoot the occasional wedding. When I've shot weddings with my Canon's...I'd have a lot more out of focus shots where the lighting was dim. Whereas when I'd shoot a wedding with my K10D...I was fighting with getting it to lock focus in very dim light a lot of the times...but then I had a lot higher of a keeper ratio of the shots I actually got.

Honestly at this point in the game for me...I could live with either system. The big point is knowing your gear, how it operates, and working with it. With Canon, I'd just have to take more shots to make up for the missed ones...for example the last wedding I shot was with a 50D....and I probably took 40-50 shots of the Bride dancing with her father just to make sure I had a few nice ones to show her. With Pentax...you just have to think ahead a little bit...sometimes switch to manual focus or prefocus so you don't miss the shot. Honestly, if I was a full time pro I think I'd seriously be shooting Nikon if my livelihood depended on an Autofocus system because I honestly found them to be the best compromise between AF speed and accuracy in dim lighting.

No system is perfect. You have to find one you are comfortable with and use it. I could honestly live with any system I've tried. What I like about Pentax at this point in the game is a) In - body stabilization and b) the fact that I can mount any K-mount lens ever made. That's me...your mileage may vary

04-27-2010, 08:54 AM   #62
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QuoteOriginally posted by PentaxPoke Quote
But is your "Canonite" experience based specifically on the 7D? I can't speak for older EOS, but the 7D is the most responsive and accurate camera with regards to AF I have ever used. The 7D's AF system is quite different from it's predecessors. It is even more advanced than the FF 5D MkII.

With regards to the urban myth that "Canon is fast but inaccurate, and Pentax is slow but accurate." I have not found that to be my experience when comparing my Pentax bodies to the 7D. I have also tested a T2i recently, and the new AF system is fast and accurate as well. It shares some of the core 7D AF characteristics, however it has a single Digic IV instead of the parallel processing of the dual Digic IV on the 7D. Apparently the dual processor is one of the things that makes AF tracking so good on the 7D. One entire processor is dedicated to AF functions.
No, I have not handled a 7D so maybe things have changed. I was speaking Canon's system in general based on my experience with about 10-12 different models. Of course it's possible that the 7D is leaps and bounds above the 50D which is the last Canon I had....but it really doesn't make a difference to me. I really only jumped in this thread because the video that was posted wasn't, IMHO, a fair comparison.

In fact, I don't even GET the comparison. I can buy almost 2 K7's for what it would cost me to buy a 7D body...so of course I would expect a better performing camera.

Fact is....Canon has been a trailblazer so to speak as far as packing features into bodies (except their refusal to use in-body stabilization). They gave us the first "affordable" DSLR in the D30 at $3000....they gave us the first Sub-$1000 DSLR...they gave us the first DSLR's with very clean high ISO images. Now it looks like they're packing more "pro" features into their mid-range line.

This is a good thing, as it generally prods other manufacturers to follow suit.

What people have to realize is...Pentax jumped in the game late. I mean...Canon's been making Ultrasonic lenses since the late 80's. Pentax started, what...4 years ago? They were a few years behind until they announced their first Digital SLR in the *ist D.

In all honesty, yes Pentax still has some catching up to do, but they've caught up nicely if you ask me, and they're on the right track.
04-27-2010, 09:39 AM   #63
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QuoteOriginally posted by jgmankos Quote
No, I have not handled a 7D so maybe things have changed. I was speaking Canon's system in general based on my experience with about 10-12 different models.

The AF on the 7D is quite a bit ahead of anything else that Canon has produced, and as such really invalidates your general experience based on past models.
Similarly, one could look at the AF on a Pentax ME-F and conclude that Pentax AF barely works, and only with one lens.
04-27-2010, 09:52 AM   #64
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
The AF on the 7D is quite a bit ahead of anything else that Canon has produced, and as such really invalidates your general experience based on past models.
Similarly, one could look at the AF on a Pentax ME-F and conclude that Pentax AF barely works, and only with one lens.
Hey, if that's the case...then that's great!

Like I said...I don't get the comparison to begin with. If someone wants a 7d, they should buy a 7D and be happy with it. Griping because a K7 doesn't have the same features/abilities as a 7D at half the price really isn't a fair expectation.

