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12-15-2011, 09:55 PM   #181
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QuoteOriginally posted by unixrevolution Quote
And Laurentiu, what's this "No manual focus" business?
The entire point of P&S cameras is that you can just point and shoot. A camera that is MF only is a P&F&S camera, not just a P&S camera.

We can't extend categories too much or they become meaningless.

QuoteOriginally posted by jheu02 Quote
I also have a problem with no manual focus. Since the "flow" of our modern PnS photo taking goes something like this:

See scene, Point Camera at Scene, Zoom if Needed, Let the Auto Focus work, Perhaps Recompose, then Take Photo
Ah, but that's how an advanced user uses a P&S camera - it doesn't reflect the method of the target market.

The point is not that you can use advanced techniques like focus and reframe with a P&S, but that a MF camera doesn't allow you to simply shoot with no technique - you cannot just point it at a whiteboard and take an image of what's on it, for example.

QuoteOriginally posted by unixrevolution Quote
That'd disqualify a bunch of cameras from before the Autofocus era, like all 35mm scale-focus and RF cameras,<snip>
I have no problem with that - they aren't P&S cameras. Are you now going to tell me that a rangefinder is a P&S but an SLR is not?

QuoteOriginally posted by unixrevolution Quote
and nearly every Zone-focus and scale-focus brownie and folder.
I'm not sure what zone-focus/scale-focus is supposed to mean exactly. If you're referring to cameras like Holgas that had three preset focusing positions, I wouldn't call them manual focus cameras, as you don't have much freedom with focusing anyway. I'd be fine to bundle that category into P&S as they are the historical precursor of P&S cameras.

I'm not against film P&S. If you have a film Optio, that would qualify perfectly for a P&S. But not a Leica M3.

12-16-2011, 05:35 AM   #182
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QuoteOriginally posted by Laurentiu Cristofor Quote
"The entire point of P&S cameras is that you can just point and shoot. A camera that is MF only is a P&F&S camera, not just a P&S camera."

"Ah, but that's how an advanced user uses a P&S camera - it doesn't reflect the method of the target market."

"I have no problem with that - they aren't P&S cameras. Are you now going to tell me that a rangefinder is a P&S but an SLR is not?"

"I'm not sure what zone-focus/scale-focus is supposed to mean exactly. If you're referring to cameras like Holgas that had three preset focusing positions, I wouldn't call them manual focus cameras, as you don't have much freedom with focusing anyway. I'd be fine to bundle that category into P&S as they are the historical precursor of P&S cameras."

"I'm not against film P&S. If you have a film Optio, that would qualify perfectly for a P&S. But not a Leica M3."
Exactly why we need to get completely away from "Point & Shoot".
ANY camera with a fully automatic setting IS A POINT & SHOOT. My DSLR is a Point & Shoot in full auto mode.

The contest we have going for non-DSLR cameras is a COMPACT camera contest.

Until that fact penetrates there is NEVER going to be any consensus.

I am 100% behind the suggestions of jheu02 (December 13) and Unixrevolution (December 14). Basically no (D)SLRs, no Large Format and no cameras over 1KG. Simple and effective, plus fits the needs of a fun contest which doesn't get too fixated on IQ anyway.
12-16-2011, 12:16 PM   #183
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QuoteOriginally posted by Laurentiu Cristofor Quote
The entire point of P&S cameras is that you can just point and shoot. A camera that is MF only is a P&F&S camera, not just a P&S camera.

We can't extend categories too much or they become meaningless.
And if we restrict it TOO much, no one will want to participate, and a fun contest will die.

QuoteOriginally posted by Laurentiu Cristofor Quote
Ah, but that's how an advanced user uses a P&S camera - it doesn't reflect the method of the target market.

The point is not that you can use advanced techniques like focus and reframe with a P&S, but that a MF camera doesn't allow you to simply shoot with no technique - you cannot just point it at a whiteboard and take an image of what's on it, for example.
.
I didn't know that manually focusing was an advanced technique. Do you propose to disqualify other advanced techniques for the contest also?

