What is, and what is NOT, a "Point and shoot?"

kyteflyer · 12-25-2011, 05:29 PM

Originally posted by RioRico

It never ends, eh? Consensus is impossible, eh? Like herding cats, eh?
NOTE: I've herded cats. That's easier than getting consensus here.

rofl... its easier to let the cats herd you.

No consensus will be reached. I'm all for the most simplification possible.

Compact digital cameras with sensors less than 1"
Compact film cameras with fixed lenses.

That would exclude large and medium format film cameras but allow 35mm film, as well as the old instamatic type (if you can still get the film for them). Hmm... otoh it would also include my old Zeiss which takes a rather large film (110? 125?) but its compact and has a fixed lens, albeit on a bellows thingy.

Nope... no consensus will be reached...

Originally posted by chubasco

The all-pervasive/evergreen word should be [COMPACT]. I'm looking at a
Yashica-A on my desk and no way in hell am I gonna cram it into one of my
shirtpockets and walk around town, looking like some Amazon warrior. I
wouldn't want to pack it in a roomy coat pocket for very long, either.

If you have to do something else, walk in light...

This about sums up my feelings.

Last edited by kyteflyer; 12-25-2011 at 05:34 PM.

RioRico · 12-25-2011, 05:47 PM

Originally posted by kyteflyer

Originally posted by chubasco:

The all-pervasive/evergreen word should be [COMPACT]. I'm looking at a
Yashica-A on my desk and no way in hell am I gonna cram it into one of my
shirtpockets and walk around town, looking like some Amazon warrior. I
wouldn't want to pack it in a roomy coat pocket for very long, either.

This about sums up my feelings.

There are different 'compacts' and different TLRs too. Some of the latter are just box.cams with waist-level VFs. Me mate's Kodak Brownie Twin 20 is like that. OTOH my dad's Argoflex E is a couple steps up from there, with full manual controls, and weighs less (670g) than a Yashica Electro GSN 35 rangefinder (690g) and Dad carried it stealthily for well over a decade -- it's only about as bulky as a C3 "The Brick" and weighs less. So while neither the Brownie Twin nor the Argoflex will fit in most shirt pockets, they can be stuffed into other convenient places.

And yes, the secret to herding cats is to be herded by them. Rather, figure out where they're going, and make sure they get there. !No hay problemo!

unixrevolution · 12-25-2011, 07:49 PM

Originally posted by chubasco

The all-pervasive/evergreen word should be [COMPACT]. I'm looking at a
Yashica-A on my desk and no way in hell am I gonna cram it into one of my
shirtpockets and walk around town, looking like some Amazon warrior. I
wouldn't want to pack it in a roomy coat pocket for very long, either.

If you have to do something else, walk in light...

I think the biggest problem is that just like what constitutes a point and shoot is different to different people, the size and weight of a camera thats perfectly reasonable to tote everywhere differs too. I think my 635 is entirely reasonably sized. You apparently dont.

I fought one war to get confronted with another, and it seems as though you all just want me to get fed up and leave, so im out. You win. Enjoy.

Laurentiu Cristofor · 12-26-2011, 12:12 AM

Originally posted by unixrevolution

Are there any other cameras you specifically know I use and enjoy that you'd like to ban?

Huh? Does this sound like banning to you?

Originally posted by Laurentiu Cristofor

Let's just allow any film camera.

Bart · 12-26-2011, 05:04 AM

It would seem to me that there are two aims to this thread:
- finding a consensus on what is a P&S
- setting the rules for the future P&s contests.

The first one seem rather unlikely to be reached during my life time.

The second one is a bit theoretical since the rules of the P&S contest state the winner sets the rules...

However, I'd like to make a suggetsion. How's this for a compromise:

The Rules

1. Have Fun!

2. Cameras: Enter with whatever camera you consider a P&S (*)

3. Entries will close on ___________

4. Maximum image dimensions are 1024x768 pixels.

5. List camera brand, model with entry for all to see.

6. THEME: ________________

7. Max of 3 photographs per person.

8. Post processing is fine.

9. Contest winner selects theme, sets closing date and judges next competition

(*) if you consider your Nex5, M9, your 645D, your 6x7 or whatever a P&S, be my guest.

Anton Magus · 12-26-2011, 10:44 AM

As was pointed out earlier in this thread we seem to have broken into two groups.
Group 1 is engaged in discussion about what constitutes a point and shoot camera, and I wish them luck with that, but it doesn't interest me.
Group 2 is engaged in framing a set of rules for what is currently called the "Point and Shoot Contest". I am with this second group and my comments apply solely to that contest and its future rules.