04-27-2010, 10:01 AM   #65
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QuoteOriginally posted by jgmankos Quote
Like I said...I don't get the comparison to begin with. If someone wants a 7d, they should buy a 7D and be happy with it. Griping because a K7 doesn't have the same features/abilities as a 7D at half the price really isn't a fair expectation.
Yes, but what about griping because the k-7 AF even with one of Pentax's fastest focusing lenses is no faster than an EOS system that is 19 years old? You are relatively new here, so you must excuse some of us that have been griping about SAFOX for some time. I agree with Wheat, that SAFOX is outdated, and still is essentially the same AF from the film days. Sure the k-7 is faster than the k20d, but we need to be comparing Pentax with the competition, not old Pentax models.

[YT]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-gfkUJA6dY[/YT]

Replace SAFOX with something that can at least compete with the Rebel T2i for goodness sakes, and make DA* lenses true ring ultrasonic, and then Pentax would be back!
04-27-2010, 10:11 AM   #66
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Thats cool Pentax works better than Canon for you

Thats cool Pentax K-x works better than 10-12 Canon's for you

You've had 10-12 Canon dslrs and none were full frame.

You are The Rebel Master then ???

How do you like T2i ?


My experience is different than yours.
I started with K Mount Dslrs.
I Added Canon in 2008 and Nikon in 2009.
I bought from them for full frames and their ultrawide f2.8 zoom options.
Good ol' RedStripes & ED Nanocoats.
I'm pleased with Canikon and will keep both platforms to build out.

So far in 2010 I've found new homes for over half my Pentax goodies.
Kinda sad to see it go, but for me getting the cash back inhand outweighs keeping it.


As far as Ultrasonic Canon lenses from late 1980's, Pentax SDM are micro motor, not ring motor.
I compare Pentax micro motor to my Canon 50mm 2.5 macro as its micro motor, one of the very first generation eos lens designs from 1987.
Not many micro motor lenses left in eos system as most everything is ultrasonic, USM.

As far as 2 K-7 cost what one Canon 7D, thats true as of now, today.
Pentax predictably drops launch price at a greater rate than Canon or Nikon do.
At B&H right now K-7 is $868.
Not a bad drop from $1299 ???
I assume we'll see K-7 at $699 or less before its gone for good.
You are smart to wait for K-7 to get best price while enjoying your K-x.

Meanwhile 5D Mark II is down only $200 in 18 months and 7D remains at launch price.


Enjoy the ride





QuoteOriginally posted by jgmankos Quote
I owned every Canon DXX/XXD cameras from the D30 all the way up to the 50D. Even had a 1D Mk II in the middle there as well as a few rebels. I've owned a bunch of different lenses over the years....including quite a few with a red ring Never had any of the 5D's or 1Ds...I'm not really drawn to FF.

Before I say anything else...I'm not trashing Canon. They're cameras are awesome, and yes, the focus is fast...faster than any Pentax I've used. They were the pioneers in clean high-ISO images that paved the way and forced other manufacturers to put more effort into this area.

Also...any comments I make are purely anecdotal...but I feel I'm about as objective as they come and I've never been particularly loyal to any particular brand...as I've hopped around over the years owning Nikon D100/D70/D200 as well as a Previous stint with Pentax (K10D, istDL) and Olympus (E510).

I guess it's a matter of preference. I'd prefer to have slower focus but know when I have a lock....I have an in-focus shot. Again...this is purely anecdotal, and I'm by no means a full time professional but I do shoot the occasional wedding. When I've shot weddings with my Canon's...I'd have a lot more out of focus shots where the lighting was dim. Whereas when I'd shoot a wedding with my K10D...I was fighting with getting it to lock focus in very dim light a lot of the times...but then I had a lot higher of a keeper ratio of the shots I actually got.

