My thought: a mirrored "mirrorless“ design

feishui · 10-19-2011, 08:54 PM

I am one of those who are fans of the idea of small APS-C mirrorless body.

I found many people are complaining about NEX's giant lens in a thin body, but obviously to achieve the standard flange distance, you have to have either a thin body with a big lens or a thick body. Another option is a collapsible design, while I have seen many people on this board concerning about the building quality of such a collapsible hinge.

Yet another option is to have a completely new lens designed, like what Samsung has done with their NX series. They have made new pancakes with shorter flange distance. But this also comes with two problems: 1. The old lenses of pentax are no longer usable, which is one of the major reasons many people still stay with Pentax. 2. The edge IQ could be a concern because the angle of the incoming light will have to be much smaller to really reduce the thick.

I am not sure if anyone has discussed about this idea before. This is my design: A new mirror was added to reflect all the light from the lens to the sensor. The body in theory can be made as thin as the height of the sensor, which is 15.7mm for a APS-C sensor, or 24mm for a full-frame sensor! (The current dslr design allows minimal body thickness to be 45.46 mm for pentax). If my design is really achievable, then with a pancake installed we can really put this camera into our jeans pocket.

I think the major concern will be the quality of the mirror. It must be of very high quality. No distortion, very limited absorption of light. I don't know much about the engineering of mirrors, but as mirror lens could be made in very cheap price, my guess is a mirror camera is also doable.

Let me know your thoughts

Attached Images

RioRico · 10-19-2011, 10:13 PM

Very interesting idea! The problem that comes to mind is that the mirror must 1) be perfect, and 2) stay perfect. It's surface can't budge at all. Do stable-enough materials exist?

spmcrq · 10-19-2011, 10:23 PM

I had exactly the same idea, and had it discussed in some other forums, ppl suggested this a typical configuration used in some small DC and Panasonic G1 or GH1,can't remember the exact model, and one of the problem is that it is hard to put the image stabilization system to it.

feishui · 10-19-2011, 10:39 PM

Originally posted by spmcrq

I had exactly the same idea, and had it discussed in some other forums, ppl suggested this a typical configuration used in some small DC and Panasonic G1 or GH1,can't remember the exact model, and one of the problem is that it is hard to put the image stabilization system to it.

Good to know. Will be nice to see how this design works in other system. I just searched and seems panasonic G1/GH1 didn't use this design Panasonic Lumix DMC-GH1 Compact System Camera Optics - Full Review

torpesco · 10-19-2011, 11:03 PM

IIRC, it was a compact camera with 10x optical zoom that Panasonic came out with several years ago. I think around the time I got a Canon SD700 IS.

feishui · 10-19-2011, 11:17 PM

Originally posted by torpesco

IIRC, it was a compact camera with 10x optical zoom that Panasonic came out with several years ago. I think around the time I got a Canon SD700 IS.

IIRC, is this a camera model? I can't even google it

torpesco · 10-19-2011, 11:19 PM

Originally posted by feishui

IIRC, is this a camera model? I can't even google it

The Canon?

http://www.google.ca/m/search?q=sd700+is&pbx=1&aq=0&oq=sd700%2520i&aqi=g6-k1d0t0&fkt=2589&fsdt=17433&cqt=&rst=&htf=&his=&maction=&ltoken=df8681a8

torpesco · 10-19-2011, 11:22 PM

Originally posted by torpesco

IIRC, it was a compact camera with 10x optical zoom that Panasonic came out with several years ago. I think around the time I got a Canon SD700 IS.

Maybe the DMC TZ1? All I can find right now is a reference to it using "folded optics".

Kunzite · 10-19-2011, 11:23 PM

Sorry, but there are issues with this approach.
1. the idea itself - that you need a certain registration distance; while telephoto lenses won't complain, we'll have the same issues as with SLRs for wides, i.e. they will have to be retrofocus instead of simpler, much smaller, cheaper and better optical designs.
2. the design looks similar with a regular SLR, with few changes:
- the mirror is fixed (a smaller registration distance will be required)
- the sensor plane is located in viewfinder's place
- there is no optical TTL viewfinder, no secondary mirror for off the sensor PD-AF, no SLR-like metering system
I'm afraid the result will be in a mount with a registration distance only slightly shorter than for the K-mount.

I am certain G1 and GH1 don't use anything like this.

feishui · 10-19-2011, 11:51 PM

Originally posted by torpesco

Maybe the DMC TZ1? All I can find right now is a reference to it using "folded optics".

