Forgot Password
Pentax Camera Forums Home
 

Reply
Show Printable Version Search this Thread
12-11-2011, 12:23 AM   #151
Veteran Member
Anton Magus's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Durban, South Africa
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 345
Just to muddy the waters a bit more, the terminology seems to have evolved as well.
Maybe two years ago the flat bodied cameras with a small lens on the front and a LCD screen on the back were "Point & Shoot" cameras. Then they changed to being called "Compact" cameras. Now they are "Ultra-Compact" cameras. Cameras that looked a bit like a DSLR but had fixed lenses and EVFs were "Bridge" Cameras. Now they are the "Compact" cameras, or maybe "Super-Zoom Compact" cameras. The "Point & Shoot" terminology has switched to now apply to ANY camera, even a DSLR, that has automatic scene recognition, to determine the best aperture setting and shutter speed, and automatic focusing. Even on PentaxForums, non-DSLRs are covered by the "Compact-Digital-Film-cameras" section.

Perhaps then Point & Shoot contests should be renamed to "Compact Camera Contests"?

12-11-2011, 02:26 AM   #152
Veteran Member
Mike Cash's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Japan
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 6,952
QuoteOriginally posted by jheu02 Quote
I can see what you're saying here. BUT, I'd say the fun sucking started when some were entering photos with basically pro-level equipment, just not a (D)SLR, in a contest designated Point and Shoot, and then justifying why their camera counted as a point and shoot. When there's a bunch of "wiggle room" or vaguery in the rules, some just seem determined to see how far they can bend them. Just look at politicians..."it depends on what your definition of 'is' is."
Those are the "stick up their ass" people I was talking about. You would think that in a group of adults we could count on people to participate in a spirit of fun and sort of police themselves whether the photo was taken in the spirit of P&S. Unfortunately, we no longer can count on that. I can't tell you how surprised I was to learn that anyone was even talking about the notion of "unfair" or "advantage" in regard to the P&S contests.
We all say "It isn't the camera; it's the photographer" but apparently some of either don't mean it or don't believe it.

QuoteQuote:
The idea that "any" fixed lens camera should be allowed will be fine for some. But as Erik pointed out about the Medalist, though it had a fixed lens, it was a pro-level camera. If it is to be allowed simply because you couldn't change the lens, why not allow SLRs? There's nothing inherently superior about interchangeable-lens cameras, but the perception is that if you can change lenses, it must be better and not a Point and Shoot. We all know there's some lousy lenses out there, so the fact that a camera can swap lenses doesn't necessarily give it an advantage either. As an exercise in silliness, let's say someone has a K-5 and he/she put a Rikenon P 50mm 1.4 and the lens is now stuck on the body...rendering it non-interchangeable. You could make an argument that it was now a fixed lens camera. Should it now be allowed for the Point and Shoot contest? You'll say "no, because it's sensor is too big." Then why allow a pro film camera with an even larger "sensor" than a 35mm just because you can't swap out the lens?

That's the problem with arguing simply no SLR allowed. So, a base-level rule list needs to be set for what is reasonably a compact film or digital camera, fondly known as a Point and Shoot. Otherwise, it may as well just be called the "anything but SLR goes contest." Of course, it should then be moved out of the "Compact Digital and Film Camera" section of the forums because it's no longer a compact camera contest.
That's the problem with arguing simply no SLR allowed....if one takes a gear-based approach to it and presumes that an inferior shooter with a superior camera has an advantage over a superior shooter with an inferior camera. I reject any gear-based approach for two reasons: 1)as can be seen, the parameters can be argued ad infinitum and 2)the site revolves probably 99% around SLR use and I think a good function of the contest is to encourage the use of other stuff. True enough, the name is misleading/inappropriate but that could easily be fixed by changing the name. Or we could just not be so hung up on the name. If we want to get hung up on picayunish details like that, then we should bar non-Pentax gear as this is hosted under "PentaxForums.com --> Pentax Mirrorless and Compact Camera --> Pentax Compact Digital & Film Cameras"
12-11-2011, 02:22 PM   #153
Pentaxian
kyteflyer's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Newcastle, Australia
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 1,313
QuoteOriginally posted by Anton Magus Quote

This whole discussion began because people entered photographs taken with cameras that were outside the existing rules and then asked the judge if they were acceptable. It is wholly unfair to throw that decision onto the judge. [/B]
With the angst and carryon that that single action has caused, including this thread, and the continued nonsense in the others, I am really seriously considering not bothering ever again.

