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12-23-2011, 05:46 AM   #211
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QuoteOriginally posted by Anton Magus Quote
Is that now acceptable to everyone?
Almost. I would simplify the second rule to: No Interchangeable lens cameras. An ILC is necessarily more sophisticated than a similar fixed-lens camera. IMHO no ILC can be a P&S. Wow, is that compressed enough?

12-23-2011, 06:28 AM   #212
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"Compact Camera" Contest Rules"

No Large Format or camera typically requiring a tripod to use.
No Interchangeable lens cameras (i.e. no INTERCHANGEABLE LENS 35mm (D)SLR, MF, micro 4/3 etc)
No camera weighing over 1kg
Contest winner agrees to use these rules, selects theme and judges next competition
12-23-2011, 07:03 AM   #213
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I'm fine with it as I don't intend to purchase one, but realize that you have just excluded two Pentax systems, the Auto 110 and the Q.
12-23-2011, 07:33 AM   #214
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QuoteOriginally posted by jheu02 Quote
but realize that you have just excluded two Pentax systems, the Auto 110 and the Q.
Yes I do. I had no problem with the PnS competition rules previously, but by this thread it is obvious that some did. Hopefully a "simplified, agreed upon set of rules" will satisfy all parties and increase participation. I had allowed the Q in a previous competition as this IS a Pentax forum (would have allowed the Auto 110 also for the same reason..... they are 'Pentax and compact').

12-23-2011, 10:42 AM   #215
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In time, this won't matter:

Death of the point-and-shoot? Smartphone cameras now take 27 per cent of photos | Mail Online

QuoteQuote:
Death of the point-and-shoot camera? Smartphone cameras now take 27 per cent of pictures

Sales of compact cameras drop by 17 per cent
Smartphones increase from 17 per cent to 27 per cent of photos in one year
Larger-lensed SLR cameras up by 12 per cent
12-23-2011, 12:49 PM   #216
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QuoteOriginally posted by RioRico Quote
Almost. I would simplify the second rule to: No Interchangeable lens cameras. An ILC is necessarily more sophisticated than a similar fixed-lens camera. IMHO no ILC can be a P&S. Wow, is that compressed enough?
This rule is unnecessary. Why exclude the few systems with small sensors that will pass through these rules? There is already a wide range of sophistication allowed - do we really think that changing lenses provides an amazing advantage?
12-23-2011, 03:48 PM   #217
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QuoteOriginally posted by RoxnDox Quote
Geez, you guys have blasted 200+ posts at each other - some of them nice discussions, but many of them just plain old arguments - about how to define a fuzzy, nebulous, ever-evolving category of cameras. While it's kinda interesting to see the arguments, it seems to me like y'all are going to be as successful at defining this as the old-timers arguing about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin!

Jim
That very point is among those which have already been brought up in the thread, so it isn't as though your contribution has added anything new or done anything to advance the discussion either.
12-23-2011, 04:52 PM   #218
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QuoteOriginally posted by Laurentiu Cristofor Quote
This rule is unnecessary. Why exclude the few systems with small sensors that will pass through these rules? There is already a wide range of sophistication allowed - do we really think that changing lenses provides an amazing advantage?
If the competition is open to ILCs like Pentax Q, Micro 4/3 and similar systems it should stimulate more interest and they are "compact cameras". I don't really see any "unfair" advantage when some of the typical pocketable automatic digital cameras from sony, panasonic, nikon etc have 300mm plus zooms. As far as sophistication goes, the Sony Sony Cyber-shot DSC-HX9V has more features than many DSLRs.

Simplified?
"Compact Camera" Contest Rules"

No cameras with sensors larger than Micro 43
No Large Format or camera typically requiring a tripod to use.
No 35mm (D)SLRs
No camera weighing over 1kg
Contest winner agrees to use these rules, selects theme and judges next competition


Last edited by ivoire; 12-23-2011 at 05:23 PM.
12-23-2011, 05:21 PM   #219
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QuoteOriginally posted by ivoire Quote
If the competition is open to ILCs like Pentax Q, Micro 4/3 and similar systems it should stimulate more interest and they are "compact cameras". I don't really see any "unfair" advantage when some of the typical pocketable automatic digital cameras from sony, panasonic, nikon etc have 300mm plus zooms. As far as sophistication goes, the Sony Sony Cyber-shot DSC-HX9V has more features than many DSLRs.
I would draw the line at CX sensors. MFT cameras are as good as anything else. Q and 1 are a different story.
12-24-2011, 12:14 AM   #220
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This may have taken 200+ posts back and forth but it has been interesting to learn other peoples views and thoughts. To me it has been a worthwhile exercise that goes a long way to help everyone understand what compact cameras are all about.

I keep coming back to one core factor that has been around far longer than this discussion thread. It seems to be an undisputed fact that the bigger the sensor (whether film or digital) the better the resulting image quality, other factors being equal. Image quality is however not the only factor in judging what is (or is not) a good photograph. The subject matter and how it is presented - the composition - is far more important, as long as the image quality is adequate. So, a poorly composed subject will seldom be rated as a great photograph, no matter how perfect the image quality may be. Similarly a great composition with terrible image quality will also fail. To get a good photograph requires a combination of great composition together with a level of image quality suitable for the intended purpose. Obviously the image quality needs are very different if you want a printed poster size enlargement or a 1024 x 768 pixel image on a computer screen.