In suggesting rules for this competition I would suggest :-

We change the name to the "Compact Camera Contest" so as to avoid getting caught up in the whole Point and Shoot versus Point and focus and shoot etc argument.
The objective is to have a fun contest for photographers using cameras where depth of field is not optically viewable while taking the shot.
The contest will be judged on the subject and composition rather than image quality.

The Rules

1. Have Fun!

2. Allowed Cameras

Digital Interchangeable lens cameras with sensors up to 1" (Includes Pentax Q and Nikon 1)
Digital fixed lens cameras with sensors up to APS-C (Includes Fuji X100)
Film Interchangeable lens cameras producing a negative up to 24 x18
Film fixed lens cameras up to medium format

Cameras ineligible for the contests are:-

Large format film cameras
DSLRs or MILCs with Micro 4/3 or larger digital sensors
SLRs taking 35mm or larger format film

3. Entries will close on ___________

4. Maximum image dimensions are 1024x768 pixels.

5. List camera brand, model with entry for all to see.

6. THEME: ________________

7. Max of 3 photographs per person.

8. Post processing is fine.

9. Contest winner agrees to use these rules, selects theme, sets closing date and judges next competition

My own feeling is that this "discussion" has now gone on long enough with respect to the Compact Camera Competition.
I believe most of the participants will be quite happy with these rules, including those who sometimes use film cameras but have been regular participants for a long time.
The only issue which may be contentious is the limiting sensor size for ILCs - should it be 1" or 4/3? There seemed to be a majority for 1" but I am not phased if this is upped to 4/3.
Overall I think these rules are fair for everyone who has previously entered these contests. They provide a reasonably level playing field.

I would now suggest that we either introduce them in January for the next Compact Camera Contest (formerly known as the Point and Shoot Contest) OR
We form a brand new contest called the Compact Camera Contest with these new rules while those who disagree with them and want to continue arguing, herding cats or run their own contest for pocket cameras or whatever they like, can do so on their own...

How does everyone feel about that?

**Jacquot** · 12-26-2011, 11:21 AM

Very interesting thread, although I've never submitted, I may in the future and have various cameras that would clearly fit this description. The contests must have gone successfully for a while without the controversy in the last 17 pages of threads, but as a new observer, I'd say go with it and start having fun!
David

kyteflyer · 12-26-2011, 01:44 PM

Originally posted by Anton Magus

How does everyone feel about that?

I'm just unsure about restricting or including by sensor size at all, now.

Compact ought to be the operative word, not the sensor size. An Olympus PEN or Panasonic GF/GX with a pancake lens is going to be compact. And Olympus E or Panasonic GH is not. I dunno, its all just getting out of hand.

Simplify it, make it about compact cameras.

chubasco · 12-28-2011, 10:11 AM

I would like to see this particular contest go back to its original premise. There
were two constants, that it be COMPACT and have a fixed lens. Originally, this
was for Pentax compact cameras with small sensors and their 35mm counterparts.
As time progressed other brands were welcomed, but it has now developed into
this BIG. SWOLLEN. BLOATED. THING.

Though I think I've entered pictures from 6x9 box cameras, all medium format
really have no place here, as well as any sensors above 2/3". And of course,
interchangeable lenses are completely out. There should be a contest for 1"
sensors and above (haven't seen any Sigma DP1 and 2 pictures) that would
include interchangeable lenses.

Had the OP included the word COMPACT in his thread title, the arc of
this discussion would have reached apogee several pages ago...

ivoire · 12-28-2011, 01:01 PM

Originally posted by chubasco

I would like to see this particular contest go back to its original premise..

Agree. If i were to win the december contest thats what i would do and allow the Q. People can just join in or not

kyteflyer · 12-28-2011, 01:09 PM

Pentax compacts, yes. I have yet to acquire one, but I think I will. (I'd love to get one which only had 10 or 12MP but now, they all seem to have heaps more)

chubasco · 12-28-2011, 04:03 PM

I wouldn't make this Pentax-brand specific, you'd sideline a number of contestants.

Our little contest is FUN, and it's natural people want to join in, even if their
camera doesn't meet the criteria. Looking over the forum architecture, it's
unfortunate there's no box to house contests. In this box could go DSLR/SLR,
medium format film/digital, 1" sensors and above with/without interchangeable
lenses, and <1" sensors with fixed lenses, including 35mm film (autofocus, zone
focus, RF). All could be formatted the same way with monthly theme. This would
completely end the fence-hopping.

