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09-21-2011, 06:53 AM   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by barondla Quote
My first entry with new Pentax Q. I finally own a Pentax compact camera. This was shot with the 8.5 normal lens. Before anyone blames the Q for poor quality, this is an extreme crop using less than 1/4 of the image size. Wish I had thought to take a photo this tight during the shoot..
thanks
barondla
Great image, Barondla! I think the Q gets a pass because we already have an exception for the Auto-110 for allowing Interchangeable-lens cameras.

09-21-2011, 01:15 PM   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by unixrevolution Quote
The x100 is a 35mm-or-smaller-format Non-SLR with non-interchangeable lenses. It qualifies.
Yes, that was clarified for me earlier

QuoteOriginally posted by unixrevolution Quote
And for the record, it's not actually a rangefinder.
Sorry. My mistake.
09-22-2011, 05:16 AM   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by unixrevolution Quote
Great image, Barondla! I think the Q gets a pass because we already have an exception for the Auto-110 for allowing Interchangeable-lens cameras.
Agreed! as the "Creator" of the contest i get to make, break and bend the rules..... (and it is a Pentax after all)

There's still time for more entries.....

Last edited by ivoire; 09-22-2011 at 02:57 PM.
09-23-2011, 07:10 AM   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by kyteflyer Quote
Sorry. My mistake.
No need to be sorry, just pointing it out. It's very Rangefinder-Like, but it's not a rangefinder, with the mechanical rangefinder mechanism.

I am a huge rangefinder fan, and I find the process of focusing the double-image in an RF to be cathartic. No doubt SLRs are more useful but I find RFs more enjoyable.

09-23-2011, 07:00 PM   #35
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Besides Leica, does any one make a rangefinder any more? I also find some thing special about using a real rangefinder. My image style even changes. It can be refreshing and tends to knock me out of a rut.

Glad the Q counts, since the dslr folk are convinced it can't be any good because it is tiny with a small sensor. Same thing we all face with our compact cameras.

thanks
barondla

Last edited by barondla; 09-23-2011 at 07:05 PM.
09-23-2011, 07:09 PM   #36
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QuoteOriginally posted by barondla Quote
Besides Leica, does any one make a rangefinder any more? I also find some thing special about using a real rangefinder. My image style even changes. It can be refreshing and tends to knock me out of a rut.

Glad the Q counts, since the dslr folk are convinced it can't be any good because it is tiny with a small sensor. Same thing we all face with our compact cameras.

thanks
barondla
Besides Leica, Voigtlander and Zeiss make 35mm Rangefinders, mamiya makes a medium format (6x7) interxhangeable in the 7 II, fuji and Voigtlander make 2 fixed lens 6x7 or 6x6 cameraa sold as the GW677 and Bessa III respectively, and Linhof makes the medium and large format Technicas.

There are no digital RFs in current production other than the Crop sensor M8 and full frame M9, though the first digital RF was the Epson RD-1 of 2006.
09-25-2011, 08:31 AM   #37
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Have just got back from trip to Cape Town, so here are my entries, all taken with Pentax X90...

Marimba Players entertaining people [f/3.5 1/100sec iso 125]
Attachment 104481

Having a beer in the Royal Navy Pub, Simonstown [f/2.8 1/30sec iso 400]
Attachment 104482

Last edited by Anton Magus; 07-11-2016 at 08:59 AM.
09-27-2011, 03:24 AM   #38
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Is it perhaps not time to remove from the rules the restriction #2 "No interchangeable lens cameras of any kind"?

Personally I think it is a bit unfair to permit super-zoom cameras but to reject entries taken with a camera that allows lens swapping. Does a small sensor camera with interchangeable lenses necessarily mean that the resulting images will have an unfair image quality advantage over photographs taken with a similarly small sensor zoom lens camera? I don't think so.

The term "point-and-shoot" was fine in the day when it described cameras with no (or very few) adjustments but today with automatic focus and automatic exposure setting, virtually every camera is a point-and-shoot. But does control over focus, ISO, shutter speed and aperture really make anyone a better photographer? Not really. It may allow you to take a photograph in poor lighting conditions, but it won't guarantee you will be a winner of every competition.

As far as I can see, the rules in the "point-and-shoot" competitions are simply designed to eliminate "DSLR" cameras, using m4/3, APS-C, FF or larger format sensors. They have their own competitions elsewhere on this forum. Right now we have entries for most competitions taken with a wide range of cameras, including phone cameras. Often the "winners" are those using the simplest cameras. The best photographs seem to mainly depend on the person behind the camera, not the camera itself. Our competitions are about interesting and unusual images rather than technically perfect images. Beyond anything, the purpose of our competitions should be to encourage people who do not usually use a fancy DSLR to take photographs and submit them with the goal of getting the best out of the camera (whatever it is) and improving their personal skills. Within reasonable boundaries, the camera you use should not be the limiting factor for entry to our competitions as long as it has very roughly equivalent capabilities to the cameras of the other entrants.

