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10-07-2011, 01:11 AM   #76
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Perhaps we should add another line to the table...

Canon or Nikon 0 points

Other makes of camera 1 point

Pentax cameras 2 points


10-07-2011, 02:01 AM   #77
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QuoteOriginally posted by Anton Magus Quote
The point is that you choose and use what suits you best.
I think when it comes to a PS and size the best word I can think of that describes what I want in a PS is "transparency".

Case in point:
I recently went as an observer to a case being argued in court. No picture taking nor cameras were allowed in the court. I was allowed by the bailiffs immediate entry because I was not carrying a camera and stated I had no intention of taking pictures.

Anyway it was not until I had left the court and was driving home that I realized that I had been carrying the S95 all along in my shirt pocket. I had forgotten that I was carrying it - it had become, physically, completely "transparent".

With something the size and weight of S95 there is really no decision needed whither to take it or not any more than whither to carry my wallet or not.

This kind of physical transparency is, for me, the essential raison d'Ítre for a PS and all else is secondary. Speaking of secondary considerations probably the single most important one was the ability to shot in RAW and after that low light ability.

But as you say at the end of the day you pay your money and make your choice.

Last edited by wildman; 10-07-2011 at 02:39 AM.
10-07-2011, 02:46 AM   #78
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QuoteOriginally posted by Anton Magus Quote
By my scoring, the S95 would get 6 points which is under the threshold of 7 recommended by audiobomber. Bummer!
I can't compete because my camera is not mediocre enough?
How ironic.

Last edited by wildman; 10-07-2011 at 03:47 AM.
10-07-2011, 04:36 AM   #79
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QuoteOriginally posted by Anton Magus Quote
By my scoring, the S95 would get 6 points which is under the threshold of 7 recommended by audiobomber. Bummer!
Sorry, I was scoring incorrectly. I thought the center column scored one point, therefore my threshold of 7 is wrong. The S95 is a point & shoot camera IMO. The chart is a great start but could be modified to further distinguish between mirrorless camera capabilities as previously mentioned; file storage, flash configuration, exposure control, sensor size.

10-07-2011, 11:44 AM   #80
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QuoteOriginally posted by Anton Magus Quote
To see if your camera is eligible for the point-and-shoot competitions, check off its features against the entries in the block below.

The sensor crop factor as well as sensor size are included as there could otherwise be some confusion arising from the way that some
camera manufacturers state sensor sizes in mm or inches, or in "types".

Cameras that have ONLY the LCD screen for composing photographs would still score 2 points.



Each green block scores 2 points, each blue block scores 1 point and yellow block score 0

By my reckoning almost all basic compact cameras score around 10 points, while "bridge" or super-zooms score around 7 points.
The Pentax Q (as far as I can work out) scores 5 points and so does the Fuji X100.
Rangefinder type film cameras score at least 5 points while folding, box and holga-types with fixed focal length lenses score more.
Cameras like the Sony NEX range, and the Samsung equivalent score maybe a 2 while DSLR's score 0

So, you establish a cut-off of 5 (or 6 or 7) points. If your camera scores the cut-off value or more, your entry is acceptable,
otherwise it is not. Its easy to understand and allows for a wide range of different types of cameras, but still keeps the playing
field relatively even for everyone.

The judge could even insist that every entry also includes the camera score and use that as a factor in the judging if they wanted.

Maybe someone would like to suggest an improvement to this idea?
I like this idea, though I approach the P&S contest from a decidedly vintage-camera angle, so let me see if I can clear up some things.

I have two suggestions: RE: Focusing. You should also award 2 points for manual focus without a focus-finding mechanism, IE scale focus cameras where you estimate the distance with your eye and dial that in on the lens. Fixed Focus and Auto-focus Only would be on the 2-point chit too. 1 point would be switchable AF/MF and Non-TTL mechanical focusing aids such as TLRs and Rangefinders. SLRs (and view cameras for what that's worth) would be 0.

Second suggestion, concerning Exposure: Where do fully-manual, unmetered cameras fall? If it has fully manual shutter speed in seconds and aperture in F/numbers, but no meter, is that considered more point and shoot because you have to guess, or more "professional" because you have complete control?

What about Box cameras and the like that had fully manual, variable controls for time and aperture, but had a legend such as, "If it's sunny, set the camera to 1/25s and f/16 when loaded with Adox film"?

Should you be forced to shoot without an external exposure meter for these cameras to enter them in the P&S contest?

QuoteOriginally posted by audiobomber Quote
The main difference between the S95 and the G12 to me is the hot shoe.

Flash could be another line in the chart:

In-body flash, 2 points
Pop-up flash, 1 point
External flash/hot shoe, 0
I'd say:

All fully automatic flashes with no override: 2 points. Pop-up or in-body flash with override: 1 point. Hot shoe: 0 points. If it has pop-up and a hot shoe, 0 points.
10-07-2011, 12:23 PM   #81
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QuoteOriginally posted by unixrevolution Quote
All fully automatic flashes with no override
I've never seen a point & shoot camera where you couldn't turn off the flash. And I've used some really cheap p&s cameras.

There are significant differences between in-body and pop-up flash. Pop-ups as used on a Q or DSLR reduce red-eye, and allow the use of a diffuser. I've never seen a diffuser for in-body flash. If you know of one, let me know, I'll buy it.
10-07-2011, 01:00 PM   #82
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QuoteOriginally posted by audiobomber Quote
I've never seen a point & shoot camera where you couldn't turn off the flash. And I've used some really cheap p&s cameras.
I have used a few, granted though they were film-era. How about this: No-override auto flash or no flash at all, 2.5 points, In-body flash, 2 points, pop-up flash, 1 point, hot-shoe in combination with none or any of the above, 0 points.