Honestly at this point in the game for me...I could live with either system. The big point is knowing your gear, how it operates, and working with it. With Canon, I'd just have to take more shots to make up for the missed ones...for example the last wedding I shot was with a 50D....and I probably took 40-50 shots of the Bride dancing with her father just to make sure I had a few nice ones to show her. With Pentax...you just have to think ahead a little bit...sometimes switch to manual focus or prefocus so you don't miss the shot. Honestly, if I was a full time pro I think I'd seriously be shooting Nikon if my livelihood depended on an Autofocus system because I honestly found them to be the best compromise between AF speed and accuracy in dim lighting.

No system is perfect. You have to find one you are comfortable with and use it. I could honestly live with any system I've tried. What I like about Pentax at this point in the game is a) In - body stabilization and b) the fact that I can mount any K-mount lens ever made. That's me...your mileage may vary
QuoteOriginally posted by jgmankos Quote
No, I have not handled a 7D so maybe things have changed. I was speaking Canon's system in general based on my experience with about 10-12 different models. Of course it's possible that the 7D is leaps and bounds above the 50D which is the last Canon I had....but it really doesn't make a difference to me. I really only jumped in this thread because the video that was posted wasn't, IMHO, a fair comparison.

In fact, I don't even GET the comparison. I can buy almost 2 K7's for what it would cost me to buy a 7D body...so of course I would expect a better performing camera.

Fact is....Canon has been a trailblazer so to speak as far as packing features into bodies (except their refusal to use in-body stabilization). They gave us the first "affordable" DSLR in the D30 at $3000....they gave us the first Sub-$1000 DSLR...they gave us the first DSLR's with very clean high ISO images. Now it looks like they're packing more "pro" features into their mid-range line.

This is a good thing, as it generally prods other manufacturers to follow suit.

What people have to realize is...Pentax jumped in the game late. I mean...Canon's been making Ultrasonic lenses since the late 80's. Pentax started, what...4 years ago? They were a few years behind until they announced their first Digital SLR in the *ist D.

In all honesty, yes Pentax still has some catching up to do, but they've caught up nicely if you ask me, and they're on the right track.

Last edited by Samsungian; 04-27-2010 at 10:41 AM.
04-27-2010, 10:13 AM   #67
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QuoteOriginally posted by jgmankos Quote
Hey, if that's the case...then that's great!

Like I said...I don't get the comparison to begin with. If someone wants a 7d, they should buy a 7D and be happy with it. Griping because a K7 doesn't have the same features/abilities as a 7D at half the price really isn't a fair expectation.
My gripe is that Pentax doesn't make a camera at twice the price, not that their cameras are half the price.
04-27-2010, 11:10 AM   #68
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Both cameras have advantages and disadvantages relative to one another. But really, what we have in the world of cameras is a game of leapfrog, with the various manufacturers surpassing one another at various intervals. The K-7 is nearing one year old. You can bet that the K-8 will beat it and the 7D in some ways. And then will come the 8D....

So just decide for yourself which features and form factors matter most to you, and go with that. For me, size matters a great deal. Smaller is better. Also, in-camera SR is very cool. OTOH, focus-tracking is of no interest to me, and neither camera is what I would choose for high ISO shooting. (FF is the way to go for that.) You may feel differently about these things.

Rob

04-27-2010, 12:16 PM   #69
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QuoteOriginally posted by robgo2 Quote
But really, what we have in the world of cameras is a game of leapfrog, with the various manufacturers surpassing one another at various intervals. The K-7 is nearing one year old. You can bet that the K-8 will beat it and the 7D in some ways. And then will come the 8D....
I think you are missing the point that some of us have been trying to make. Since the development of the DSLR, Pentax has never "leapfrogged" the competition when it comes to AF. They have always been playing catch-up and have never even come close, when it comes to lower-light AF, and also AF tracking.