I found it. DMC TZ1 is using a fixed mirror. Interestingly, the mirror is part of the lens.

Panasonic Lumix DMC-TZ1

gazonk · 10-20-2011, 12:10 AM

Originally posted by feishui

I found it. DMC TZ1 is using a fixed mirror. Interestingly, the mirror is part of the lens.

Panasonic Lumix DMC-TZ1

Prism, not mirror. AFAIK, all the Pentax W-series cameras use a prism too.

tohax · 10-20-2011, 06:56 AM

this a mutual idea sharing. I hope pentax people from the HQ reading and monitoring this forums. paying attention to what the customers say. I personally have some new ideas to share with pentax.

photocanadian · 10-20-2011, 08:40 AM

That's more less how a Polaroid instant camera used to project an image before their photo paper became a rarity.

You could also add a prism on top and make the mirror semi-transparent (as part of the prism face) for TTL optical viewer functionality.

I guess I gotta run to the patent office now

...

Originally posted by feishui

I am one of those who are fans of the idea of small APS-C mirrorless body.

I found many people are complaining about NEX's giant lens in a thin body, but obviously to achieve the standard flange distance, you have to have either a thin body with a big lens or a thick body. Another option is a collapsible design, while I have seen many people on this board concerning about the building quality of such a collapsible hinge.

Yet another option is to have a completely new lens designed, like what Samsung has done with their NX series. They have made new pancakes with shorter flange distance. But this also comes with two problems: 1. The old lenses of pentax are no longer usable, which is one of the major reasons many people still stay with Pentax. 2. The edge IQ could be a concern because the angle of the incoming light will have to be much smaller to really reduce the thick.

I am not sure if anyone has discussed about this idea before. This is my design: A new mirror was added to reflect all the light from the lens to the sensor. The body in theory can be made as thin as the height of the sensor, which is 15.7mm for a APS-C sensor, or 24mm for a full-frame sensor! (The current dslr design allows minimal body thickness to be 45.46 mm for pentax). If my design is really achievable, then with a pancake installed we can really put this camera into our jeans pocket.

I think the major concern will be the quality of the mirror. It must be of very high quality. No distortion, very limited absorption of light. I don't know much about the engineering of mirrors, but as mirror lens could be made in very cheap price, my guess is a mirror camera is also doable.

Let me know your thoughts

wjjstu · 10-20-2011, 01:00 PM

Originally posted by feishui

I am one of those who are fans of the idea of small APS-C mirrorless body.

I found many people are complaining about NEX's giant lens in a thin body, but obviously to achieve the standard flange distance, you have to have either a thin body with a big lens or a thick body. Another option is a collapsible design, while I have seen many people on this board concerning about the building quality of such a collapsible hinge.

Yet another option is to have a completely new lens designed, like what Samsung has done with their NX series. They have made new pancakes with shorter flange distance. But this also comes with two problems: 1. The old lenses of pentax are no longer usable, which is one of the major reasons many people still stay with Pentax. 2. The edge IQ could be a concern because the angle of the incoming light will have to be much smaller to really reduce the thick.

I am not sure if anyone has discussed about this idea before. This is my design: A new mirror was added to reflect all the light from the lens to the sensor. The body in theory can be made as thin as the height of the sensor, which is 15.7mm for a APS-C sensor, or 24mm for a full-frame sensor! (The current dslr design allows minimal body thickness to be 45.46 mm for pentax). If my design is really achievable, then with a pancake installed we can really put this camera into our jeans pocket.

I think the major concern will be the quality of the mirror. It must be of very high quality. No distortion, very limited absorption of light. I don't know much about the engineering of mirrors, but as mirror lens could be made in very cheap price, my guess is a mirror camera is also doable.

Let me know your thoughts

Actually I have seen this here on this forum as a way of making a "thin" K-mount body.

spmcrq · 10-20-2011, 01:33 PM

Originally posted by feishui

Good to know. Will be nice to see how this design works in other system. I just searched and seems panasonic G1/GH1 didn't use this design Panasonic Lumix DMC-GH1 Compact System Camera Optics - Full Review

Hi, sorry for the misleading. I mixed this with my memory about the mirror structure in Oly E300/330, coz I got my idea from that structure.

I think if the technology of cmos AF used in nikon 1 is successful, and it can be applied to APS-C size sensor, then this configuration will be working.