Mike Cash · 12-28-2011, 04:05 PM

To throw a new curve ball into the discussion:

I always was of the opinion that only photos pulled from one's pre-existing stash should be allowed in the contests, rather than photos taken specifically for the purpose of entering after the theme had been announced.

Why is that? Simply because we accumulate a bunch of stuff that we have casually shot in the spaces in between where we do our more serious stuff....things that were shot in a more "for personal consumption" P&S frame of mind, which pretty much made the type of camera used irrelevant. I don't care what kind of camera a guy is limited to, if he is going out with the specific purpose in mind of taking a killer shot to try to win a contest then no matter how compact the camera or how rudimentary its features or how undemanding its user interface....he can hardly be said to have been in a P&S frame of mind.

I'm actually sort of surprised this point has t been brought up before.

And not having the slightest idea what sort of theme might be coming up would certainly encourage people to shoot a lot more stuff, don't you think? That would be the only way to ensure you had something to submit.

The idea of casual shots done on an assignment basis always struck me as self-contradictory.

ivoire · 12-28-2011, 04:18 PM

I'm in favor of this one rule

8. Winner will set up and judge next contest.

Once the winner does so, i would enter or not

Laurentiu Cristofor · 12-28-2011, 04:22 PM

Originally posted by Mike Cash

Why is that? Simply because we accumulate a bunch of stuff that we have casually shot in the spaces in between where we do our more serious stuff....things that were shot in a more "for personal consumption" P&S frame of mind, which pretty much made the type of camera used irrelevant. I don't care what kind of camera a guy is limited to, if he is going out with the specific purpose in mind of taking a killer shot to try to win a contest then no matter how compact the camera or how rudimentary its features or how undemanding its user interface....he can hardly be said to have been in a P&S frame of mind.

So you would want to eliminate anyone who doesn't use a P&S camera casually?!

That is brilliant! We could call it the "personal consumption" contest and every participant would judge their own photos and award their own prizes.

12-26-2011, 10:44 AM	#246
Anton Magus Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Durban, South Africa Photos: Gallery Posts: 410	As was pointed out earlier in this thread we seem to have broken into two groups. Group 1 is engaged in discussion about what constitutes a point and shoot camera, and I wish them luck with that, but it doesn't interest me. Group 2 is engaged in framing a set of rules for what is currently called the "Point and Shoot Contest". I am with this second group and my comments apply solely to that contest and its future rules. In suggesting rules for this competition I would suggest :- We change the name to the "Compact Camera Contest" so as to avoid getting caught up in the whole Point and Shoot versus Point and focus and shoot etc argument. The objective is to have a fun contest for photographers using cameras where depth of field is not optically viewable while taking the shot. The contest will be judged on the subject and composition rather than image quality. The Rules 1. Have Fun! 2. Allowed Cameras Digital Interchangeable lens cameras with sensors up to 1" (Includes Pentax Q and Nikon 1) Digital fixed lens cameras with sensors up to APS-C (Includes Fuji X100) Film Interchangeable lens cameras producing a negative up to 24 x18 Film fixed lens cameras up to medium format Cameras ineligible for the contests are:- Large format film cameras DSLRs or MILCs with Micro 4/3 or larger digital sensors SLRs taking 35mm or larger format film 3. Entries will close on ___________ 4. Maximum image dimensions are 1024x768 pixels. 5. List camera brand, model with entry for all to see. 6. THEME: ________________ 7. Max of 3 photographs per person. 8. Post processing is fine. 9. Contest winner agrees to use these rules, selects theme, sets closing date and judges next competition My own feeling is that this "discussion" has now gone on long enough with respect to the Compact Camera Competition. I believe most of the participants will be quite happy with these rules, including those who sometimes use film cameras but have been regular participants for a long time. The only issue which may be contentious is the limiting sensor size for ILCs - should it be 1" or 4/3? There seemed to be a majority for 1" but I am not phased if this is upped to 4/3. Overall I think these rules are fair for everyone who has previously entered these contests. They provide a reasonably level playing field. I would now suggest that we either introduce them in January for the next Compact Camera Contest (formerly known as the Point and Shoot Contest) OR We form a brand new contest called the Compact Camera Contest with these new rules while those who disagree with them and want to continue arguing, herding cats or run their own contest for pocket cameras or whatever they like, can do so on their own... How does everyone feel about that?

