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10-11-2011, 02:03 PM   #106
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I belong to the class of people who is qualified to judge between p&s and pro cameras. I'm the guy who tells you that you can't have that camera at this show. Usually I'm nice and tell people to put it away or I'm going to have to walk them down to coat check to check their camera and I also let them know that they don't want to wait in line to get it back. Most are good about that rule.

I see people with different types of detachable lens cameras, but we generally only restrict SLR style cameras, film or digital, because that's what the licensed photographers use. We're not trained to judge cameras. Sometimes I try to stop video but it's impossible to stop 1000 kids at the same time.

As far as I'm concerned, if you have anything less than a Nikon D40 or a Canon SLR, you're OK. I've tried to pass off my white Kx as a toy camera, but not everyone believes me.

10-12-2011, 02:10 AM   #107
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QuoteOriginally posted by wildman Quote
so far as I can tell under "viewing/composing System" any camera with just a LCD would logically qualify for all three conditions. this is what I come up with for S95:
Use the newest table.
The S95 comes out with 7 points (going down the table, 1+1+2+2+0+0+1+0=7). I would guess 7 would be the right cut-off, so the S95 is acceptable.
Also, the P&S competitions may use some handicapping system to level the playing field, rather than just eliminate cameras which don't reach the cut-off score.
10-12-2011, 02:12 AM   #108
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QuoteOriginally posted by dragonfly Quote
As far as I'm concerned, if you have anything less than a Nikon D40 or a Canon SLR, you're OK. I've tried to pass off my white Kx as a toy camera, but not everyone believes me.
LOL - Kx is a "toy camera"!
Sorry Dragonfly, but I don't believe you either. ROFL!
10-12-2011, 02:22 AM   #109
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QuoteOriginally posted by unixrevolution Quote
I am the proud and very happy owner of a Kodak Medalist, and I think I need to set a few things straight about it.
Thanks Unixrevolution for that very interesting information about what must be one of the all-time greats of the camera world. It just shows - great design and craftsmanship never ages. I wonder how many of today's cameras will still be around in 60 years, able to take quality photographs and hold pride of place in a camera collection? You must be very proud to have one of these Medalist beauties.
As for my opinion, I would love to see some pics from it entered in the P&S Competitions!

10-12-2011, 09:48 AM   #110
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I just ran across this thread and didn't think I was ever going to get done reading it!! Isn't point and shoot mostly a marketing term to try and sell to people on the basis that they can just point and shoot? Its before my time but back in the days when slr cameras were transitioning from being fully manual to automatic, were some of them not marketed as point and shoot cameras? I frequently see slr cameras listed on ebay as point and shoot cameras and reading manuals on old film slr's (generally to see what mount they used because I want the lens that came with it), I have seen manufacture description refer to slr cameras as point and shoot a time or two? I am not saying ebay descriptions are fact that you would use to make a rule but it goes to what peoples perceptions of what a point and shoot is.

No matter how you categorize it there are going to be endless exceptions. A table would be good for a guideline but you could easily add dozens of relevant categories with dozens of exceptions. Perhaps a simple table would be good as a guideline, not as a rule for exclusion. Listing your camera so that people could take that into account is also an excellent idea and there is no reason the two couldn't work in tandem.

Using canon as an example as that is what I mostly shot in my prosumer days, here was my take on it.

elph series- compact point and shoot (point and shoot but with additional limitations that go with being a compact/subcompact camera)

a series - point and shoot (maybe on the very high end price, quality and feature wise but a classic point and shoot camera)

g series - prosumer camera (not a term I see used here much but a commonly used term and a category in its own as far as I'm concerned)

s series - compact prosumer, generally a step above the a series and more in common with the g series, though defiantly stripped down compared to a g series (perhaps in a similar manner to the way an elph is stripped down compared to an a series)

dslr - (speaks for itself, above point and shoot and prosumer on this scale)

There are endless exceptions and even more so now days, grey areas, hybrids that fit in 2 or more categories etc. I still think the above is a good very basic and general guideline for classes of cameras. compact, point and shoot, prosumer and professional.
If you don't have a separate category for prosumer though, you have to lump it in with the point and shoot or the professional. Some prosumer cameras are in a whole different league in so many ways than a cheap point and shoot though (compare a canon a series to a canon g series).

