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12-09-2011, 12:39 AM   #136
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QuoteOriginally posted by Laurentiu Cristofor Quote
There cannot be much correlation between sensor size and winning, because there is no significant difference between sensor sizes to begin with - most shots are taken with compact cameras that use 1/2.3" sensors. The "larger" sensors are just 1/1.7" - such differences don't really matter much unless you pixel peep and the submissions are usually small size anyway.
That is quite true for most of the entries from digital cameras but there were also submissions from APS-C sensor cameras and quite a few from 35mm and 120 film cameras. I do however completely agree with you that when judging images resized to 1024 x 768 pixels or smaller, the size of the sensor used to create the original image makes little difference. In 10 straight competitions the winner and second and third places were awarded to images taken on small sensor digital cameras. Film and larger sensors, even where images were entered, didn't seem to show any real advantage. Anyway, these contests have never been judged on superior IQ but rather on the way they fit the theme and on the appeal and composition of the image.

QuoteOriginally posted by Laurentiu Cristofor Quote
There is also rather small participation in this contest, so what you'll get is a reflection of the current group of participants, rather than general conclusions about what results you would get in a photographic contest. If we relax the rules to allow any camera, you will see both increased participation and very different results (by allowing DSLRs and larger sensor cameras, we'll basically open up the contest to the majority of the users of this forum - as can be easily seen from statistics, most activity on PF is driven by Pentax DSLRs, not by Pentax compact cameras).
Again, I completely agree with you. The last 10 Point & Shoot contests only attracted entries from 25 different photographers against the several hundred photographers who enter every DSLR competition elsewhere on this website. Indeed the Point & Shoot contests only have a "hard core" of 14 to 16 "regular" entrants who obviously derive much enjoyment from them. The other entries are from people who drift in, submit a few entries to one contest and then disappear.

QuoteOriginally posted by Laurentiu Cristofor Quote
In the end, I think we should maybe revisit what is the goal of the contest and then fashion the rules so that they allow us to reach that goal. We seem to have a hard time defining what a P&S camera is, so defining the goal in terms of P&S cameras will probably not work well. If we want an open photo contest, I'm for it.
I suspect that defining the goal of the Point & Shoot contest will prove as difficult as defining a P&S camera. The goal of the contest seems to be different for different entrants?

>> For all the regular participants, the P&S contest is fun. Whether it is the pleasure of getting you out to shoot some new images, or the pleasure of remembering good times as you search through old images, its fun.
>> For some of the hard core group each monthly competition is an opportunity to upload a few photographs and engage in some light-hearted banter with friends on the forum - the "social" aspect is as important as the entries.
>> For some the contest provides an opportunity to challenge themselves to get some stunning images out of cameras which are not designed to produce those results. For them its like fishing for marlin with 5# line.
>> For a few the contest provides a learning experience. The challenge of figuring out what makes a winning photograph and how to do that (consistently) with this little camera?
>> Maybe one or two entrants see it as a serious photo competition.
>> On rare occasions, the P&S contest provides a medium for someone to show off results from their new camera.
>> For all the regular participants, the goal of the contest may change from contest to contest - only the "fun" aspect remains consistent.

It now becomes understandable why you will get an angry reaction when you ban a particular camera. Anyone who has been using that "banned" camera as their entry ticket to the contest now feels excluded and rejected. The person who has just bought the Pentax Q wants to show it off. They can't use it in the DSLR contests - its too small and is ridiculed by DSLR owners. Now they can't use it in the P&S contests either - its has interchangeable lenses. There is no place for this person...

Can we reasonably expect anyone to specifically buy a camera which suits our definition of a P&S just so they can enter these competitions? Of course not. You buy a camera which best suits your purpose and entering the P&S contest is a secondary benefit. Do we want to eliminate the participation in the P&S contest of any of the "hard core" of 14 to 16 regular participants by banning their cameras? Hell, NO. They are the ones who keep it going and fun for everyone. Is there any real benefit to splitting the contest into a "Fun Contest" for any non-DSLR cameras and a "Serious Contest" for true compact digital P&S cameras? Maybe, but I doubt that you will get enough regular support to keep the serious P&S contests going.