We are the target market for the purposes of THIS contest. Just because we may use a PnS from time to time (or maybe even primarily) doesn't mean we ignore photographic principles relating to light, composition, subject matter, etc. To make things really fair, you'd need to find a way to disable the AF, advanced metering, and Zoom capabilities of modern PnS cameras to take away the unfair advantage they'd have over a film Optio with fixed-focus, fixed focal-length lens.

Here's a potential new title for the contest:

"The Contest Formerly Named Point and Shoot" Now we need someone to come up with the universal symbol for a compact camera.
12-16-2011, 03:59 PM   #184
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QuoteOriginally posted by Anton Magus Quote
The contest we have going for non-DSLR cameras is a COMPACT camera contest.
Then we should just name it that way.

QuoteOriginally posted by jheu02 Quote
I didn't know that manually focusing was an advanced technique.
Well, it used to be the only focusing technique until three decades ago and in those days photography was for the passionate and dedicated. Then autofocus changed everything and with the addition of electronics, it enabled people to use a camera without paying much attention to technical aspects. Theirs was not wonder about aperture, focus, and exposure, theirs was just to point and shoot. That was the birth of P&S. Manually focusing thus became an advanced technique, one that most users don't even think exists, much less think about practicing it.

QuoteOriginally posted by jheu02 Quote
Do you propose to disqualify other advanced techniques for the contest also?
Correction: I didn't disqualify the technique - I disqualified the absence of automatic shooting modes that can permit a P&S experience (if we insist to keep calling the contest "a P&S contest"). The restrictions of the contest are not about technique, but about equipment.

QuoteOriginally posted by jheu02 Quote
We are the target market for the purposes of THIS contest.
That is fine, but we don't need to invent a new language and new terminology just for a contest. If we want to allow cameras that are not P&S, let's just stop calling the contest a P&S contest.

12-16-2011, 04:50 PM   #185
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The person I think of who probably had the most to do with my interest in our hobby was my sainted grandmother with her Instamatic and flash cubes. I don't think anyone would consider her passionate or dedicated, but she was the poster child for who George Eastman had in mind when he opened up photography to the masses. Ardent picture taking was not the sole provence of the passionate and dedicated.

Notice I changed terms there?

P&S is about "picture taking". The trouble here stems from people who want to make it about "photography".

This is about a state of mind and each person displaying the integrity to police themselves on their submissions based on whether they were taking a picture or engaging in photography. Approaching this as a gear-based problem is to have already missed the point and jumped the rails before you even get started.
12-16-2011, 07:04 PM   #186
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Theres no end to this debate which is why i like the "Winner will set up and judge next contest" rule.
12-16-2011, 09:12 PM   #187
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mike Cash Quote
The person I think of who probably had the most to do with my interest in our hobby was my sainted grandmother with her Instamatic and flash cubes. I don't think anyone would consider her passionate or dedicated
I would So the rest of your argument falls apart

Maybe you're interpreting "passionate and dedicated" in a very strong way. I just meant somebody that wanted to take photos and was willing to buy a camera in an era in which they weren't inexpensive, they weren't that easy to use, and they didn't provide instant gratification either.
12-16-2011, 10:00 PM - 1 Like   #188
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QuoteOriginally posted by Laurentiu Cristofor Quote
I would So the rest of your argument falls apart

Maybe you're interpreting "passionate and dedicated" in a very strong way. I just meant somebody that wanted to take photos and was willing to buy a camera in an era in which they weren't inexpensive, they weren't that easy to use, and they didn't provide instant gratification either.
Ever since the first Brownie was introduced there has always been a very low-priced camera available for non-enthusiasts to easily take snapshots. My own Brownie C sold brand-new for $1.25 circa 1930. Still works like the day it was made, and gave $10 for it. My grandmother always had whatever the then-current bottom-of-the-line camera was and used it to take thoroughly uninteresting and uninspiring pictures of the family. If you had said "photography" to her you probably would have had to explain you were talking about taking pictures. She wouldn't have known an f-stop from a bus stop. Outdoor pictures stood a better than even chance of featuring her shadow in the foreground.

