[Anton Magus]

We have to constantly bear in mind that the objective is to attract as many entries as possible in the P&S Competition, so making the competition exclusively for cameras with very limited controls and adjustments is contrary to the objective.
The only thing we are trying to achieve is FAIR competition.

The winners are NOT selected based on image quality alone, but rather on being able to enter a photograph which best depicts the theme. And, for goodness sake, there is not a huge prize for winning, simply some self-satisfaction and the friendly congratulations of the other entrants.

Personally, I just enjoy the competition for the fun of it and the challenge of finding subjects to photograph that fit the theme. Yes, its good to try and get the best image you can with the camera you are using, and maybe you want to use manual settings to achieve that. So what! If your camera allows you to set something by turning a dial, twisting a knob or selecting from a menu, then so be it. You still won't win the competition unless you have a good subject, good composition and an appealing picture. As far as I am concerned I would have the permitted cameras as wide as possible, so I tend to favor rules that restrict sensor size for digital cameras and non-ttl viewfinders for film cameras of any format.

[RioRico]

Except Post-Processing is permitted, which often destroys the exif data....

Disallowed! No EXIF = no entry.

Of course, EXIF's can be faked. How? Load two image files into an editor; I use PaintShopPro9. Overlay the contents of one with the other's. File1: ERASE ALL. File2: COPY ALL. File1: PASTE. When saved, File1's EXIF data frames the inserted File2 image. Use an ordinary JPG as the frame and plug all your edited pictures-for-posting into it. But that's a little much, isn't it, for a no-reward contest?

[audiobomber]

Yes, its good to try and get the best image you can with the camera you are using, and maybe you want to use manual settings to achieve that. So what! If your camera allows you to set something by turning a dial, twisting a knob or selecting from a menu, then so be it.

That reminds me of something. If I'm shooting a soccer game with a p&s, I could set the mode dial for Tv, or I could set it for Sports. Not a big distinction.

[audiobomber]

Of course, EXIF's can be faked. How? Load two image files into an editor; I use PaintShopPro9. Overlay the contents of one with the other's.

LOL! RioRico's been using his K20D for the p&s competition.

[audiobomber]

I doubt you can find the A570 anywhere new for $150 now - you might have got a great deal on it when they were clearing old stock, but that isn't what most of its users paid for it.

I meant to say A590 IS, that's the one shown above. They have the same controls. I bought the A570 for one of my sons, the other bought the A590 for himself.

•Auto, Manual, Tv, Av, and 12 Pre-programmed creative scene modes for beginners

The Powershot A590 IS with ship beginning in March 2008 with an MSRP of US$179.99. The Digital camera kit includes two standard AA alkaline batteries, a 32MB MMC+ Memory card, a USB interface cable, an AV cable, a wrist strap, and Canon's software suite.

[Laurentiu Cristofor]

We have to constantly bear in mind that the objective is to attract as many entries as possible in the P&S Competition, so making the competition exclusively for cameras with very limited controls and adjustments is contrary to the objective.

I don't think that is the objective of this thread. This thread could be useful for shaping the rules of the P&S contest, but its goal isn't to shape the rules of the contest.

[Laurentiu Cristofor]

That reminds me of something. If I'm shooting a soccer game with a p&s, I could set the mode dial for Tv, or I could set it for Sports. Not a big distinction.

You have a dial!? I have to navigate stupid menus to select a mode when you can just twist a dial? Disallowed! Off with his head!

[audiobomber]

You have a dial!? I have to navigate stupid menus to select a mode when you can just twist a dial?

It has an OVF too, how jealous are you now? The only differences between a Canon A720 IS and a base level dslr are the fixed 35-210mm zoom lens and 1/2.5 " sensor. I use the 720 to post archival photos of the properties I manage. The DSLR's are strictly for amusement. So you're correct, the Canon is not a p&s, it's a pro camera.


(Not my photo)

[Laurentiu Cristofor]

It has an OVF too, how jealous are you now? The only differences between a Canon A720 IS and a base level dslr are the fixed 35-210mm zoom lens and 1/2.5 " sensor.

Don't tell me you can manually focus that zoom lens too

I have an S3IS - I never thought about it as a P&S though. With extension adapter on, it can be taken for a small DSLR.

[unixrevolution]

It has an OVF too, how jealous are you now? The only differences between a Canon A720 IS and a base level dslr are the fixed 35-210mm zoom lens and 1/2.5 " sensor. I use the 720 to post archival photos of the properties I manage. The DSLR's are strictly for amusement. So you're correct, the Canon is not a p&s, it's a pro camera.


(Not my photo)

I've always wondered why Pentax can't build their P&S cameras more like this.

Then I realize that even Canon isn't anymore.

[giuseppesavo]

Mirrorless, small sensor, fixed lens, single purpose (i.e. not a phone or ipad).

I would add:
total lack of manual commands.

[johnmflores]

The other criteria are too complex. I propose the following:

1. Composition via rear LCD. Only a small percentage of cameras have EVF or OVFs these days - dSLRs, some M43, Leica, Fuji, G12, P7000, Samsung....that may be it.

2. May have manual modes, but automated and assisted modes are given priority in the interface. For example, if you need to menu-dive to adjust aperture or shutter, it's a point-and-shoot.

3. Your mom has to be able to use it.

[wildman]

"What is, and what is NOT, a "Point and shoot?"

What you say is or is not a PS.

Given that...

... to me the absolute irreducible essence of PS is -

AVAILABILITY - "The quality of being at hand when needed"
(Webster's New World dictionary)

That is a camera that, potentially, is always with you and capable of
capturing a useable image under the widest possible shooting conditions.