"People" did not. it was me and my X100 and I withdrew the shot before being told I must (in fact I was told it was perfectly OK), and I have no issue with that. On the matter of the actual entry, it was taken with the topic in mind and was taken on automatic, whilst looking at the LCD screen on the back. Cant get much more point and shoot than that. And I did NOT enter with the intent of gaining any advantage over others. The only time I have won was with an old shot off my C760. Its not the gear that makes the difference.

Truly, this whole thing has gone too far. Its just ridiculous.
12-11-2011, 03:41 PM   #154
Site Supporter
jheu02's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: North Carolina
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 2,181
IIRC, there were also some excellent film shots entered earlier than your x100, but they were with medium format. I don't recall wether fixed lens or not, but certainly out of the realm of what I always thought was the spirit of a point and shoot contest. The reason I'm looking for more specifics on the rules is for the sake of the judges, as like Anton, I feel they shouldn't be put in the spot of deciding whether a camera qualifies. I also agree, Mike, that it's not the gear, it's the photographer, except when you figure that there are many very fine photogs here. So we are back at square one. It seems in everybody's best interest to get the spirit of the contest (fun, inclusiveness, etc) back into it by removing the doubt about gear. If it's decided that it should go back to anything but SLR, so be it. Just call it that so when someone wants to enter, but doesn't read the rules, it will still be clear what class of camera is excluded. At least then whoever decides to enter will know what to expect, and the judge won't be put in a bad position.

12-11-2011, 03:42 PM   #155
Site Supporter
jheu02's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: North Carolina
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 2,181
IIRC, there were also some excellent film shots entered earlier than your x100, but they were with medium format. I don't recall whether fixed lens or not, but certainly out of the realm of what I always thought was the spirit of a point and shoot contest. The reason I'm looking for more specifics on the rules is for the sake of the judges, as like Anton, I feel they shouldn't be put in the spot of deciding whether a camera qualifies. I also agree, Mike, that it's not the gear, it's the photographer, except when you figure that there are many very fine photogs here. So we are back at square one. It seems in everybody's best interest to get the spirit of the contest (fun, inclusiveness, etc) back into it by removing the doubt about gear. If it's decided that it should go back to anything but SLR, so be it. Just call it that so when someone wants to enter, but doesn't read the rules, it will still be clear what class of camera is excluded. At least then whoever decides to enter will know what to expect, and the judge won't be put in a bad position.
12-11-2011, 06:36 PM   #156
Pentaxian
kyteflyer's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Newcastle, Australia
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 1,313
QuoteOriginally posted by jheu02 Quote
IIRC, there were also some excellent film shots entered earlier than your x100, but they were with medium format.
I dont know, i dont recall seeing any medium format stuff, and in my case the judge was not put in a really bad position because *I* made the decision to withdraw it, in spite of being encouraged not to withdraw. As far as I know, I am the only one who has asked if a particular camera was OK after submitting, and so I'm not sure why everyone is so angst-ridden over whether the judge is in a bad position or not. The judge makes the rules in the first place. Clarification should be part of the job, if requested.

Last edited by kyteflyer; 12-11-2011 at 06:43 PM. Reason: additional rant
12-11-2011, 07:30 PM   #157
Site Supporter
jheu02's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: North Carolina
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 2,181
QuoteOriginally posted by kyteflyer Quote
I'm not sure why everyone is so angst-ridden over whether the judge is in a bad position or not. The judge makes the rules in the first place. Clarification should be part of the job, if requested.
Fair enough. That's where I differ a little. Over in the weekly challenge sections the rules are pretty much standard. The winner of any particular challenge is the next judge, like here, but then may (Weekly Challenge) or may not (Project 52) even pick the next challenge topic. Some challenges require the shots to be taken that specific week, others you can go to the archives, some restrict the use of camera to Pentax/Samsung, while P52 can be a little more open since the focus is usually on specific techniques, which are camera independent. An issue came up about brand of camera during P52 once, someone using a full-frame Nikon IIRC vs Pentax gear. It was settled fairly quickly since that challenge is based on technique.

