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08-18-2010, 12:44 AM   #46
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Thanks for completing your series, Joe.

Handling higher ISO is indeed not the strong point of the P&S cameras - to put it mildly.

08-19-2010, 01:40 PM   #47
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Agreed.
Though, some models seem to handle noise better than others, with the same sensor type... Certainly something to do with the noise reduction used in the management in between sensor and file (ie image processing), but it's clear that with the tiny sensors fitted to P&S, physics learn us we can't expect miracles on that side.
08-21-2010, 12:06 PM   #48
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What P&S from Pentax is considered to have the best IQ?

I've got an Optio E 60 that I don't like. The colors are super saturated, especially the green. I see much more natural colors out of Canon's and Sony P&S and probably others. Maybe there is a better Optio, I don't have any images from other Optios to compare to, but do have friends with Canon and Sony.

I did shoot one of my B&W photo's with a friends Panasonic ZS7. It's a nice camera for a compact P&S with 12x optical zoom, but it doesn't seem the images compare well against the Panasonic LX3 or Canon S90. I'm currently looking for a P&S with that kind of quality. On the SLR side I use a Nikon D5000 I got for my wife and saving up for my own which will probably be a Pentax K7 or maybe whatever is offered this fall. I'm also toying with the idea of FF because I mostly shoot landscape. I like the Pentax because of the size and the glass.
08-21-2010, 12:42 PM   #49
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I'm afraid I don't keep up all that well with the evolution of P&S cameras, Ryan.
I have one (Panasonic FX500) that serves my needs.

The best seem to be the Panasonic LX3 (soon to be replaced with LX4) and Canon G11.
The price for these are above the Panasonic ZS7. Normally, you get what you pay for.

I'm not hearing great things about Pentax nor Nikon P&S.

Another new model that gets a good reception would be the Samsung TL500.

Some good reviews can be found at dpreview,
Digital camera resource page and perhaps Steve's digicams as well.

On the FF subject, there might be some time before Pentax comes out with this - if ever.

08-21-2010, 05:04 PM   #50
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Bart, I was out and about today and did look at some point and shoots. The Canon G11 is nice in that there are a lot of mechanical controls on the camera as opposed to menu diving. I think though when I get one it will either be the new Canon S95 or Panasonic LX5. I know they can't beat an SLR, but there are so many times I'd like to have a camera with me for those opportune moments you don't expect, or if I don't feel like carrying a dslr.

It's too bad Pentax doesn't make a top notch point and shoot, I'm kind of hoping that Ned Bunnell's post about the Leica D Lux 4 had a deeper meaning than just his experience with an excellent point and shoot camera.
08-23-2010, 11:58 PM   #51
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wrong write...sorry..

Last edited by Gabeszfotó; 08-24-2010 at 12:07 AM.
08-24-2010, 12:01 AM   #52
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QuoteOriginally posted by Bart Quote
THEME - "B&W"


I thought it might be a good idea to go for a broad theme. Might be extra difficult to judge but perhaps we'll get a good number of participants this way.
The theme is perhaps not all that original but it's up to you to address this with all the creativity you can muster

Since we're a bit late in the month to start and this period is vacation time for a lot of folks, I would let this contest run till the end of August.
So everybody can join in .

Oh, and don't be afraid of some "grain" in the pictures...


THE RULES
1. Have fun!
2. No 35mm, APS, or 4/3 SLR/DSLR cameras allowed. 110 film SLRs, 35mm and smaller rangefinder/viewfindercameras are allowed. No medium or large format cameras allowed.
3. Entries will close on August 29th, 2010.
4. Maximum image dimensions are 800x800 pixels.
5. List camera brand, model with entry for all to see.
6. THEME: "B&W"
7. Max of 3 photographs per person.
8. Post processing is fine.
9. Winner will set up and judge next contest.


Let's see your entries, people!
My bw:

Original: pitypang / puffball |bw puffball (by flickr)

Original exif:
K200D
Tamron 70-300 + Raynox DCR-250
100mm
f/4.5
1/160
ISO100
08-24-2010, 01:47 AM   #53
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I've had a bit of a play with a Canon G10 and I'd have to say it's miles above any of the Pentax compacts for the simple reason that it has adjustable (and easily adjustable at that) photo parameters (e.g. shutter speed, aperture, etc). It's pretty hard to consider it the same class as my Optio W90. That's not to say that I'd prefer it over my Pentax however!