12-28-2011, 10:11 AM	#249
chubasco Pentaxian Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Alabama Photos: Gallery Posts: 328	I would like to see this particular contest go back to its original premise. There were two constants, that it be COMPACT and have a fixed lens. Originally, this was for Pentax compact cameras with small sensors and their 35mm counterparts. As time progressed other brands were welcomed, but it has now developed into this BIG. SWOLLEN. BLOATED. THING. Though I think I've entered pictures from 6x9 box cameras, all medium format really have no place here, as well as any sensors above 2/3". And of course, interchangeable lenses are completely out. There should be a contest for 1" sensors and above (haven't seen any Sigma DP1 and 2 pictures) that would include interchangeable lenses. Had the OP included the word COMPACT in his thread title, the arc of this discussion would have reached apogee several pages ago... Last edited by chubasco; 12-28-2011 at 10:45 AM.

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12-25-2011, 05:29 PM	#241
kyteflyer Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Newcastle, Australia Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,444	Originally posted by RioRico It never ends, eh? Consensus is impossible, eh? Like herding cats, eh? NOTE: I've herded cats. That's easier than getting consensus here. rofl... its easier to let the cats herd you. No consensus will be reached. I'm all for the most simplification possible. Compact digital cameras with sensors less than 1" Compact film cameras with fixed lenses. That would exclude large and medium format film cameras but allow 35mm film, as well as the old instamatic type (if you can still get the film for them). Hmm... otoh it would also include my old Zeiss which takes a rather large film (110? 125?) but its compact and has a fixed lens, albeit on a bellows thingy. Nope... no consensus will be reached... Originally posted by chubasco The all-pervasive/evergreen word should be [COMPACT]. I'm looking at a Yashica-A on my desk and no way in hell am I gonna cram it into one of my shirtpockets and walk around town, looking like some Amazon warrior. I wouldn't want to pack it in a roomy coat pocket for very long, either. If you have to do something else, walk in light... This about sums up my feelings. Last edited by kyteflyer; 12-25-2011 at 05:34 PM.

12-25-2011, 05:47 PM	#242
RioRico Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Limbo, California Posts: 11,263	Originally posted by kyteflyer Originally posted by chubasco: The all-pervasive/evergreen word should be [COMPACT]. I'm looking at a Yashica-A on my desk and no way in hell am I gonna cram it into one of my shirtpockets and walk around town, looking like some Amazon warrior. I wouldn't want to pack it in a roomy coat pocket for very long, either. This about sums up my feelings. There are different 'compacts' and different TLRs too. Some of the latter are just box.cams with waist-level VFs. Me mate's Kodak Brownie Twin 20 is like that. OTOH my dad's Argoflex E is a couple steps up from there, with full manual controls, and weighs less (670g) than a Yashica Electro GSN 35 rangefinder (690g) and Dad carried it stealthily for well over a decade -- it's only about as bulky as a C3 "The Brick" and weighs less. So while neither the Brownie Twin nor the Argoflex will fit in most shirt pockets, they can be stuffed into other convenient places. And yes, the secret to herding cats is to be herded by them. Rather, figure out where they're going, and make sure they get there. !No hay problemo!

12-25-2011, 07:49 PM	#243
unixrevolution Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Waldorf, MD Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,861 Original Poster	Originally posted by chubasco The all-pervasive/evergreen word should be [COMPACT]. I'm looking at a Yashica-A on my desk and no way in hell am I gonna cram it into one of my shirtpockets and walk around town, looking like some Amazon warrior. I wouldn't want to pack it in a roomy coat pocket for very long, either. If you have to do something else, walk in light... I think the biggest problem is that just like what constitutes a point and shoot is different to different people, the size and weight of a camera thats perfectly reasonable to tote everywhere differs too. I think my 635 is entirely reasonably sized. You apparently dont. I fought one war to get confronted with another, and it seems as though you all just want me to get fed up and leave, so im out. You win. Enjoy.

12-26-2011, 12:12 AM	#244
Laurentiu Cristofor Banned Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: WA Photos: Albums Posts: 3,055	Originally posted by unixrevolution Are there any other cameras you specifically know I use and enjoy that you'd like to ban? Huh? Does this sound like banning to you? Originally posted by Laurentiu Cristofor Let's just allow any film camera.