It just seems that it might make the contest more fun and open if the basic "format" of the contest was kept the same, with the judge only determining the next theme and perhaps whether archive shots will be allowed or not. Personally, though I've been able to enter some of them due to archived shots, I think I prefer having to think about the topic and go out and shoot it, i.e. only shots taken during the duration of the contest count. That's definitely tougher to do with film than digital though.
12-11-2011, 07:42 PM   #158
Veteran Member
Laurentiu Cristofor's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: WA
Photos: Albums
Posts: 3,044
QuoteOriginally posted by kyteflyer Quote
With the angst and carryon that that single action has caused, including this thread, and the continued nonsense in the others, I am really seriously considering not bothering ever again.
That would be a mistake - you are not the reason for this thread. The rules were inconsistent. They allowed fixed lens cameras with large sensor but not the Q because it has interchangeable lenses - where is the sense in that? And the X100 was allowed according to the old rules under the first exception for permitted cameras: "Fixed-lens 35mm and smaller-format film and digital rangefinder and viewfinder cameras" - so you were in the right to post an X100 shot and nobody has any right to complain about that. I am surprised that people fight for using Brownie cameras, but are ok with banning the Q - this contest shouldn't make it hard to show off the capabilities of the compact cameras that Pentax makes.

12-11-2011, 08:13 PM   #159
Veteran Member
Mike Cash's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Japan
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 6,952
Who argued both for the Brownie and against the Q?
12-11-2011, 08:18 PM   #160
Site Supporter
jheu02's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: North Carolina
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 2,181
Just a little history to bring some perspective as to why I feel the rules shouldn't really be up to the judge to keep changing, and why this discussion keeps recurring as technology continues to advance. While I was typing this up Laurentiu has made another very valid point: why SHOULDN'T a PENTAX compact camera be allowed in a compact camera contest hosted on Pentax Forums, while numerous 3rd party ones can. I'd be all for the contest being based on bulk/weight of the camera, regardless of sensor or lens interchangability. A grannie clause could be included for the Brownie from a historical standpoint, but notice bullet #2 from the free online dictionary:

comĚpact 1 (km-pkt, km-, kmpkt)
adj. 1. Closely and firmly united or packed together; dense: compact clusters of flowers.
2. Occupying little space compared with others of its type: a compact camera; a compact car.
3. Brief and to the point; concise: a compact narration.
4. Marked by or having a short solid physique: a wrestler of compact build.

From 2+ years ago:


https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-compact-digital-film-cameras/74723...y-place-2.html

One of the cameras used for that contest:

EXPEDITION REVIEW

Some of the same arguments surfaced then, and though the shot with this camera placed 2nd, to me that was definitely not in the realm of Point and Shoot. However, with the rules as they were, it was allowed.

The very next contest, the rules were changed to try and clarify:

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-compact-digital-film-cameras/77851...-religion.html

Then contest 26 brought other new rules with equally valid points:

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-compact-digital-film-cameras/82099...test-26-a.html

At this point it stabilized with what most seemed to feel was the intent behind the term Point and Shoot: a small camera that may or may not have interchangeable lenses, either film or digital. Then things started to change with contest 36 with what was going to be a one time allowance of medium format. Initially it appears that there would be no problem, but then with subsequent contests, it started getting crazy with specific cameras being listed as allowed or not, expanding into medium format "as long as..." The lists then got longer and longer. Eventually, this thread was started to redefine Point and Shoot (which really was colloquial for a compact camera). Whew!

So, let's have it be settled once and for all and then take it out of the judges hands for changing.

Last edited by jheu02; 12-11-2011 at 08:44 PM.
12-11-2011, 08:36 PM   #161
Pentaxian
unixrevolution's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Waldorf, MD
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 1,844
Original Poster
QuoteOriginally posted by Mike Cash Quote
That still excludes the box Brownie, which is not only a camera my grandmother actually did use, it also happens to be the original and still unsurpassed P&S. Any rule or set of rules which manages to exclude a box Brownie can not be said to have sufficiently captured the essence of P&S. As the thread has shown, this is going to prove an impossible task so long as people get hung up on definitions based on physical characteristics rather than on the spirit of the thing.
I completely agree on this point, Mike. It seems the contest took a turn for the ridiculous when someone used a view camera or similar. Unfortunately this caused a lot of consternation, and not completely unrightly so. However, I set this thread up more out of my own curiosity of what people thought in their heads about point and shoots, more than for what I thought was eligible in the contests. I'm not trying to suck the fun out of it or split hairs unnecessarily.