QuoteOriginally posted by audiobomber Quote
There are significant differences between in-body and pop-up flash. Pop-ups as used on a Q or DSLR reduce red-eye, and allow the use of a diffuser. I've never seen a diffuser for in-body flash. If you know of one, let me know, I'll buy it.
The reason I was hesitant to make the distinction is that some on-body flashes can be so far from the lens axis as to be essentially the same as a pop-up, and other pop-up flashes like the Canon SX120IS and S95 are so close to the lens axis they may as well be on-body. I don't want to get down to measuring the lens axis>flash displacement though

As for a point and shoot camera in-body flash diffuser, you are now obligated by your own statement to buy a Gary Fong Delta.



It's a pretty cool piece actually.
10-07-2011, 01:45 PM   #83
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QuoteOriginally posted by unixrevolution Quote
As for a point and shoot camera in-body flash diffuser, you are now obligated by your own statement to buy a Gary Fong Delta

It's a pretty cool piece actually.
It is a clever idea, but that guy isn't shy to charge is he? How about if I wait for the Chinese eBay version, or DIY one of my own?

10-08-2011, 04:08 AM   #84
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Revised Point&Shoot Ratings Table

OK. Based on what everyone has been saying I have revised the table.
  • Left column is now 2 points, middle column is 1 point and right column is 0 points - less confusion
  • "Scale-focus film cameras now included, as well as crude "manual" focus on some bridge cameras
  • Slight revision to not penalize APS-C sensors so heavily when they are in non-DSLR cameras with fixed lenses
  • Exposure Controls revised
  • Dynamic Range controls now added - I think they can be a huge advantage
  • Flash systems now included
  • Image format saved now revised


Is this an improvement?

What do you think should be the cut-off now?
10-08-2011, 07:54 AM   #85
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QuoteOriginally posted by Anton Magus Quote
Is this an improvement?
Four items:

1) In exposure controls, by "program shift" I suppose you mean EV adjustments? Some digital P&S's allow that in-menu. Some film (and probably some digital) P&S's have a dedicated EV switch for backlit scenes. Does a backlight switch count as exposure program shift?

2) Sorry, I think APS-C is worth 2 points, not 1 point. It's just too fat and juicy to be considered non-advanced.

3) Should video streams be considered? Should we distinguish between video frames that are selected during PP (after the shutter press) vs frames that are grabbed via a one-shot button, ie, taking a still with a vid.cam?

4) And that leads to drive modes. Do we consider a camera's capability for burst shooting?

QuoteQuote:
What do you think should be the cut-off now?
Ah, now we move from numerology to theology. I'll weasel out: The cut-off is to be determined by the contest judge!

Last edited by RioRico; 10-08-2011 at 08:00 AM.
10-08-2011, 01:10 PM   #86
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QuoteOriginally posted by Anton Magus Quote
Revised Point&Shoot Ratings Table
My S95 comes out to 5.

As I said before without any reference to size and mass, especially when when trying to define what is and is not a PS, seems to be a glaring omission.
As it is it's a laundry list of camera features that taken in isolation one could never guess is supposed to apply specifically to PS cameras only.
In other words I don't think it would be that hard to find, according to the chart, a 16 point two pound camera for instance.
It is effective in sorting out the simple from the complex but could benefit from a bit of refining considering its intended purpose.

Last edited by wildman; 10-08-2011 at 01:35 PM.
10-08-2011, 01:35 PM   #87
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QuoteOriginally posted by wildman Quote
As I said before without any reference to size and mass, especially when when trying to define what is and is not a PS, seems to be a glaring omission.
As it is it's a laundry list of camera features that taken in isolation one could never guess is supposed to apply specifically to PS cameras only.
In other words I don't think it would be that hard to find, according to the chart, a 16 point two pound camera for instance.
Indeed. My Argoflex, a beautiful art-deco hunk of junk styled by the Raymond Loewy studios, scores a perfect 16, and is about as unwieldy as they come. Shoots 620 film too, so all rolls must be re-spooled. Not exactly handy...
10-08-2011, 02:23 PM   #88
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QuoteOriginally posted by RioRico Quote
Indeed. My Argoflex, a beautiful art-deco hunk of junk styled by the Raymond Loewy studios, scores a perfect 16, and is about as unwieldy as they come. Shoots 620 film too, so all rolls must be re-spooled. Not exactly handy...
But it was a point and shoot when new, and very compact for the time. I also dont think
Its fair to judge its film loading convenience based on having to respool. When 620 was in every corner store it was very convenient to buy and load film indeed.

I consider this a factor but not a deal breaker, be

How about:

2 points: fits in hip pocket or shirt pocket

1 point: fits in jacket pocket, cargo pocket or purse comfortably

0 points: not easily carried concealed on ones person; requires dedicated bag or carry strap.
10-08-2011, 02:28 PM   #89
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QuoteOriginally posted by audiobomber Quote
It is a clever idea, but that guy isn't shy to charge is he? How about if I wait for the Chinese eBay version, or DIY one of my own?
You said youd buy it. No excuses!

I bet you can find it cheaper on Amazon or something. Its quite interesting how the plastic sleeve clamps gently onto the lens barrel.
10-08-2011, 04:48 PM   #90
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QuoteOriginally posted by unixrevolution Quote
How about:

2 points: fits in hip pocket or shirt pocket

1 point: fits in jacket pocket, cargo pocket or purse comfortably

0 points: not easily carried concealed on ones person; requires dedicated bag or carry strap.
A good start.
I think I would have a row for size only and a row for weight only.
How you would implement it would require a lot of quibbling over exact numbers however.

For instance my S95 fits nicely in the shirt pocket of my light weight summer cotton shirt at 7oz but if it was 12oz nah.
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