10-19-2011, 08:54 PM	#1
feishui Forum Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Houston Posts: 94	My thought: a mirrored "mirrorless“ design I am one of those who are fans of the idea of small APS-C mirrorless body. I found many people are complaining about NEX's giant lens in a thin body, but obviously to achieve the standard flange distance, you have to have either a thin body with a big lens or a thick body. Another option is a collapsible design, while I have seen many people on this board concerning about the building quality of such a collapsible hinge. Yet another option is to have a completely new lens designed, like what Samsung has done with their NX series. They have made new pancakes with shorter flange distance. But this also comes with two problems: 1. The old lenses of pentax are no longer usable, which is one of the major reasons many people still stay with Pentax. 2. The edge IQ could be a concern because the angle of the incoming light will have to be much smaller to really reduce the thick. I am not sure if anyone has discussed about this idea before. This is my design: A new mirror was added to reflect all the light from the lens to the sensor. The body in theory can be made as thin as the height of the sensor, which is 15.7mm for a APS-C sensor, or 24mm for a full-frame sensor! (The current dslr design allows minimal body thickness to be 45.46 mm for pentax). If my design is really achievable, then with a pancake installed we can really put this camera into our jeans pocket. I think the major concern will be the quality of the mirror. It must be of very high quality. No distortion, very limited absorption of light. I don't know much about the engineering of mirrors, but as mirror lens could be made in very cheap price, my guess is a mirror camera is also doable. Let me know your thoughts Attached Images

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10-19-2011, 10:13 PM	#2
RioRico Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Limbo, California Posts: 11,263	Very interesting idea! The problem that comes to mind is that the mirror must 1) be perfect, and 2) stay perfect. It's surface can't budge at all. Do stable-enough materials exist?

10-19-2011, 10:23 PM	#3
spmcrq New Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Auckland Posts: 16	I had exactly the same idea, and had it discussed in some other forums, ppl suggested this a typical configuration used in some small DC and Panasonic G1 or GH1,can't remember the exact model, and one of the problem is that it is hard to put the image stabilization system to it.

10-19-2011, 10:39 PM	#4
feishui Forum Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Houston Posts: 94 Original Poster	Originally posted by spmcrq I had exactly the same idea, and had it discussed in some other forums, ppl suggested this a typical configuration used in some small DC and Panasonic G1 or GH1,can't remember the exact model, and one of the problem is that it is hard to put the image stabilization system to it. Good to know. Will be nice to see how this design works in other system. I just searched and seems panasonic G1/GH1 didn't use this design Panasonic Lumix DMC-GH1 Compact System Camera Optics - Full Review

10-19-2011, 11:03 PM	#5
torpesco Forum Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 87	IIRC, it was a compact camera with 10x optical zoom that Panasonic came out with several years ago. I think around the time I got a Canon SD700 IS.

10-19-2011, 11:17 PM	#6
feishui Forum Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Houston Posts: 94 Original Poster	Originally posted by torpesco IIRC, it was a compact camera with 10x optical zoom that Panasonic came out with several years ago. I think around the time I got a Canon SD700 IS. IIRC, is this a camera model? I can't even google it

10-19-2011, 11:19 PM	#7
torpesco Forum Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 87	Originally posted by feishui IIRC, is this a camera model? I can't even google it The Canon? http://www.google.ca/m/search?q=sd700+is&pbx=1&aq=0&oq=sd700%2520i&aqi=g6-k1d0t0&fkt=2589&fsdt=17433&cqt=&rst=&htf=&his=&maction=&ltoken=df8681a8

10-19-2011, 11:22 PM	#8
torpesco Forum Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 87	Originally posted by torpesco IIRC, it was a compact camera with 10x optical zoom that Panasonic came out with several years ago. I think around the time I got a Canon SD700 IS. Maybe the DMC TZ1? All I can find right now is a reference to it using "folded optics".

10-19-2011, 11:23 PM	#9
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	Sorry, but there are issues with this approach. 1. the idea itself - that you need a certain registration distance; while telephoto lenses won't complain, we'll have the same issues as with SLRs for wides, i.e. they will have to be retrofocus instead of simpler, much smaller, cheaper and better optical designs. 2. the design looks similar with a regular SLR, with few changes: - the mirror is fixed (a smaller registration distance will be required) - the sensor plane is located in viewfinder's place - there is no optical TTL viewfinder, no secondary mirror for off the sensor PD-AF, no SLR-like metering system I'm afraid the result will be in a mount with a registration distance only slightly shorter than for the K-mount. I am certain G1 and GH1 don't use anything like this.