QuoteOriginally posted by jheu02 Quote
I guess it's excluded due to film size but that wasn't the intent which is why in my last sentence I included the word "reasonably." No one should confuse a 645 or 6x7 Haselblad/Mamiya/Pentax, etc.... with a Brownie. But, how else would you word it to exclude professional medium/large format cameras without someone then challenging the term professional? I suppose you could include an overall waiver for ANY camera if it's more than ____ years old. Call it the "grannie clause".
Umm...Pentax 645, 6x6, and hasselblad are SLRS and excluded on that basis. When I had the contest in my hands, I phrased it as "Scale-focus or focus free medium format cameras only: No Rangefinders, TLRs or SLRs." That includes box/folder cameras without letting Mamiya 7s and Rolleiflexes in.

QuoteOriginally posted by Laurentiu Cristofor Quote
Anton, good points there on what the goals should be.

Here's an idea. Any digital camera with small sensor is allowed by default. Any other camera is allowed as long as people come with a justification for why it's fair to compare its result with that taken by the small sensor cameras. This way there are no restrictions, and we spice the social aspect with interesting justifications. if the justification flies, we add the camera to a list of allowed cameras, so no more justifications are needed in the future. With just 24 participants, how many such cameras can we realistically get? We could also admit shots on an individual basis even if we don't admit the camera in general. Justification could be - "it was shot at infinity and at this size it looks as good as a compact camera shot".
I like this one, actually, quite a bit, since it wouldn't result in a complete ban on film cameras and leaves up to us to include or not include cameras on a case-by-case basis and form a camera whitelist, which is the only way we can have an indisputable list of approved machines. The dispute can be in the voting for each individual camera, but once it's on the list, it's there.

QuoteOriginally posted by kyteflyer Quote
With the angst and carryon that that single action has caused, including this thread, and the continued nonsense in the others, I am really seriously considering not bothering ever again.

"People" did not. it was me and my X100 and I withdrew the shot before being told I must (in fact I was told it was perfectly OK), and I have no issue with that. On the matter of the actual entry, it was taken with the topic in mind and was taken on automatic, whilst looking at the LCD screen on the back. Cant get much more point and shoot than that. And I did NOT enter with the intent of gaining any advantage over others. The only time I have won was with an old shot off my C760. Its not the gear that makes the difference.

Truly, this whole thing has gone too far. Its just ridiculous.
I agree with this, too, and I wish that i'd just never said anything in the first place. Your images, along with many of the images other people submit to the P&S contest, are wonderful and I would personally be extremely sad if you quit. It IS about the images...but I wanted to be able to submit pictures from my old P&S cameras from ye olde times, and that's what started all this.

I am unequivocally ashamed and sorry to have started such a kerfluffle, and I apologize.

QuoteOriginally posted by jheu02 Quote
IIRC, there were also some excellent film shots entered earlier than your x100, but they were with medium format. I don't recall whether fixed lens or not, but certainly out of the realm of what I always thought was the spirit of a point and shoot contest. The reason I'm looking for more specifics on the rules is for the sake of the judges, as like Anton, I feel they shouldn't be put in the spot of deciding whether a camera qualifies. I also agree, Mike, that it's not the gear, it's the photographer, except when you figure that there are many very fine photogs here. So we are back at square one. It seems in everybody's best interest to get the spirit of the contest (fun, inclusiveness, etc) back into it by removing the doubt about gear. If it's decided that it should go back to anything but SLR, so be it. Just call it that so when someone wants to enter, but doesn't read the rules, it will still be clear what class of camera is excluded. At least then whoever decides to enter will know what to expect, and the judge won't be put in a bad position.
I submitted the medium format pictures in the "Night Shots" competition. They were taken with a Kodak Folding Autographic Brownie No. 2:



No. 2 Folding Autographic Brownie

It has two focus adjustments ("near" and "far"), two shutter speeds, and f/8 to f/32. I don't see how that's NOT a point and shoot. See, Medium Format doesn't necessarily mean professional gear. It can mean a Holga, an old Box camera, a folder, or any number of cameras that, despite the fact that MF is a huge frame in today's world, were point and shoots in their day.