12-26-2011, 05:04 AM	#245
Bart Pentaxian Join Date: May 2007 Location: WW community of Pentax users Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,646	It would seem to me that there are two aims to this thread: - finding a consensus on what is a P&S - setting the rules for the future P&s contests. The first one seem rather unlikely to be reached during my life time. The second one is a bit theoretical since the rules of the P&S contest state the winner sets the rules... However, I'd like to make a suggetsion. How's this for a compromise: The Rules 1. Have Fun! 2. Cameras: Enter with whatever camera *you* consider a P&S () 3. Entries will close on ___________ 4. Maximum image dimensions are 1024x768 pixels. 5. List camera brand, model with entry for all to see. 6. THEME: ________________ 7. Max of 3 photographs per person. 8. Post processing is fine. 9. Contest winner selects theme, sets closing date and judges next competition () if you consider your Nex5, M9, your 645D, your 6x7 or whatever a P&S, be my guest.

12-26-2011, 11:21 AM	#247
Jacquot Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: May 2008 Location: Sun City Center, FL Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,544	Very interesting thread, although I've never submitted, I may in the future and have various cameras that would clearly fit this description. The contests must have gone successfully for a while without the controversy in the last 17 pages of threads, but as a new observer, I'd say go with it and start having fun! David

12-26-2011, 01:44 PM	#248
kyteflyer Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Newcastle, Australia Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,444	Originally posted by Anton Magus How does everyone feel about that? I'm just unsure about restricting or including by sensor size at all, now. Compact ought to be the operative word, not the sensor size. An Olympus PEN or Panasonic GF/GX with a pancake lens is going to be compact. And Olympus E or Panasonic GH is not. I dunno, its all just getting out of hand. Simplify it, make it about compact cameras.

12-28-2011, 01:01 PM	#250
ivoire Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Photos: Gallery Posts: 3,381	Originally posted by chubasco I would like to see this particular contest go back to its original premise.. Agree. If i were to win the december contest thats what i would do and allow the Q. People can just join in or not

12-28-2011, 01:09 PM	#251
kyteflyer Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Newcastle, Australia Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,444	Pentax compacts, yes. I have yet to acquire one, but I think I will. (I'd love to get one which only had 10 or 12MP but now, they all seem to have heaps more)

12-28-2011, 04:03 PM	#252
chubasco Pentaxian Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Alabama Photos: Gallery Posts: 328	I wouldn't make this Pentax-brand specific, you'd sideline a number of contestants. Our little contest is FUN, and it's natural people want to join in, even if their camera doesn't meet the criteria. Looking over the forum architecture, it's unfortunate there's no box to house contests. In this box could go DSLR/SLR, medium format film/digital, 1" sensors and above with/without interchangeable lenses, and <1" sensors with fixed lenses, including 35mm film (autofocus, zone focus, RF). All could be formatted the same way with monthly theme. This would completely end the fence-hopping.

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12-28-2011, 04:05 PM	#253
Mike Cash Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Japan Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,950	To throw a new curve ball into the discussion: I always was of the opinion that only photos pulled from one's pre-existing stash should be allowed in the contests, rather than photos taken specifically for the purpose of entering after the theme had been announced. Why is that? Simply because we accumulate a bunch of stuff that we have casually shot in the spaces in between where we do our more serious stuff....things that were shot in a more "for personal consumption" P&S frame of mind, which pretty much made the type of camera used irrelevant. I don't care what kind of camera a guy is limited to, if he is going out with the specific purpose in mind of taking a killer shot to try to win a contest then no matter how compact the camera or how rudimentary its features or how undemanding its user interface....he can hardly be said to have been in a P&S frame of mind. I'm actually sort of surprised this point has t been brought up before. And not having the slightest idea what sort of theme might be coming up would certainly encourage people to shoot a lot more stuff, don't you think? That would be the only way to ensure you had something to submit. The idea of casual shots done on an assignment basis always struck me as self-contradictory.

12-28-2011, 04:18 PM	#254
ivoire Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Photos: Gallery Posts: 3,381	I'm in favor of this one rule 8. Winner will set up and judge next contest. Once the winner does so, i would enter or not

12-28-2011, 04:22 PM	#255
Laurentiu Cristofor Banned Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: WA Photos: Albums Posts: 3,055	Originally posted by Mike Cash Why is that? Simply because we accumulate a bunch of stuff that we have casually shot in the spaces in between where we do our more serious stuff....things that were shot in a more "for personal consumption" P&S frame of mind, which pretty much made the type of camera used irrelevant. I don't care what kind of camera a guy is limited to, if he is going out with the specific purpose in mind of taking a killer shot to try to win a contest then no matter how compact the camera or how rudimentary its features or how undemanding its user interface....he can hardly be said to have been in a P&S frame of mind. So you would want to eliminate anyone who doesn't use a P&S camera casually?! That is brilliant! We could call it the "personal consumption" contest and every participant would judge their own photos and award their own prizes.