My own feeling is that the P&S contests should be as inclusive as possible. Film cameras and digital cameras welcome per the "old rules". On top of that I would seriously recommend allowing interchangeable lens cameras provided the digital sensor is smaller than 4/3 (or film size of 110 and smaller), and also allow digital sensors of 4/3 and larger (or film sizes to medium format), on fixed lens cameras.

The entries to each P&S contest will be judged, as now, on how well the photograph fits the theme of the contest, and then on the composition of the image.

If it offends anyone to call it a P&S contest when it allows cameras which are larger than can fit in a pocket, or have manual settings, or have interchangeable lenses, or whatever, then change the name of the contest!

12-09-2011, 04:44 AM - 1 Like   #137
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I finally had a chance to sit down and read the thread.

I quit participating in the contests quite a while back, when something went wrong and I won the damned thing and had to set up and judge the next one. I had been thinking in the last couple of weeks that maybe I would start following them and participating in them again....then I read this thread and lost the urge.

I liked it back when the oh-so-lax rule was essentially, "Anything other than an SLR". Now, I always thought it odd to call it a P&S contest with that as the criterion, but since the bulk of what we here on PF do is so (D)SLR-centric it struck me as a good idea to encourage having a little fun shooting with something else....anything else....every now and then. The whole notion of someone having an "advantage", whether fair or unfair, based on what they shot with just screams "I take this way the hell too seriously!!!" Probably too uptight to let their small children beat them in a game of checkers, I bet.

I can't believe the "contest" has gone from being the most lighthearted and fun pseudo-competition on the site to being able to spawn page after page of angst over the mind-numbing minutiae of what does or does not, should or should not, constitute a P&S camera. There seems to me to be a rather large disconnect between the FUN inherent in the sort of shots one typically takes with a P&S (or when in a P&S frame of mind, which is more pertinent, I think) and the UPTIGHT frame of mind displayed by so much of this thread. We've gone from a lighthearted swapping of pictures and introducing our non-SLR cameras to each other to now having to analyze our cameras against a chart and calculate points to see if the camera is according-to-Hoyle or not? Seriously? Is that what it has come to?
12-09-2011, 07:05 AM   #138
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mike Cash Quote
I finally had a chance to sit down and read the thread.

I quit participating in the contests quite a while back, when something went wrong and I won the damned thing and had to set up and judge the next one. I had been thinking in the last couple of weeks that maybe I would start following them and participating in them again....then I read this thread and lost the urge.

I liked it back when the oh-so-lax rule was essentially, "Anything other than an SLR". Now, I always thought it odd to call it a P&S contest with that as the criterion, but since the bulk of what we here on PF do is so (D)SLR-centric it struck me as a good idea to encourage having a little fun shooting with something else....anything else....every now and then. The whole notion of someone having an "advantage", whether fair or unfair, based on what they shot with just screams "I take this way the hell too seriously!!!" Probably too uptight to let their small children beat them in a game of checkers, I bet.

I can't believe the "contest" has gone from being the most lighthearted and fun pseudo-competition on the site to being able to spawn page after page of angst over the mind-numbing minutiae of what does or does not, should or should not, constitute a P&S camera. There seems to me to be a rather large disconnect between the FUN inherent in the sort of shots one typically takes with a P&S (or when in a P&S frame of mind, which is more pertinent, I think) and the UPTIGHT frame of mind displayed by so much of this thread. We've gone from a lighthearted swapping of pictures and introducing our non-SLR cameras to each other to now having to analyze our cameras against a chart and calculate points to see if the camera is according-to-Hoyle or not? Seriously? Is that what it has come to?
Great post, and I agree that this contest should be the non-(D)SLR contest. However, I also feel that those who may have some of the classic large/medium format cameras, that while they could be labelled point and shoots, shouldn't be entering shots from them up against an iphone or the like. There are plenty of other places on the forum to "show off" some shots from a our cameras, whether under the film thread, gallery, or even post your photos. They could even be posted to the contest thread if they fit the theme, but labelled "not for judging". So,though the nature of this contest should be to have fun, share shots, etc, the flip side of what you're calling an uptight frame of mind is the person who enters a friendly competition with a shot from a camera that is so clearly a "pro" camera, but just not an SLR. Doesn't that bring in the same sort of negativity to the comps?