Maybe, to keep it as simple as possible, yet as wide as practical, the rules for permitted cameras should be along the lines of:
*** Small sensor digital cameras (smaller than micro 4/3 sensors) with fixed focal length, zoom or interchangeable lenses
*** Small format film cameras (Auto 110 but not bigger) with fixed focal length, zoom or interchangeable lenses
*** Larger format film cameras of the folding/box/Holga type fixed focus or scale-focus cameras

How do you feel about this?

09-27-2011, 04:05 AM   #39
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There was a discussion about this some 'contests' ago : https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-compact-digital-film-cameras/10682...st-33-b-w.html

Me, I think your list pretty much covers what was intended, even in the rules of this contests.
However, you seem to dismiss the class of rangefinders:
Fixed-lens 35mm and smaller-format film and digital rangefinder and viewfinder cameras
That would be a pity.

Anyway, the most certain way to be able to weigh in on the rules, is to win the contest

The winner makes up the next contest, including the rules

PS Nice entries, Anton!
09-27-2011, 05:21 AM   #40
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I'm in agreement with both of you (Anton, Bart). There are so many different cameras on the market that 'some' type of rules seem to be needed, mainly as a general guide to level the field. The camera is the tool, but the photographers skill plays the larger part in the quality of the image. To me, these competitions are more about the 'feel' of the image and how it fits the theme than technical quality (the main reason i like to enter). I have had to learn a bit more about several cameras as a result of entries. Bottom line... the contest winner gets to make the rules and has the final say in what is allowed.

Few days left for entries, post them soon!
09-27-2011, 06:42 AM   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by Anton Magus Quote
Is it perhaps not time to remove from the rules the restriction #2 "No interchangeable lens cameras of any kind"?

Personally I think it is a bit unfair to permit super-zoom cameras but to reject entries taken with a camera that allows lens swapping. Does a small sensor camera with interchangeable lenses necessarily mean that the resulting images will have an unfair image quality advantage over photographs taken with a similarly small sensor zoom lens camera? I don't think so.
It may, if there are a sufficient number of really good lenses for it. Being able to take that perfect shot with your prime vs someone having to use the built-in zoom on theirs could offer a big difference in image quality.

QuoteOriginally posted by Anton Magus Quote

The term "point-and-shoot" was fine in the day when it described cameras with no (or very few) adjustments but today with automatic focus and automatic exposure setting, virtually every camera is a point-and-shoot. But does control over focus, ISO, shutter speed and aperture really make anyone a better photographer? Not really. It may allow you to take a photograph in poor lighting conditions, but it won't guarantee you will be a winner of every competition.
Control over these things doesn't make one a better photographer, but having to work around the constraint of not having these controls gives the photographer a challenge. Back in Contest #33, as has been pointed out, I tried to find out if it was the inherently worse image quality or inherently less controllable operation that made a camera a true point-and-shoot. The consensus among the respondents who didn't just tell me not to worry about it was that it was mostly a control issue, with IQ being a second consideration. The current rules of the contest are designed to level the playing field in terms of showcasing photographer talent rather than camera snazziness...making a photographer work within a set of limitations to produce a great image.

The other idea was to limit specialized lens use and make it about photography, not about gear, ironically enough. In a contest previous to #42, it was brought up that interchangeable lens cameras should be taken out of the equation entirely; not just SLRs. This seemed reasonable to me, because an Olympus EP-1 and a Leica M2 are no more Point-and-shoots than a Pentax K-5.

QuoteOriginally posted by Anton Magus Quote

As far as I can see, the rules in the "point-and-shoot" competitions are simply designed to eliminate "DSLR" cameras, using m4/3, APS-C, FF or larger format sensors. They have their own competitions elsewhere on this forum. Right now we have entries for most competitions taken with a wide range of cameras, including phone cameras. Often the "winners" are those using the simplest cameras. The best photographs seem to mainly depend on the person behind the camera, not the camera itself. Our competitions are about interesting and unusual images rather than technically perfect images. Beyond anything, the purpose of our competitions should be to encourage people who do not usually use a fancy DSLR to take photographs and submit them with the goal of getting the best out of the camera (whatever it is) and improving their personal skills. Within reasonable boundaries, the camera you use should not be the limiting factor for entry to our competitions as long as it has very roughly equivalent capabilities to the cameras of the other entrants.
And the current rules reflect this very well, I think. Aside from the various Mirrorless cameras and the DSLR, it also cuts out fancy interchangeable-lens medium format stuff, which is definitely not a point and shoot either. The idea is that in one way or another, the current cameras allowable give the same amount of overall control over the image, allowing the photographer to really apply their skill. I don't think changing the rules to allow interchangeable-lens cameras would do anything to improve it, as you'd have clods like me who own Leicas and other such. The basic idea is that if the DSLR is bad, cameras that have similar functionality in terms of swapping between a set of very special, very optimized lenses is also bad. This means 35mm and digital RFs and mirrorless cameras are just as undesireable, mirror box or no mirror box.