10-19-2011, 11:51 PM	#10
feishui Forum Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Houston Posts: 94 Original Poster	Originally posted by torpesco Maybe the DMC TZ1? All I can find right now is a reference to it using "folded optics". I found it. DMC TZ1 is using a fixed mirror. Interestingly, the mirror is part of the lens. Panasonic Lumix DMC-TZ1

10-20-2011, 12:10 AM	#11
gazonk Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Oslo area, Norway Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,746	Originally posted by feishui I found it. DMC TZ1 is using a fixed mirror. Interestingly, the mirror is part of the lens. Panasonic Lumix DMC-TZ1 Prism, not mirror. AFAIK, all the Pentax W-series cameras use a prism too.

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10-20-2011, 06:56 AM	#12
tohax Forum Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Jakarta Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 69	this a mutual idea sharing. I hope pentax people from the HQ reading and monitoring this forums. paying attention to what the customers say. I personally have some new ideas to share with pentax.

10-20-2011, 08:40 AM	#13
photocanadian Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: capital city, the land of eh (Ottawa, Canada) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 329	That's more less how a Polaroid instant camera used to project an image before their photo paper became a rarity. You could also add a prism on top and make the mirror semi-transparent (as part of the prism face) for TTL optical viewer functionality. I guess I gotta run to the patent office now ... Originally posted by feishui I am one of those who are fans of the idea of small APS-C mirrorless body. I found many people are complaining about NEX's giant lens in a thin body, but obviously to achieve the standard flange distance, you have to have either a thin body with a big lens or a thick body. Another option is a collapsible design, while I have seen many people on this board concerning about the building quality of such a collapsible hinge. Yet another option is to have a completely new lens designed, like what Samsung has done with their NX series. They have made new pancakes with shorter flange distance. But this also comes with two problems: 1. The old lenses of pentax are no longer usable, which is one of the major reasons many people still stay with Pentax. 2. The edge IQ could be a concern because the angle of the incoming light will have to be much smaller to really reduce the thick. I am not sure if anyone has discussed about this idea before. This is my design: A new mirror was added to reflect all the light from the lens to the sensor. The body in theory can be made as thin as the height of the sensor, which is 15.7mm for a APS-C sensor, or 24mm for a full-frame sensor! (The current dslr design allows minimal body thickness to be 45.46 mm for pentax). If my design is really achievable, then with a pancake installed we can really put this camera into our jeans pocket. I think the major concern will be the quality of the mirror. It must be of very high quality. No distortion, very limited absorption of light. I don't know much about the engineering of mirrors, but as mirror lens could be made in very cheap price, my guess is a mirror camera is also doable. Let me know your thoughts

10-20-2011, 01:00 PM	#14
wjjstu Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 181	Originally posted by feishui I am one of those who are fans of the idea of small APS-C mirrorless body. I found many people are complaining about NEX's giant lens in a thin body, but obviously to achieve the standard flange distance, you have to have either a thin body with a big lens or a thick body. Another option is a collapsible design, while I have seen many people on this board concerning about the building quality of such a collapsible hinge. Yet another option is to have a completely new lens designed, like what Samsung has done with their NX series. They have made new pancakes with shorter flange distance. But this also comes with two problems: 1. The old lenses of pentax are no longer usable, which is one of the major reasons many people still stay with Pentax. 2. The edge IQ could be a concern because the angle of the incoming light will have to be much smaller to really reduce the thick. I am not sure if anyone has discussed about this idea before. This is my design: A new mirror was added to reflect all the light from the lens to the sensor. The body in theory can be made as thin as the height of the sensor, which is 15.7mm for a APS-C sensor, or 24mm for a full-frame sensor! (The current dslr design allows minimal body thickness to be 45.46 mm for pentax). If my design is really achievable, then with a pancake installed we can really put this camera into our jeans pocket. I think the major concern will be the quality of the mirror. It must be of very high quality. No distortion, very limited absorption of light. I don't know much about the engineering of mirrors, but as mirror lens could be made in very cheap price, my guess is a mirror camera is also doable. Let me know your thoughts Actually I have seen this here on this forum as a way of making a "thin" K-mount body.

10-20-2011, 01:33 PM	#15
spmcrq New Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Auckland Posts: 16	Originally posted by feishui Good to know. Will be nice to see how this design works in other system. I just searched and seems panasonic G1/GH1 didn't use this design Panasonic Lumix DMC-GH1 Compact System Camera Optics - Full Review Hi, sorry for the misleading. I mixed this with my memory about the mirror structure in Oly E300/330, coz I got my idea from that structure. I think if the technology of cmos AF used in nikon 1 is successful, and it can be applied to APS-C size sensor, then this configuration will be working.