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10-06-2011, 12:02 AM   #61
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QuoteOriginally posted by audiobomber Quote
It's odd that the chart shows both 1 point for "raw format selectable", and 0 points for "raw format selectable". It would make sense for the blue column (1 point) to be allocated for "lossless format selectable, e.g. TIFF), and leave the yellow column as raw format selectable.
The columns don't matter. Raw format is in yellow cells and scores 0. Only cells with a blue background score 1. Only cells with a green background score 2.

Maybe there needs to be 3 options here.

Most cameras that save the image as a JPEG also carry out some processing like noise reduction and/or sharpening prior to saving the image. What the camera actually does is generally not within the control of the user, although they may know that for certain settings, the camera will perform certain processing functions on the image. Cameras that do this should score 2 points.

My understanding is that raw files are saved unprocessed and uncompressed, with absolutely no loss of any image data. It is then fully within the control of the user (and whatever software they use) to post process the image for noise reduction, sharpening, or whatever. Cameras that save raw files giving the user these advantages should score 0 points.

Maybe there should be a score of 1 point for cameras which save in any format except raw AND allow the user some control over whether noise reduction (= smooth out all the fine details) is applied or not.

10-06-2011, 01:13 AM   #62
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Perhaps I'm being very thick here and completely miss the point but...

...it sounds as though the question being asked in this thread is not what qualifies as a PS but, rather, how do we select for the least capable compact cameras?

It completely escapes me why, all else being equal, the mere ability to shot or not shot in RAW should be a factor one way or the other. It seems to me to be no more relevant than the color of the camera.

Am I missing something?

Last edited by wildman; 10-06-2011 at 01:34 AM.
10-06-2011, 01:57 AM   #63
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QuoteOriginally posted by wildman Quote
It completely escapes me why, all else being equal, the mere ability to shot or not shot in RAW should be a factor one way or the other. It seems to me to be no more relevant than the color of the camera.

Am I missing something?
And that's a good point. Big picture: We're hashing-over ideas of how to distinguish between relatively 'simple' and 'advanced' cameras. Little picture: Maybe RAW capability is one of those distinguishing marks. I'd like to say that historically, 'simple' digicams didn't provide RAWs, but performed development in-camera with little user control.

But yeah, is that *really* a divide? I recently got a nearly-decade-old 5mpx P&S at a yard sale for US$10, a good-condition Olympus C-5050. It's still output formats are JPG, TIF, and RAW. Ancient technology for an 'advanced' P&S -- is it really equivalent to a Q or Kr just because it slowly saves RAW files?

Maybe file formats aren't such a good indicator after all.
10-06-2011, 04:03 AM   #64
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QuoteOriginally posted by RioRico Quote
We're hashing-over ideas of how to distinguish between relatively 'simple' and 'advanced' cameras.
Aha!
This is what I don't get I guess
It seems that everyone else implicitly understands the desirability and purpose of making this distinction in the first place and I do not.

I'm not just being contrary or argumentative I really don't understand.

Could someone explicitly state why making this distinction is necessary and/or useful? To what end and purpose?

10-06-2011, 05:00 AM   #65
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QuoteOriginally posted by wildman Quote
It completely escapes me why, all else being equal, the mere ability to shot or not shot in RAW should be a factor one way or another
Because the category is point & shoot, not point, shoot & process.

The chart awards points for ways in which the camera is limited. Raw allows more control over the final photo, therefore is less limiting than having only jpegs for processing. All the categories have the same intent, the more limiting the body or controls, the more points awarded.
10-06-2011, 05:26 AM   #66
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QuoteOriginally posted by Anton Magus Quote
The columns don't matter.
I see that now, but maybe they should matter. The columns for sensor size differentiation for example could be:
Up to 2/3", 2 points
Larger than 2/3" but smaller that 4/3, 1 point
4/3 and larger, 0

For processing:
jpeg only, 2 points
non-lossy storage other than raw (e.g. TIFF), 1 point
raw, 0

For exposure:
No control, fully automatic, 2 points
Scene Modes, Exposure Compensation and/or ISO selection, 1 point
Av, Tv or M modes, 0
10-06-2011, 07:02 AM   #67
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QuoteOriginally posted by audiobomber Quote
All the categories have the same intent, the more limiting the body or controls, the more points awarded.
OK finally.