QuoteOriginally posted by Anton Magus Quote

Maybe, to keep it as simple as possible, yet as wide as practical, the rules for permitted cameras should be along the lines of:
*** Small sensor digital cameras (smaller than micro 4/3 sensors) with fixed focal length, zoom or interchangeable lenses
*** Small format film cameras (Auto 110 but not bigger) with fixed focal length, zoom or interchangeable lenses
*** Larger format film cameras of the folding/box/Holga type fixed focus or scale-focus cameras

How do you feel about this?
There are a growing number of fixed-lens 4/3 and APS cameras, such as the Fuji X100, that I would classify as point and shoots. It seems unfair to exclude them.

So no 35mm or APS film cameras at all? Limiting the film camera entries to 110 film only, which is fairly rare nowadays, seems like just a de-facto ban on using film at all, except for the medium-format box/folding/LOMO cameras. There are tons of Scale-focus, auto-everything, and RF 35mm fixed lens cameras out there. I've entered more than one of these contests with them!

QuoteOriginally posted by Bart Quote
There was a discussion about this some 'contests' ago : https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-compact-digital-film-cameras/10682...st-33-b-w.html

Me, I think your list pretty much covers what was intended, even in the rules of this contests.
However, you seem to dismiss the class of rangefinders:
Fixed-lens 35mm and smaller-format film and digital rangefinder and viewfinder cameras
That would be a pity.

Anyway, the most certain way to be able to weigh in on the rules, is to win the contest

The winner makes up the next contest, including the rules

PS Nice entries, Anton!
That is true, and the reason the rules for allowable cameras are written as they are is because I wrote them up when I won.

QuoteOriginally posted by ivoire Quote
I'm in agreement with both of you (Anton, Bart). There are so many different cameras on the market that 'some' type of rules seem to be needed, mainly as a general guide to level the field. The camera is the tool, but the photographers skill plays the larger part in the quality of the image. To me, these competitions are more about the 'feel' of the image and how it fits the theme than technical quality (the main reason i like to enter). I have had to learn a bit more about several cameras as a result of entries. Bottom line... the contest winner gets to make the rules and has the final say in what is allowed.

Few days left for entries, post them soon!
Well said!
09-27-2011, 11:29 AM   #42
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QuoteOriginally posted by unixrevolution Quote
There are a growing number of fixed-lens 4/3 and APS cameras, such as the Fuji X100, that I would classify as point and shoots.
X100 a point and shoot?

Come on, P&S should have no manual controls. You just point and shoot. Maybe select a shooting mode, like portrait, landscape, etc. Once you get into A/T/M type of controls, it's an advanced photographic device. RAW is another powerful feature. And sensor size matters a lot. So the contest criteria shouldn't look at things like physical size or interchangeable or fixed lenses, but just at shooting controls, RAW capability, and sensor size. The point of restrictions should be to provide a level playing field. We'll still have to deal with differences between implementations, but at least the cameras allowed would all have similar capabilities and pose similar challenges in taking a shot.
09-27-2011, 12:18 PM   #43
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The main rule is.... The person who wins, makes the rules. You are then free to participate or not. I can see allowing any camera, setting a fixed focal length and leaving the camera in P Mode. then everyone is basically point and shoot. But again, The person who wins, makes the rules. Gotta face the fact that no group will ever agree on 'all' the rules.

So if you meet the rules of this competition, theres still time to join in.... or...... more photos, less noise....

Last edited by ivoire; 09-27-2011 at 12:30 PM.
09-27-2011, 01:13 PM   #44
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Rather than drag this out in here, spill everyone's drinks and cause a mess, I've decided to take the Point and Shoot discussion elsewhere:

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-compact-digital-film-cameras/16041...ml#post1662985

Anyone, like me, who just enjoys discussions or arguments about what is or is not a point and shoot, can join me in that thread.

We now return you to a much more peaceful contest.
09-27-2011, 04:22 PM   #45
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QuoteOriginally posted by Laurentiu Cristofor Quote
X100 a point and shoot?

Come on, P&S should have no manual controls. You just point and shoot. Maybe select a shooting mode, like portrait, landscape, etc. Once you get into A/T/M type of controls, it's an advanced photographic device. RAW is another powerful feature. And sensor size matters a lot. So the contest criteria shouldn't look at things like physical size or interchangeable or fixed lenses, but just at shooting controls, RAW capability, and sensor size. The point of restrictions should be to provide a level playing field. We'll still have to deal with differences between implementations, but at least the cameras allowed would all have similar capabilities and pose similar challenges in taking a shot.
Actually... I agree with this, and so I will remove my X100 shot from the competition. But, perhaps I should not also use the F550, which is RAW capable, and has manual controls, even though its compact, and pocketable.

Now, I am confused. Not about whats acceptable, but about what I think ought to be.
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