I used to own a old Casio DC (Exfilm EX-Z850). It wasn't great, but I choose it purely because it was one of the few DCs that offered manual controls. It did it's job admirably, accompanying me to all the places a DLSR couldn't - rockclimbing, music concerts, etc. These days, if I want a compact camera, mostly I'll take the K20D with a small, fast prime. If I want a more compact camera, I'll slip the W90 in my pocket. But more often than not, I'm choosing between a camera that I can take outdoors (running, hiking, climbing, etc) and one that's worth too much to do that with. I know I'm going to get inferior images from the W90, but it's perfect for the function I require. It's worth considering exactly what purpose your compact will serve. (A G11 isn't significantly smaller than a Kx with a pancake anyway - fast flash sync tho!)

Back to the noise. It's not the amount of noise that's bothering me, it's the ugly nature of it. Considering how poor a job Pentax's W90 does cleaning up the noise, I'd probably prefer to just have a more raw output and clean it up myself. Top on my wishlist for the W90: Noise removal options, and some form of manual control, even buried in the menus!

Sorry for getting a bit off topic. On with the show!
~Joe

08-24-2010, 10:52 AM   #54
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QuoteOriginally posted by Gabeszfotó Quote
My bw:

Original: pitypang / puffball |bw puffball (by flickr)

Original exif:
K200D
Tamron 70-300 + Raynox DCR-250
100mm
f/4.5
1/160
ISO100
A wonderfull picture, Gabeszfotó but... You can't use your K200D in this contest, I'm afraid: K200D is an APS DSLR see rule #2.
This contest is for "point & shoot" - type cameras, much simpler than your K200D.
08-25-2010, 12:00 AM   #55
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QuoteOriginally posted by Bart Quote
A wonderfull picture, Gabeszfotó but... You can't use your K200D in this contest, I'm afraid: K200D is an APS DSLR see rule #2.
This contest is for "point & shoot" - type cameras, much simpler than your K200D.
Omg...realy...thanks, and sorry!
08-25-2010, 07:17 AM   #56
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I don't mean to go off topic, (and this isn't really off topic, per se), but I was just curious if anyone remembers the original intent behind the P&S Contest, and where the current rules banning medium format cameras altogether came from.

I can understand that medium format SLRs are indeed still SLRs...and I can totally understand view cameras being out of the picture. But what about box cameras, MF rangefinders, and the like? You can't possibly try to convince me that a Kodak Autographic Brownie #2 or a Holga isn't a "Point and Shoot".

And if medium format rangefinders are out because they've got too many manual controls, why are 35mm rangefinders okay?

Is the intent of this contest to take good pictures with a camera that has no manual controls? Or is the intent to take good pictures with cameras that have a small frame? Or is it the intent to take good pictures with cameras without Through-the-lens viewing?

On that last point, digital pocket cameras are out too, unless you shoot with the LCD turned off.

I'm not trying to stir the pot, just want to know the rationale behind the current rule set.
08-25-2010, 11:44 AM   #57
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It's something that grew and was amended over time.

As far as I see it, the intend was to get sort of a level playing field.
You could indeed discuss this over and over.
The fact that the dimensions are limited already makes for a certain levelling effect, I think. This puts the emphasis more on composition than on sheer IQ.
However with the larger sensors/negatives, you get a larger dynamic range. Can have an impact on the overall quality of the picture.

Have a look at the first contest.

There was some 'discontent' about some opening for larger non-(D)SLR's along the way and when I got the chance, I amended the rules: see contest #25
...
A note about the rules: we have had some discussions about the cameras to use. Up till now, the rules stated that anything but a SLR or DSLR was allowed. This strikes me and others as strange in a contest named "Point & Shoot contest". So, there was a difference between the spirit and the letter of the rules.
I did make a change, trying to bring clarity to this matter. We don't want a M9 or later on a 645D to enter the P&S contest, now do we.

...

That contest was won by barondla and he amended the rules some more. See contest #26
...
This is the 2nd anniversary for the Point & Shoot Contest. Great achievement for a competition some called a bad idea that wouldn't last. We have seen many great images, and expect to see many more. Congratualtions everyone. Thanks to everyone for participating. A special Thanks to Adam & Pentax Forums for relaxing the rules allowing so many non Pentax cameras to participate.

Have been considering the recent questions about which cameras are elligible. Bart did a nice job revising the standards. Agreed with most of the changes. Tweaked a couple for this contest.

It bothers me that rangefinder cameras were disqualified. The 35mm Leica and even smaller rangefinders are one of the roots of Point & shoot photography. Also seems a shame to disqualify one of the greatest point & shoot cameras of all time (and a Pentax no less) because its an slr. The Pentax A110(super) & Minolta 110 film SLRs deserve the chance to compete in this contest.
...