Thus:
1. The smaller the better consistent with human ergonomics.
2. The lighter the better consistent with human ergonomics.
3. The highest possible integration of "useful" functions
within the camera consistent with above.

That is when you grab the camera for a day of shooting under conditions
unknown ideally everything you need should be integrated within the
camera - no extra lens', add on viewfinders, cases, filters, neck straps,
remotes etc etc is necessary.
Just you, the camera and the subject.

4. To the extent possible the camera should be fast and responsive. - the
most common shortcoming of digital "PS" cameras.

So far as I am concerned to the degree you deviate from the above
you deviate from the ideal of what a PS should be.

The best "Point and Shot" I ever had was my 1956 Nikon S2 rangefinder.
Others may argue for the Leica M3 but you get the idea.

As a design philosophy "PS" is nothing new it goes well back
into the 19th century they just didn't call it that back then.

Just one man's opinion.

[Anton Magus]

For the purposes of this debate, I tend to agree with wildman's definition of a PS camera,
"That is a camera that, potentially, is always with you and capable of capturing a useable image under the widest possible shooting conditions."

Perhaps, one step further, it is the camera that you just take out of your pocket to capture an image of some chance event which occurs. Usually you will not have the time to set up the ISO, white balance, aperture and shutter speed (although you could have partially set these in advance) so you just shoot on "auto", "green mode", "P" or whatever your camera brand uses as a label for fully automatic. Maybe your camera has a fixed focal length lens, or maybe a zoom lens - it doesn't matter. The essence is that you just take out your camera and capture the moment.

Now, if you are in a setting where you hope to capture fast-moving objects, you could preset your camera to "sports" or you could dial in shutter priority and preset the shutter speed to say 1/1000 so that you will not have to mess around when something happens. Again, surely that doesn't matter?

Of course, if you are a masochist, this camera could be a large DSLR with a long zoom lens.
And if you are a sadist, you make your wife carry it!

[Anton Magus]

Interesting fact for those who feel that a PS camera should have NO controls...
PC World's "Top 10" Point-and-Shoot cameras (Top 10 Compact Point-and-Shoot Cameras | PCWorld) show that 8 of the top 10 have some control over aperture and shutter speed, whether by menu selection or other controls.

To me this indicates that from the perspective of the Point-and-Shoot Competitions on this forum, restricting entries to fully automatic cameras, or fixed setting cameras with NO exposure controls, would just kill the competition stone dead.

As this forum's competitions work now, those images shot with DSLR's may be submitted to their competitions, and those who shoot with non-DSLR cameras may enter the Point and Shoot competitions. Consequently the Point and Shoot competition attracts entries taken with a very wide range of cameras, both digital and film. Maximum size for an entry is 1024 x 768 and the entries are judged "as submitted". The judging, going by past Point and Shoot competition results, is based firstly on how well the image fits the theme of the competition; secondly on the "interest/uniqueness" or maybe the "wow" factor of the image; thirdly on the composition of the image; fourthly on the judge's likes and dislikes (which may be pretty subjective) and way last in the queue comes the image quality (as long as its not totally awful).

• These are FRIENDLY, FUN competitions intended to get people out and photographing images that fit the theme.
• Simply do the best you can with the camera you have with you.
• There is no prize. The winner sets the theme for the next competition, so they can't enter - which is maybe a penalty for winning.
• The more entries submitted, the more fun and challenging the competition becomes.

With image quality not being a serious factor for these competitions, the choice of camera should not be a serious factor either.

So, for the Point and Shoot Competitions, only the following should be excluded:-

• SLR and TLR cameras with TTL metering/focusing, digital or film, irrespective of sensor/film size.
• Interchangeable lens cameras EXCEPT those taking 110 film or digital with 1/2 or smaller sensors.
• Digital Cameras fitted with micro4/3 sensors or larger EXCEPT those with a separate optical/electronic (non-TTL) viewfinder for focus and composition.
• Multi-purpose cameras such as phone cameras, pad cameras etc where the camera is an add-on to the main function of the device.
• Any film, tape or digital "movie" or video cameras where a single frames is cut or extracted from a movie or digital video.

This would allow all "compact" cameras, range-finder type cameras and "bridge" cameras, including "super-zooms", irrespective of whether they are "fixed-settings", "fully automatic", or manually settable.
It would also allow a wide range of older film cameras of the folding, box or whatever types using medium to large format film.
It would also allow the Finepix X100 (with fixed lens and OVF/EVF) even though it has an APS-C sensor
It would also allow the Pentax Q with inter-changeable lenses (because of its small sensor).

It would NOT allow the Pentax 110 (which is an interchangeable lens SLR with TTL focusing) but would allow the Rollei A110 and Minox 110S (which are rangefinder cameras).

Ultimately, all the allowed cameras are, to a varying extent, point and shoot cameras. Photographs taken with the allowed cameras all have a chance to win the point and shoot competitions

To me that would still result in a fair competition, once again bearing in mind that Image Quality is not the major factor in judging entries. The excellent "intelligence" of modern automatic cameras in terms of fast, precise auto-focus and accurate automatic exposure setting, together with the ability to set a wide range of "modes" for portraits, landscapes, sports, high-contrast scenes, parties, food, pets etc etc really means that having the ability to manually set shutter speed or lens aperture or focus is of marginal benefit and takes more time than the appropriate mode setting. The people at a real disadvantage here are those shooting with film cameras. They cannot immediately see their results and there is a cost associated with every shot they take. Further, they are locked to the ISO of the film loaded and its type - color or black and white. On the upside they (usually) have better definition of shadows and highlights.