I really don't know what was wrong with the rules introduced in Contest #42, to be honest. I thought I did a damn fine job of capturing the essence of what the P&S contest was, and was not, about. But I call for a return to fun and more open standards rather than less. Anything-but-an-SLR is fine with me!
12-11-2011, 09:22 PM   #162
Pentaxian
unixrevolution's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Waldorf, MD
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 1,844
Original Poster
QuoteOriginally posted by Mike Cash Quote
Who argued both for the Brownie and against the Q?
I argued for the Brownie, and though not specifically against the Q as I feel it should get a pass for some reason, I did think the exclusion of anything with interchangeable lenses a good idea.
12-11-2011, 09:33 PM   #163
Veteran Member
Mike Cash's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Japan
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 6,952
Oh, okay; I just didn't want anyone thinking it was me.
12-11-2011, 09:58 PM   #164
Pentaxian
ivoire's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: chicago burbs
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 3,356
QuoteOriginally posted by unixrevolution Quote
I argued for the Brownie, and though not specifically against the Q as I feel it should get a pass for some reason, I did think the exclusion of anything with interchangeable lenses a good idea.
Both the Brownie and Q are acceptable to me. Brownie is definitely a film point and shoot and the Q with a 1/2.3 sensor and the kit lens fits the small sensor arena. I'm not sure why there is a no interchangeable lens rule when a small sensor digital that zooms beyond 300mm is acceptable. The one thing i did notice in the last few competitions that was omitted from the rules was "have fun". Oddly, the competition reads "Point and shoot competition" NOT "point and shoot CAMERA competition". Perhaps the main rule should be Auto, Program or Standard mode ONLY ie no manual, no aperture priority, no shutter priority, etc.
12-12-2011, 12:50 AM   #165
Veteran Member
RioRico's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Limbo, California
Posts: 11,264
The problem with baroque rules with arbitrary exceptions is that more exceptions can always be called for. There will always be borderline cases and political judgments. And much modern gear can be used as a P&S -- does that make a Kr+kit.lens in Green mode a P&S? I don't think so. That's why I proposed P&S-spirit rules: No SLRs, no ILCs, nothing over 1kg. Simple rules. Once we start adding exceptions, there's no end.

So my half-frame RF is out because its little lenses are changeable, while my 9x14cm folder is in because the lens is fixed and it weighs under a kilo. (If only I had some 9x14mm film...) And Q and P110 are out (ILCs) while X100 and Rolliecord are in (fixed lens). So be it. No, frame size isn't the determinant, isn't what makes a P&S what it is.
Reply

Bookmarks
  • Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook
  • Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter
  • Submit Thread to Digg Digg
Tags - Make this thread easier to find by adding keywords to it!
camera, digital camera, pentax, pentax cameras, people, point and shoot, sensor, size
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Point & Shoot Contest #34 "A Helping Hand" ivoire Pentax Compact Cameras 29 10-13-2010 07:41 AM
Point and Shoot Contest #27: "Seasons" kyteflyer Pentax Compact Cameras 16 04-20-2010 08:07 PM
Point & Shoot Contest #25 - "Signs of religion" Bart Pentax Compact Cameras 20 12-03-2009 01:55 AM
Winners: Point & Shoot Contest #24 - "The Best View From My Place" rustynail925 Pentax Compact Cameras 7 10-26-2009 12:24 PM
Point & Shoot Contest #19 "Show off your corner of the world!" Bart Pentax Compact Cameras 24 06-03-2009 05:23 AM



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:39 AM. | See also: NikonForums.com, part of our network of photo forums!
  • Red (Default)
  • Green
  • Gray
  • Dark
  • Dark Yellow
  • Dark Blue
  • Old Red
  • Old Green
  • Old Gray
  • Dial-Up Style
Hello! It's great to see you back on the forum! Have you considered joining the community?
register
Creating a FREE ACCOUNT takes under a minute, removes ads, and lets you post! [Dismiss]
Top