Given a modern digital P&S she would have had a ball, but her pictures would still have been crappy pictures of the family. She knew how to enjoy picture taking. She had fun capturing moments and until I was in high school I thought all non-studio cameras were Instamatics and all film came in 126 drop-in plastic cartridges. That was all I had ever seen, except for even crappier 110 P&S cameras, when those came along. You can't imagine how intrigued I was to see my first 35mm film and marvel over film you had to rewind. Nor my shock when I learned it wasn't some new invention, but had been around for decades. If anybody in my hometown had a 35mm camera of any type whatsoever, I never saw it. I don't think I ever saw or held an SLR until I got my own, an AE-1, for a graduation present.

If I take a picture in the spirit of the way my grandmother took them, regardless of the camera and regardless of how much more appealing the photo may be over what she would have cranked out, then I consider it a P&S picture. If its a shot where I went at it trying to get something exceeding that, then I don't. So I could have two adjacent shots on the same roll of film and consider one alright to submit to a contest and the other one not alright....depending on my frame of mind when I took them, not on the gear. As I have said, the problem arose when we went from all participants who considered the contests picture-sharing chances to having some participants who just couldn't be satisfied with having a little meaningless fun and had to go turn them into Genuwine Photography Weenie-Wagging Contests.

This isn't a gear problem; it's an attitude issue.

12-16-2011, 11:23 PM   #189
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mike Cash Quote
... her Instamatic and flash cubes.
Hey, I still have mine! No flash cubes and no dropin cassette of film... but I do have shots from those days, and maybe one day will scan them and enter the odd one in a competition (I guess I am as old as your gran)
12-16-2011, 11:51 PM   #190
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Not unless you were born in 1912....
12-16-2011, 11:55 PM   #191
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mike Cash Quote
If I take a picture in the spirit of the way my grandmother took them, regardless of the camera and regardless of how much more appealing the photo may be over what she would have cranked out, then I consider it a P&S picture. If its a shot where I went at it trying to get something exceeding that, then I don't. So I could have two adjacent shots on the same roll of film and consider one alright to submit to a contest and the other one not alright....depending on my frame of mind when I took them, not on the gear.
Nice try Mike, but no matter what your frame of mind was when you lifted your 645D to your eye, I don't think the resulting "picture" will ever be acceptable in these contests....
12-17-2011, 12:30 AM   #192
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Neither do I. It's an SLR and would have been out even under the old simple rules.
12-17-2011, 01:20 AM   #193
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mike Cash Quote
Not unless you were born in 1912....
LOL OK, you win. Not *quite* as old as your gran.
12-17-2011, 11:05 AM   #194
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QuoteOriginally posted by kyteflyer Quote
LOL OK, you win. Not *quite* as old as your gran.
A little photo I took in her honor:





Konica C35 Flashmatic
DNP Centuria 200

12-17-2011, 12:31 PM   #195
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mike Cash Quote
Ever since the first Brownie was introduced there has always been a very low-priced camera available for non-enthusiasts to easily take snapshots. My own Brownie C sold brand-new for $1.25 circa 1930. Still works like the day it was made, and gave $10 for it. My grandmother always had whatever the then-current bottom-of-the-line camera was and used it to take thoroughly uninteresting and uninspiring pictures of the family.
Ok, but how many grandmothers were like yours? How typical is this experience? Was this typical outside your country, do you think?

It may well be that P&S shooting took off earlier in US and then my description of dedication and passion is off - it was based on my experience where even though simple P&S cameras existed, I still didn't see them used often and most people either had no camera at all or had a rangefinder/slr type of camera that required knowing a bit about aperture, iso, etc.
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