It seems that we all agree that the composition is mainly determined by the photographer with perhaps a little help from the camera, while the image quality is mainly determined by the camera with a little help from the photographer.

So, in these Compact Camera Contests, we want to eliminate cameras which produce an image of such high quality that they tend to over-shadow the composition. The reason being that we want to rate the composition to determine the winners, and not the image quality. The winner should be the person who submits the best composition with a subject that depicts the theme, irrespective of image quality as long as it is adequate and does not detract from the overall effect of the photograph.

Considering almost everything which has been posted, there is consensus that cameras with interchangeable lenses should be restricted to those with a specific maximum sensor size. Some have suggested APS-C, some M4/3 and some CX as the maximum for an interchangeable lens camera. While having the ability to change lenses is not in itself (IMO) a huge advantage over a 26 - 300+ mm zoom lens, the bigger sensors coupled with high quality, fast lenses allows a degree of control over depth of field way beyond anything a camera with a 1/2.3 sensor and a tiny 5x zoom lens can hope to ever achieve. For this reason I personally prefer a rule that eliminates cameras with interchangeable lenses and sensors larger than CX size. This allows the Nikon 1 and the Pentax Q but eliminates the Olympus and other M4/3 systems. Obviously it also rules out (D)SLRs.

Film camera users (and large sensor digital camera users) should be welcome as long as their cameras have fixed lenses. I am not at all twitchy about range finders and whatever focus systems these cameras may have because they don't give the photographer a clear view of depth of field - you have to work that out for yourself.

Obviously large format cameras are outside the scope of a compact camera contest.

I would happily support Ivoire's last set of rules with the single amendment of CX sized sensors instead of M4/3
QuoteOriginally posted by ivoire:
"Compact Camera" Contest Rules"

No cameras with sensors larger than CX
No Large Format or camera typically requiring a tripod to use.
No 35mm (D)SLRs
No camera weighing over 1kg
Contest winner agrees to use these rules, selects theme and judges next competition
May I suggest that these rules be applied and tried for the January contest so we can see if they are popular and if any entrant has a problem with them?
12-24-2011, 05:09 AM   #221
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I'm not all that tech-savvy, as I really don't make any effort to keep up with all the details about various sensors. So if somebody could tell me if my new Fujifilm X10 fits the proposed guidelines or not, I would really appreciate it.
12-24-2011, 05:50 AM   #222
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mike Cash Quote
I'm not all that tech-savvy, as I really don't make any effort to keep up with all the details about various sensors. So if somebody could tell me if my new Fujifilm X10 fits the proposed guidelines or not, I would really appreciate it.
Yes, 2/3" sensors are allowed in current contest and here, unless there's
another change. The more images I see from the X10 makes me want to
get one, too.
12-24-2011, 07:20 AM   #223
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QuoteOriginally posted by Anton Magus Quote
"Compact Camera" Contest Rules"

No cameras with sensors larger than CX
No Large Format or camera typically requiring a tripod to use.
No 35mm (D)SLRs
No camera weighing over 1kg
QuoteOriginally posted by Anton Magus Quote
Compact
With the January competition approaching some type of 'standard' should be set to avoid a repeat of the discussion. As with all things in life, evolution continues. These guidelines work for me.

QuoteOriginally posted by chubasco Quote
Yes, 2/3" sensors are allowed in current contest and here, unless there's
another change. The more images I see from the X10 makes me want to
get one, too.
It is a great camera and I was considering one even tho I had recently picked up a micro 43 system. I suspect we will see X10 images in the next competition.

I believe the Nikon CX sensor is 1" and this would be the largest allowed under the proposed rules. So far the consensus appears to equal:

The Rules

1. Have Fun!

2. Cameras
No cameras with sensors larger than 1"
No Large Format or camera typically requiring a tripod to use.
No 35mm (D)SLRs
No camera weighing over 1kg

3. Entries will close on ___________

4. Maximum image dimensions are 1024x768 pixels.

5. List camera brand, model with entry for all to see.

6. THEME: ________________

7. Max of 3 photographs per person.

8. Post processing is fine.

9. Contest winner agrees to use these rules, selects theme, sets closing date and judges next competition

Comments?

Last edited by ivoire; 12-24-2011 at 07:49 AM.
12-24-2011, 07:44 AM   #224
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The rules in Ivoire's post above sound OK to me, except drop the CX term. You wouldn't have an SLR competition where only DX and FX camera sizes were allowed. CX only means something in Nikon land, and is a very new term. The 1" descriptor is clear and has been established for decades.
12-24-2011, 03:46 PM   #225
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QuoteOriginally posted by Anton Magus Quote
...
I would happily support Ivoire's last set of rules with the single amendment of CX sized sensors instead of M4/3


May I suggest that these rules be applied and tried for the January contest so we can see if they are popular and if any entrant has a problem with them?
Nice summation, Anton, and I am inclined to agree with you on the issue of sensor. Nothing larger than 1"
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