Since barondla is the founder of these contests, I find it only fitting to abide by this set of rules.

Well, you asked.
08-25-2010, 01:51 PM   #58
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I think this is a great idea. My first digital was an older Sony Cybershot and then I went to DSLRs and never gave the p&s world another thought. Until I started teaching a photography class to kids at a summer camp. We used Nikon coolpix cameras and I decided to get myself a couple Pentax p&s's. I'm having a blast with them and enjoying the challenge of getting good artistic shots in a situation where you don't have total control over everything. I hope to participate in future contests. I just don't have anything to contribute to this one
08-26-2010, 11:46 AM   #59
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Expect the next one begin September, mel.
That is if I can decide in time who wins this one
08-26-2010, 04:44 PM   #60
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QuoteQuote:
Well, you asked.
I did, and thank you for the detailed answer!

Again, I'm just asking for clarification and discussing with the purpose to discuss: I do not mean to stir the pot or rock the boat, I'm just curious and interested in the answers and people's thoughts on this:

QuoteOriginally posted by Bart Quote
It's something that grew and was amended over time.

As far as I see it, the intend was to get sort of a level playing field.
You could indeed discuss this over and over.
The fact that the dimensions are limited already makes for a certain levelling effect, I think. This puts the emphasis more on composition than on sheer IQ.
However with the larger sensors/negatives, you get a larger dynamic range. Can have an impact on the overall quality of the picture.

Have a look at the first contest.

There was some 'discontent' about some opening for larger non-(D)SLR's along the way and when I got the chance, I amended the rules: see contest #25
...
A note about the rules: we have had some discussions about the cameras to use. Up till now, the rules stated that anything but a SLR or DSLR was allowed. This strikes me and others as strange in a contest named "Point & Shoot contest". So, there was a difference between the spirit and the letter of the rules.
I did make a change, trying to bring clarity to this matter. We don't want a M9 or later on a 645D to enter the P&S contest, now do we.

...
I'm not disputing that a 645D would be the wrong thing for this contest, but that's an SLR anyway. I think View cameras and SLR/DSLR cameras of all types should be ineligible. But my real question is about disallowing all medium format. I mean, how is this camera not a point and shoot:



I mean yes, the larger format has some advantages, but it's not TtL viewing, nor is it in any way any more sophisticated than other cameras eligible for the contest. I mean, if the point is to get good results from equipment that has limited control, this would definitely qualify, and yet it's disqualified on the pure basis of its frame size. I think it would keep a level playing field to allow old box cameras and folders a chance to play. Heck, the blanket "No medium or large format" rule means you can't use a Polaroid either!

I also think Medium Format rangefinders (Like a Mamiya 7) would tilt the field, and would elect to keep them out. But then, don't Leica rangefinders have an unfair advantage in a P&S contest, too?

This all points back to the original question, which although you gave me a very detailed answer, I'm still fuzzy on. What is the intent of the point and shoot contest?

1. To get good results from cameras with few or no manual controls.

This would mean trying to get great results from cameras without the ability to tweak or shoot manually. Just "let the camera do its thing." This would disqualify most (or all) rangefinders, view cameras, SLRs, and even some compact digitals like the Panasonic LX3 and the Canon Powershot G11, not to mention EVIL/MILC cameras like the Olympus Pen EP-1/EP-2 and Sony NEX3/NEX5 series. Oddly the Pentax 110 SLRs would still be okay under this rule, but not the minoltas.

2. To get good results from cameras with small imaging sensors or film frames.

Well, this one is easy. 35mm or smaller, period, right? This (Wrongly) disqualifies all MF box/folding cameras. No Brownies, no folding cameras, no Kodak Duaflexes, not even a Polaroid. This would allow APS-C and FF Film and Digital SLRs and Rangefinders, and all manner of other stuff, including Mirrorless cameras like the NEX3/NEX5 and EP-1/EP-2. This isn't what we want.

3. To get good results from cameras for which you can't see the result in the viewfinder (Non-TtL Viewing.)

Well, this could work...this would allow all rangefinders (medium and large format) and all true point-and-shoot film cameras with a seperate viewfinder. Oddly it would also allow TLRs, as you don't look through the taking lens. It also disallows all live-view Point-and-shoot digitals.

I don't think any of these three approaches is what we really want. What we have in place right now is something of a mish-mash, and I mostly agree with the rules, except for the complete ban on medium format.

Defining what is and what is not a point and shoot is like being a dog with a shock collar in a yard with an invisible fence. You can't see the line, but you know when you've crossed it.

Last edited by unixrevolution; 08-26-2010 at 06:19 PM.
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