Having the judge set the rules and accept/not accept certain shots/cameras will lead to less participation due to the same feelings that have lead you to not participate, i.e. "why bother entering since my camera might be disqualified" or "I don't want to have to judge and possibly offend someone by not choosing a great shot because I don't feel their camera qualifies as a point and shoot," or "why enter since I don't stand a chance against these other better cameras." Hence, we find ourselves in a discussion, admittedly getting way too intricate, as to what should be allowed, and trying to do it in a way that takes the decision off the judges' shoulders and clearly into the rules section.

I think the easiest, most inclusive way to do this would be:

No SLR cameras, whether film or digital.
No large/medium format cameras, whether film or digital.
No cameras where a tripod was necessary for the setup due to the bulkiness of the camera (i.e. if Ansel Adams would be using it, it's disqualified)
No cameras that, while they could be handheld, the resolution was so great that they doubled as aerial reconaissance cameras.

Finally, if it doesn't fit into the above list, and if your granny could use it, or at least know it's something that can take pictures, it qualifies.

There. Does that sound as inclusive as possible while weeding out clear game changers? Really, if someone wins the competition with a camera that isn't reasonably a point and shoot, it's a hollow victory anyway.
12-09-2011, 09:04 AM   #139
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That still excludes the box Brownie, which is not only a camera my grandmother actually did use, it also happens to be the original and still unsurpassed P&S. Any rule or set of rules which manages to exclude a box Brownie can not be said to have sufficiently captured the essence of P&S. As the thread has shown, this is going to prove an impossible task so long as people get hung up on definitions based on physical characteristics rather than on the spirit of the thing.

12-09-2011, 10:42 AM   #140
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I guess it's excluded due to film size but that wasn't the intent which is why in my last sentence I included the word "reasonably." No one should confuse a 645 or 6x7 Haselblad/Mamiya/Pentax, etc.... with a Brownie. But, how else would you word it to exclude professional medium/large format cameras without someone then challenging the term professional? I suppose you could include an overall waiver for ANY camera if it's more than ____ years old. Call it the "grannie clause".
12-09-2011, 01:41 PM   #141
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QuoteOriginally posted by kyteflyer Quote
Well, I'm seriously confused. I don't own a camera that doesnt have manual controls. Even my 3.2MP Olympus c760 does. So here's what I am going to do for future competitions.. in the other thread I was looking for a Pentax P&S but I'm not going to go down that path, I'm going to get the smallest P&S I can find, and see what I can do with it. Something that will fit in a top pocket and is smaller than a pack of ciggies. I think Nikon make something like that. I'll go look at cheapies next week after I get paid
FWIW, the contest rules don't prevent using a camera with manual controls - that was just one of the ideas discussed in this thread.
12-09-2011, 01:42 PM   #142
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What, this is still ongoing? OK, I'll blather a bit more. First, it's only of theoretical interest to me, as I don't enter contests. [I'll skip the travails of a contest into which I was entered, that nearly drove me away from PFC.] Second, I think the P&S spirit excludes serious sophisticated gear, includes simpler easier gear. This justifies an exclusion list (and I'll get to that shortly). And third, I see nothing wrong with each contest judge defining the exclusion list for any given contest. That'll keep participants on their toes.