SAFOX and SDM. Those are Pentax's glaring weaknesses. In other areas they have strengths. Admitting our weaknesses doesn't mean we are bashing the brand. I want Pentax to compete, not make excuses for them.
04-27-2010, 02:02 PM   #70
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QuoteOriginally posted by Deerhunter1 Quote
I also do wildlife and has just upgraded my Pentax gear with the K7 from K10 while at the same time also bought the 7D and a 400 mm L lens. The latter for wildlife exklusively. Pentax will do everything else. The Canon gear is absolute firstclass I dare say and a godsent to this particular shooting at dawn and dusk, but imho the K7 and Da*300 produce excellent results in normal daytimelight conditions with the possible exeption of BIF´s, I suppose.
Indeed, BIF photography can become a nightmare when the AF just doesn't track fast enough or/and when the dim lighting conditions demand higher ISO settings, which the K7 can do but likely not as well as the 7D ... I am only guessing.
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04-27-2010, 04:13 PM   #71
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QuoteOriginally posted by PentaxPoke Quote
I think you are missing the point that some of us have been trying to make. Since the development of the DSLR, Pentax has never "leapfrogged" the competition when it comes to AF. They have always been playing catch-up and have never even come close, when it comes to lower-light AF, and also AF tracking.

SAFOX and SDM. Those are Pentax's glaring weaknesses. In other areas they have strengths. Admitting our weaknesses doesn't mean we are bashing the brand. I want Pentax to compete, not make excuses for them.
I'm not making excuses. Rather, I'm pointing out that all decisions regarding cameras involve trade-offs. Pentax may lag the competition in AF, but it beats it in other areas. And AF on the K-7 is actually pretty damn good and far superior to anything that Pentax have ever produced before. What you need to understand is that most users don't really want or need world-class focus tracking. Those who do have to go with a brand that can provide it. In so doing, they may have to accept much greater size and weight. Or maybe just wait for the K-8. Expecting a camera to provide all things to all people at a reasonable price is absurd.

Rob
04-27-2010, 06:11 PM   #72
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There are many, many posts in this thread which say the K-7 is lacking in high ISO compared to the 7D. Can someone link to some evidence? The comparisons I have seen is that the RAW files are very similar, and in jpeg the K-7 keeps more detail for your own PP while the 7D in-camera software does heavy smudging, although I don't really bother looking at jpeg comparisons much.

Agreed on other points, the top Canon lenses with the 7D have real lightening AF. I still think the K-7 has good single AF. I don't use continuous so can't compare but by most accounts it's lagging, to a smaller or greater degree.

Unless you really need the features of one of these cameras over the other, you really need to choose more based on the lens options.

I love the K-7 because it's just what I want for street stuff - small, non-intimidating, fast operation and single AF, good high ISO in RAW, very quiet shutter. In my opinion, it's the best DSLR for street photography. And then you have the limited lens line up. If I was shooting sports, I'd get the 7D and some USM zooms. But for street, the 7D is a big loud beast, and I don't like the ergonomics.
04-27-2010, 06:53 PM   #73
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QuoteOriginally posted by robgo2 Quote
What you need to understand is that most users don't really want or need world-class focus tracking.
Ok, well how about Rebel-class tracking then? I would take that.

But still, you confuse tracking AF performance with low-light AF performance. This is a common point of misdirection regarding Pentax AF. They are two separate issues. In both, Pentax lags. The only people who wouldn't appreciate faster low-light AF, are people who MF. I am talking single shot here. Not tracking.

Last edited by PentaxPoke; 04-27-2010 at 07:01 PM.
04-27-2010, 10:59 PM   #74
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I'd love to see the K-7 and the 7D examples with the EXACT same lens model (Tamron 17-50 for example) side by side....maybe 1-2 iso 100, 1-2 iso 800 and just general examples. Any ideas? I think it would be even cooler to see these examples unlabeled first.

Jason
04-28-2010, 09:31 AM   #75
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QuoteOriginally posted by Jasvox Quote
I'd love to see the K-7 and the 7D examples with the EXACT same lens model (Tamron 17-50 for example) side by side....maybe 1-2 iso 100, 1-2 iso 800 and just general examples. Any ideas? I think it would be even cooler to see these examples unlabeled first.

Jason
Jason,
That is not possible to use the EXACT same lens, unless the lens has a lens motor for both mounts. Note that EOS cameras (which started in 1987) have never had a body motor for AF. There are no mechanical linkages between the body and lens. Therefore to compare the EXACT same lens, the lens for the K and EOS mounts would have to have a) lens driven aperture, and b) lens driven AF.
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