How you want to deal with comparing a 50$ vivitar or the magnatutde of 50-100$ kodak/poloroid etc. with a 200-300$ canon a series is another issue on top of it all. Fyi I found my receipt for one of my canon a series. I'm not sure if it was the a40 or a70 (it was in the a40 box but it says "70 powershot di". Price was 199.99$ plus 29.99$ for dazzle compact (card reader) + 69.99$ for 128MB compact flash - 99.98$ grp discount (sale price) = 199.99. This was at office max. I think suggested retail was around 300$ but they did not cost that much. I'm also thinking this was the a40 as I'm pretty sure I paid more than that for the a70. Inflation adjust by 10 years or so if you like.

Fyi, talking about exceptions,that sony v1 riorico mentioned retailed for 800$ (not sure what they actually sold for, got mine for 300$, new old stock). It was meant to directly compete with the canon g series. It lacks some features like raw but has things like infrared night vision, laser holagram auto focus assist (I think its laser, it projects a grid of lines on the subject), histogram etc. Size has been mentioned as a deciding factor. The sony v1 is smaller than the canon a40.
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Last edited by ripit; 10-12-2011 at 09:54 AM.
10-12-2011, 12:57 PM   #111
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QuoteOriginally posted by ripit Quote
Fyi, talking about exceptions,that sony v1 riorico mentioned retailed for 800$ (not sure what they actually sold for, got mine for 300$, new old stock). It was meant to directly compete with the canon g series. It lacks some features like raw but has things like infrared night vision, laser holagram auto focus assist (I think its laser, it projects a grid of lines on the subject), histogram etc. Size has been mentioned as a deciding factor. The sony v1 is smaller than the canon a40.
I just found the receipt for my first DSC-V1. It was US$577 shipped (from Fry's) in Nov.2003. Plus another US$45 for the wired remote. We also got its slimmer sister the DSC-P10 at the same time, I think for around US$425. After I broke the first V1, I got a second NIB on eBay for around US$125 IIRC. And it's always with me. Yes, the V1 was about Sony's top-of-the-line camera then, and yes, it was good to have paychecks then!

Nothing quite compared with the V1 then, and nothing really does now either, despite sensor evolution. I haven't tried those Canons, but I recently acquired something of similar vintage, a circa-2002 Olympus C5050 (US$10 at a yard sale). The Oly is heavier, similar features except no IR/lasers and it does RAW, but the V1 is still much more capable -- and instantly usable. Now I just use the Oly for product shots; the V1 is always in my pocket.

Advanced P&S's? Yes. Better than decade-newer P&S technology? No way.
10-12-2011, 02:04 PM   #112
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If you are referring to the canons I listed being vintage, the models I was familiar with were vintage but canons current product line follows the same trend so its still a good example if anyone is familiar with canons.
Elph series are the little compact cameras, canons description
"Canon's point-and-shoot Digital ELPH Cameras are easy to use and boast an array of helpful shooting modes, creative features and advanced functions in an incredibly portable package."

a series are the point and shoots (currently retailing for 100-160$),
"You'll quickly discover that the easiest way to capture a great image is to simply "point" and "shoot" using any of our compact, feature-friendly A-Series digital cameras."

g series is prosumer (500$) and s series are I assume the compact and or stripped down prosumer versions (230-430$), they are under the heading high end advanced digital cameras
"Canon's high-end PowerShot digital cameras incorporate the creative performance of a professional digital SLR camera and the compact convenience of a point-and-shoot."

I guess canon is calling the higher end prosumer ones point and shoots but to me its kind of a different category of point and shoot (they are also comparing "creative performance to a dslr).