OK, exclusions. Here are what I consider to NOT be P&S cams:

1) No SLRs, film or digital, fixed or interchangeable lens, any frame size.
2) No interchangeable-lens cameras, whether RF-SLR-TLR-cine, whatever.
3) No camera requiring a tripod. Set an arbitrary weight limit of 1kg / 2.2lbs.

#1 and #2 should be pretty obvious. SLRs and ILCs are sophisticated. Do simple fixed-lens SLRs exist? Are many dSLRs used effectively as P&S with only a single lens in Auto mode? Do fairly simple ILCs exist, like the old Argus C3? Yeah. Too bad. Gotta set limits somewhere.

#3 has implications. NO TRIPOD REQUIRED eliminates pinholes and larger view.cams. The weight limit eliminates bulkier gear that *could* be handheld but ain't really in the P&S spirit. (Don't include attached tin-bowl or potato-masher flashes in the weight metric.)

Those are simple physical parameters. Certain other features *could* be excluded, but these are trickier and debatable and I don't really agree with them:

4) No wired webcams, security cams, any fixed installation gear.
4a) In fact, no tripodded or immobilized cameras - handheld only.
5) No frames extracted from cine|video streams of any camera.
6) No external flash|lighting. Onboard flash only. Diffusers are OK.

All these are meant to fulfill the P&S spirit: You just stand there, looking cute / And when something moves, you shoot! as Tom Lehrer sang. We don't point-and-shoot with a fixed camera, nor with fancy lighting setups. We DO point-and-shoot with a lightweight cine|video cam, although extracting a frame certainly isn't a decisive moment technique.

The (1-3) exclusion list has only one metric, weight. No bother measuring frame sizes or whatever. The (4-6) list is more about technique than technicalities. I think both lists are pretty simple and straightforward. Ah, just some more stuff to think about. Cheers!

Last edited by RioRico; 12-09-2011 at 01:48 PM.
12-09-2011, 01:53 PM   #143
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Anton, good points there on what the goals should be.

Here's an idea. Any digital camera with small sensor is allowed by default. Any other camera is allowed as long as people come with a justification for why it's fair to compare its result with that taken by the small sensor cameras. This way there are no restrictions, and we spice the social aspect with interesting justifications. if the justification flies, we add the camera to a list of allowed cameras, so no more justifications are needed in the future. With just 24 participants, how many such cameras can we realistically get? We could also admit shots on an individual basis even if we don't admit the camera in general. Justification could be - "it was shot at infinity and at this size it looks as good as a compact camera shot".

12-09-2011, 02:44 PM   #144
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I never would have even known what the sensor size on my Fuji or Olympus were had it not been brought up ad nauseum here. Starting a list of specific models, IMHO, is a waste of time as things are constantly changing, and having to wade thru a bunch of rules, or run the justification gauntlet would turn me off from entering if I were new to PF or had just come across the contest thread.

Anton's list could be distilled to:

No interchangeable lens cameras no matter what the size or format
If it has to be, or is typically tripod mounted due to weight weight (over 1kg) or bulk it does not qualify.

If you feel the need to justify why your camera should be exempted from the above rules, you're taking this too seriously. Post your shots with it in a more fitting location, we'd love to see them.
12-10-2011, 01:26 AM   #145
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Now we are starting to get somewhere. The focus (pardon the pun) has to be on the fun and if the entries are judged on how well they match the theme and on their composition, and NOT on pure image quality, lack of noise and so on, then the camera really doesn't matter that much.

QuoteOriginally posted by jheu02 Quote
No interchangeable lens cameras no matter what the size or format
If it has to be, or is typically tripod mounted due to weight weight (over 1kg) or bulk it does not qualify.
I have no problem with interchangeable lenses provided they are cameras with small sensors. Its only when you start entering with a camera with interchangeable lenses and APS-C sensor that (for me) it is getting too near a DSLR and into the realms of serious and maybe professional equipment. The Pentax Q and even the Nikon 1 can happily be included but I personally draw the line at micro 4/3 system cameras.
I also have no beef with film cameras (irrespective of their size and weight), but the same thinking applies. No SLR's or interchangeable lenses unless the film format is "half-frame 35mm" or smaller. Fixed lens medium format 6x9, 6x7, 6x6, and 6x4.5 film cameras are fine.