You are "handicapping" -

- "A contest in which certain disadvantages or advantages are placed upon competitors to equalize their chances of winning."
10-06-2011, 07:26 AM   #68
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QuoteOriginally posted by wildman Quote
OK finally.

You are "handicapping" -

- "A contest in which certain disadvantages or advantages are placed upon competitors to equalize their chances of winning."
Yes, except that the intent is also to exclude some camera types from the contest if they score below a particular threshold.

10-06-2011, 10:43 AM   #69
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QuoteOriginally posted by audiobomber Quote
Because the category is point & shoot, not point, shoot & process.
The purist variant would then be: straight-from-the-shutter-snap photos only, no human-intervention PP at all, neither in-camera nor via computer. Just like dropping a roll of film off a Wally's and hoping the results don't suck too much.
10-06-2011, 12:12 PM   #70
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QuoteOriginally posted by wildman Quote
...it sounds as though the question being asked in this thread is not what qualifies as a PS but, rather, how do we select for the least capable compact cameras?
From a context perspective, you might want to provide similar challenge. From a market perspective, I think cameras like S95, G12, TL500, XZ10, etc are really in a class of their own and bundling them together with all other P&S fails to recognize that. That being said, bundling them all together can also be fine, but at some point there were arguments that X100 is also a P&S, so somewhere a line needs to be drawn - where do you want to draw it?
10-06-2011, 12:24 PM   #71
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QuoteOriginally posted by Laurentiu Cristofor Quote
That being said, bundling them all together can also be fine, but at some point there were arguments that X100 is also a P&S, so somewhere a line needs to be drawn - where do you want to draw it?
That's where the nifty chart comes in. Personally, I would draw the line at a 7 point minimum. YMMV.


PS According to the chart, the X100 scores 3 points.
10-06-2011, 12:30 PM   #72
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QuoteOriginally posted by RioRico Quote
The purist variant would then be: straight-from-the-shutter-snap photos only, no human-intervention PP at all, neither in-camera nor via computer. Just like dropping a roll of film off a Wally's and hoping the results don't suck too much.
I don't think excluding everything but absolutely pure p&s is the intent.
10-06-2011, 03:38 PM   #73
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QuoteOriginally posted by Laurentiu Cristofor Quote
somewhere a line needs to be drawn - where do you want to draw it?
For me the only absolute line I can think of is size and weight. If a PS is not handy what's the point?
Beyond that anything is negotiable.

When I was looking for a PS I was willing to pay what was necessary to get what I wanted.
The G12 was, for instance, clearly too large while the S95 was about right.

Last edited by wildman; 10-06-2011 at 03:49 PM.
10-06-2011, 07:02 PM   #74
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The main difference between the S95 and the G12 to me is the hot shoe.

Flash could be another line in the chart:

In-body flash, 2 points
Pop-up flash, 1 point
External flash/hot shoe, 0
10-07-2011, 01:07 AM   #75
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QuoteOriginally posted by audiobomber Quote
That's where the nifty chart comes in. Personally, I would draw the line at a 7 point minimum. YMMV.
The idea is to allow all of the basic compact cameras, as well as cameras with SOME sophisticated features, but not cameras with ALL the sophisticated features. Drawing the line at 5 or 6 or 7 points just depends on how much sophistication you want to allow. Of course there are some combinations where you are unlikely to find a camera that fits. Usually as the camera becomes more sophisticated in one area, it simultaneously also becomes more sophisticated in other areas. For example, interchangeable lenses usually also have manual focus directly on the lens as well as the ability to set the aperture on the lens so, practically, it is impossible for any interchangeable lens camera to score higher than 5 points.


QuoteOriginally posted by wildman Quote
For me the only absolute line I can think of is size and weight. If a PS is not handy what's the point? Beyond that anything is negotiable. When I was looking for a PS I was willing to pay what was necessary to get what I wanted. The G12 was, for instance, clearly too large while the S95 was about right.
I took a trip to the UK in April. Several members of the party were quite happy to schlep bags with a DSLR and two or more lenses inside. One even had an accessory flash and spare batteries. In contrast I have a lightweight jacket with a big pocket which can comfortably take a Pentax X90. It weighs in at under a pound and I had no problems taking it everywhere. To some people the X90 is way too big/awkward to carry and they want something that fits in a shirt pocket. The point is that you choose and use what suits you best. To some, the way the camera feels in your hands is more important than the way it feels in your pocket.

By my scoring, the S95 would get 6 points which is under the threshold of 7 recommended by audiobomber. Bummer!
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