Personally on the v1 there are aspects that I think still beat out any couple of hundred dollar current model camera but there are also aspects where technology has made even a 100$ camera beat out the v1. If I had the choice to give up my v1 and receive a 200$ camera, I would be tempted to keep the v1 (might need to do a little more research on new cameras first). If nothing else, I have not considered getting a point and shoot and don't expect to anytime soon as the v1 serves quite well. I also have a surprisingly capable 100$ olympus 10mp so I'm happy on the small to medium size end all around (credit card size and about 1/2" thick).
10-13-2011, 06:24 AM   #113
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I missed how this thread came about. To take a step back, was there an objection to these definitions?
i. Cameras Not Allowed:
1. 35mm, APS, 4/3 Film or Digital SLRs.
2. Interchangeable lens cameras of any kind.
3. Medium format SLRs, Rangefinders, and TLRs.
4. Large format cameras.

ii. Cameras permitted (cameras listed as acceptable here supersede rule i above):
1. Fixed-lens 35mm and smaller-format film and digital rangefinder and viewfinder cameras
2. Interchangeable or Fixed-lens 110 Film SLRs
3. 6x9, 6x7, 6x6, and 6x4.5 Medium Format"Folding", "Box" or "Holga-style" scale-focus cameras


(Cut and pasted from Ivoire's post https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-compact-digital-film-cameras/15757...aving-fun.html)


The above seem very clear and reasonable IMO.

10-13-2011, 11:02 AM   #114
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QuoteOriginally posted by audiobomber Quote
I missed how this thread came about. To take a step back, was there an objection to these definitions?
Looks good to me. And no decision tables!
10-13-2011, 11:28 AM   #115
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QuoteOriginally posted by audiobomber Quote
I missed how this thread came about. To take a step back, was there an objection to these definitions?
i. Cameras Not Allowed:
1. 35mm, APS, 4/3 Film or Digital SLRs.
2. Interchangeable lens cameras of any kind.
3. Medium format SLRs, Rangefinders, and TLRs.
4. Large format cameras.

ii. Cameras permitted (cameras listed as acceptable here supersede rule i above):
1. Fixed-lens 35mm and smaller-format film and digital rangefinder and viewfinder cameras
2. Interchangeable or Fixed-lens 110 Film SLRs
3. 6x9, 6x7, 6x6, and 6x4.5 Medium Format"Folding", "Box" or "Holga-style" scale-focus cameras


(Cut and pasted from Ivoire's post https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-compact-digital-film-cameras/15757...aving-fun.html)


The above seem very clear and reasonable IMO.
:ugh:

+1

10-13-2011, 01:19 PM   #116
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i. Cameras Not Allowed:
1. 35mm, APS, 4/3, Film or Digital SLRs.
2. Interchangeable lens cameras of any kind.
3. Medium format SLRs, Rangefinders, and TLRs.
4. Large format cameras.

ii. Cameras permitted (cameras listed as acceptable here supersede rule i above):
1. Fixed-lens 35mm and smaller-format film and digital rangefinder and viewfinder cameras
2. Interchangeable or Fixed-lens 110 Film SLRs
3. 6x9, 6x7, 6x6, and 6x4.5 Medium Format"Folding", "Box" or "Holga-style" scale-focus cameras



I can see where a couple of cameras would be questionable. I believe the Fuji X100 and Sigma DP-1 qualify as point & shoots using the above criteria. They would clearly not be defined as p&s by some (including me).
10-13-2011, 02:35 PM   #117
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QuoteOriginally posted by audiobomber Quote
i. Cameras Not Allowed:
1. 35mm, APS, 4/3, Film or Digital SLRs.


I can see where a couple of cameras would be questionable. I believe the Fuji X100 and Sigma DP-1 qualify as point & shoots using the above criteria. They would clearly not be defined as p&s by some (including me).
Expand #1: No APS sensors on any digicam. Maximum sensor diagonal is 11mm, the 2/3" spec.
10-13-2011, 02:53 PM   #118
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QuoteOriginally posted by RioRico Quote
Expand #1: No APS sensors on any digicam. Maximum sensor diagonal is 11mm, the 2/3" spec.
Yeah, that would do it for me.
10-13-2011, 11:05 PM   #119
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QuoteOriginally posted by audiobomber Quote
I missed how this thread came about. To take a step back, was there an objection to these definitions? i. Cameras Not Allowed: 1. 35mm, APS, 4/3 Film or Digital SLRs. 2. Interchangeable lens cameras of any kind. 3. Medium format SLRs, Rangefinders, and TLRs. 4. Large format cameras. ii. Cameras permitted (cameras listed as acceptable here supersede rule i above): 1. Fixed-lens 35mm and smaller-format film and digital rangefinder and viewfinder cameras 2. Interchangeable or Fixed-lens 110 Film SLRs 3. 6x9, 6x7, 6x6, and 6x4.5 Medium Format"Folding", "Box" or "Holga-style" scale-focus cameras (Cut and pasted from Ivoire's post Point and Shoot Contest #46 People Relaxing/Having Fun) The above seem very clear and reasonable IMO.
@ Audiobomber
The rules you quoted above worked well for a long time, until this last Contest #46.
Then someone entered a photograph taken with a Fujifilm X100 which has an APS-C sensor, a fixed lens and a kind of hybrid optical/digital viewfinder. Some discussion ensued on the Contest thread and the judge for that Contest had to make a decision. The judge allowed the entry (which is their absolute right).
Another entry was submitted, taken using a Pentax Q which has interchangeable lenses, asking if entries from the Q were OK. Again the judge had to decide whether to allow or reject the entry.