So, I would make the rules very simple:-

RULES OF THE FUN FOTO CONTEST
FOR NON-DSLR, COMPACT AND OTHER CAMERAS

> The object of the contest is to have fun. Entries from new photographers are very welcome.
> Any fixed (non-interchangeable) lens camera may be used, film or digital, including phone cams.
> Interchangeable lens cameras may only be used if they have a sensor size smaller than micro 4/3 format, or a film size of half-frame 35mm or smaller.

> A maximum of 3 photographs may be entered for the contest but additional photographs may be submitted for fun as long as they are clearly marked. Later entries may be substituted for earlier ones.
> The maximum size of each entry is 1024 pixels along its longest side. Smaller sized entries are fine. Entries may be shot using different cameras.
> For the interest of all participants, the camera make and model, pertinent exif data (f/stop, shutter speed, ISO, focal length of the lens) and other information of interest should be included with each entry.
> Entries may be color, black & white or sepia and post processing is permitted provided you share the details.
> The photographs entered will be judged on how well the picture fits the theme of the competition and on the composition of the entry. Image quality, by itself,

> The judge for each contest selects the entries they consider to have come 1st, 2nd & 3rd. Ties for 2nd and 3rd place are permitted. The judge may also award a "Special Mention" to any entries. The judge's decision is final.
> The winner of each contest will set the theme, the closing date & time, and judge the entries submitted for the next contest.

> Once you have entered 3 consecutive contests you will be regarded as a "regular participant" provided you continue to enter each monthly contest.
> These rules may only be changed by consensus and agreement of the "regular participants".
The way things are going, this is probably what we will end up with, either for the current "Point & Shoot" Contest, or for a breakaway rival to it.
12-10-2011, 02:05 AM   #146
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My proposed easy-as-pie test:

1. Is the camera a (D)SLR?
2. Do you have a stick up your ass?

If you answer "No" to both questions, then your picture goes in the contest.
12-10-2011, 05:42 AM   #147
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mike Cash Quote
My proposed easy-as-pie test:

1. Is the camera a (D)SLR?
2. Do you have a stick up your ass?

If you answer "No" to both questions, then your picture goes in the contest.
I thought the point (ha ha) of a P&S was that one must be able to readily point it and shoot it. A large bulky cam that needs sticks (tripod) under it, ain't a P&S. A Mamiya C330 ain't a P&S. A pinhole cam ain't a P&S. If you can't just whip it out and use it, it ain't a P&S. Sticks need not be inserted into any bodily orifice to realize this. That's why I suggested simple criteria: no SLRs, no interchangeable lenses, and a 1kg weight limit. That still leaves much room for many many cameras.
12-10-2011, 06:23 AM   #148
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Yeah, I see your point. But please keep in mind that my comments are strongly colored by the days when the "P&S" part of the contest seemed to be just a default based on what part of the site the contest got hosted in. It used to be simply "No SLR" and I never knew it had changed until this thread caught my eye. Back in the days when it was simply "No SLR" we never had these sort of problems. That's why I think an approach to solving the problem that focuses merely on the equipment is a half-solution at best. It is the stick-up-the-butt crowd that worries about "unfair advantage" in something as inconsequential as these contests and sucks all the fun out of it for everybody else.
12-10-2011, 03:53 PM   #149
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mike Cash Quote
Yeah, I see your point. But please keep in mind that my comments are strongly colored by the days when the "P&S" part of the contest seemed to be just a default based on what part of the site the contest got hosted in. It used to be simply "No SLR" and I never knew it had changed until this thread caught my eye. Back in the days when it was simply "No SLR" we never had these sort of problems. That's why I think an approach to solving the problem that focuses merely on the equipment is a half-solution at best. It is the stick-up-the-butt crowd that worries about "unfair advantage" in something as inconsequential as these contests and sucks all the fun out of it for everybody else.
I can see what you're saying here. BUT, I'd say the fun sucking started when some were entering photos with basically pro-level equipment, just not a (D)SLR, in a contest designated Point and Shoot, and then justifying why their camera counted as a point and shoot. When there's a bunch of "wiggle room" or vaguery in the rules, some just seem determined to see how far they can bend them. Just look at politicians..."it depends on what your definition of 'is' is."

The idea that "any" fixed lens camera should be allowed will be fine for some. But as Erik pointed out about the Medalist, though it had a fixed lens, it was a pro-level camera. If it is to be allowed simply because you couldn't change the lens, why not allow SLRs? There's nothing inherently superior about interchangeable-lens cameras, but the perception is that if you can change lenses, it must be better and not a Point and Shoot. We all know there's some lousy lenses out there, so the fact that a camera can swap lenses doesn't necessarily give it an advantage either. As an exercise in silliness, let's say someone has a K-5 and he/she put a Rikenon P 50mm 1.4 and the lens is now stuck on the body...rendering it non-interchangeable. You could make an argument that it was now a fixed lens camera. Should it now be allowed for the Point and Shoot contest? You'll say "no, because it's sensor is too big." Then why allow a pro film camera with an even larger "sensor" than a 35mm just because you can't swap out the lens?

That's the problem with arguing simply no SLR allowed. So, a base-level rule list needs to be set for what is reasonably a compact film or digital camera, fondly known as a Point and Shoot. Otherwise, it may as well just be called the "anything but SLR goes contest." Of course, it should then be moved out of the "Compact Digital and Film Camera" section of the forums because it's no longer a compact camera contest.

EDIT: Though I used "you" and "you'll" I wasn't directing it at you Mike, just a generalized "you". I should have said "one" and "someone." Hope you didn't take offense as none was intended. I was sort-of responding to several posts, but only quoted yours.

Last edited by jheu02; 12-10-2011 at 08:18 PM.
12-10-2011, 11:53 PM   #150
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When you have a digital camera with a combination of a large sensor and a fast lens with phase detection auto-focus then it is not only easy to get a sharp subject and really good bokeh effect in your resulting image, its actually difficult to avoid it. Conversely with a small sensor camera with a relatively slow lens and contrast detection auto-focus it is very difficult to get a decent bokeh effect. The images created have huge depth of field. It is that bokeh effect from the DSLR which is the main problem because it makes even a really badly composed photograph look good. All the background clutter is automatically removed. That's why DSLRs should not be acceptable in the contest.

Interchangeable lenses in themselves are no great advantage, particularly when mounted on a small sensor camera. I have read all the reviews and studied all the sample images and am yet to be convinced that the Pentax Q creates photographs with an image quality noticeably better than the better fixed lens compact cameras. And it seems to me most Pentax Q owners take all their images with only one of the two "proper" lenses anyway. Consequently nobody in the contest should fear that the Pentax Q is going to walk off the winner of every contest.

Finally, as far as film cameras go, their users have to take a shot, get it developed and printed and then scanned to digital and uploaded to the site. I say if they are dedicated enough to do all that, for goodness sake let them enter. Besides I don't see that a film camera entry has ever won the contest, so that should tell you that they have no unfair advantage. Realistically they should be jumping up and down about the advantage digital cameras have over film.

This whole discussion began because people entered photographs taken with cameras that were outside the existing rules and then asked the judge if they were acceptable. It is wholly unfair to throw that decision onto the judge. If they accept the entry they risk annoying the other entrants. If they reject the entry they risk irritating that entrant. Its a no-win situation for the judge and that's unfair. So make the rules simple and only allow changes by consensus, so the judge is not put between a rock and a hard place.
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