The Point & Shoot Contests are friendly competitions which are geared to accepting entries from a wide range of cameras. As you pointed out, the rules are pretty simple and designed to keep things relatively equal for everyone.

My contention was that I did not think that the judge (who is only the judge for 1 contest) should be put on the spot to decide if a camera is acceptable or not. One judge may accept the X100 and the Q, and the next judge may not, and that also means the entrants don't really know where they stand from Contest to Contest. So, I asked the question that nobody wanted to tackle. Did the Contest participants think that either the X100 and the Pentax Q had an UNFAIR advantage over entries shot with other, completely acceptable P&S cameras? If there was no UNFAIR advantage, then amend the rules of the competition to permanently allow them, and if there was believed to be an UNFAIR advantage, then amend the rules (if required) to prohibit them.

This simply takes the decision away from each judge and makes it fair and easy to follow for all existing and potential participants.

I also mentioned that I personally didn't think there was any unfair advantage. That was the comment that seemed to unleash a flood of responses on the thread beginning the whole question of what is, and what is not, a Point and Shoot Camera.
The "tables" covering different criteria are really a summation of some of the points raised by people on this thread, but for almost every view there are a number of contradictory views, making it impossible to come to a conclusion.

Everyone seems to agree that cameras that would generally fall in the category of a DSLR are OUT, and compact cameras with small sensors and minimal controls are IN. The really tough part is for cameras with advanced features and large sensors, but with fixed lenses. The P&S Contests also attract entries from film-shooters, often using pretty old fully manual cameras. It would be a shame to exclude them, but it is not easy to frame rules which allow, say, a 35mm SLR with interchangeable lenses but not a fixed lens camera which just happens to have an APS-C sensor.

That is the problem!
10-14-2011, 05:23 AM   #120
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i. Cameras Not Allowed:
2. Interchangeable lens cameras of any kind.


Thanks for the explanation. I had the gist, except for a fairly major detail (i.e the power of the judge to allow/disallow an entry). The way the rules are written, the Q photo should clearly not have been allowed. Judging the photos is one thing, but the judge should not be able to overrule the posted contest rules. The X100 does qualify, so IMO the rules would benefit from a limit on sensor size, as per RioRico's post above.

I think the film camera rules are excellent as written, except for one item:

ii. Cameras permitted (cameras listed as acceptable here supersede rule i above):
2. Interchangeable or Fixed-lens 110 Film SLRs


Is it fair to exclude the Q and allow 110 film with IL? The cameras have similar limitations in ISO performance, and both violate the interchangeable lens rule. If one is allowed, the other should be as well? Maybe that's what the judge was thinking in allowing the Q, but still, the rules should be observed during the contest and changed prior to the next contest. I would use the following rules, if the intent is to exclude the Q and X100 from the contest.

i. Cameras Not Allowed:
1. Film or Digital SLRs.
2. Sensor diagonal greater than 11mm (2/3" spec).
2. Interchangeable lens cameras of any kind.
3. Medium format SLRs, Rangefinders, and TLRs.
4. Large format cameras.

ii. Cameras permitted (cameras listed as acceptable here supersede rule i above):
1. Fixed-lens 35mm and smaller-format film and digital rangefinder and viewfinder cameras
2. Fixed-lens 110 Film SLRs
3. 6x9, 6x7, 6x6, and 6x4.5 Medium Format"Folding", "Box" or "Holga-style" scale-focus cameras

Last edited by audiobomber; 10-14-2011 at 05:40 AM.
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