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12-04-2011, 05:16 PM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by ivoire Quote
Chubasco... thanks for the comment and correction... math is not my strong suit!
Sorry for the confusion. Maybe the image in this article will help:

Image sensor format - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

1/1.7" is the largest digital sensor I know in compact cameras. The Nikon 1 CX sensor is the next largest one, but that would be disallowed because of the interchangeable lenses anyway. I just wanted to take out of the contest cameras like the X100.

QuoteOriginally posted by unixrevolution Quote
Film cameras not allowed?!

Nuts to this.

EDIT: I don't know what I did to piss you guys off so badly, but I apologize.
Were you using one? I didn't notice or I thought the name referred to a digital one. I didn't target anyone with my rule change.

The reason I changed the rules is because to me this contest is interesting for comparing what we can obtain from similar technology. Today, all compact cameras use small sensors and as a result they are limited in DOF control and low light performance. We have endless discussions about the benefit of FF sensors and how APS sensors are limited in comparison. Film technology, on the other side, doesn't seem to suffer from this issue - both DSLRs and P&S cameras were made to use the same 135mm film. Sure, there were some smaller format film P&S, but since I haven't noticed much film use in this part of the forum, I thought it is simpler to just disallow film cameras completely than to describe the film size that should be allowed to match the sensor size restriction on the digital counterparts. That is pretty much my thinking behind the change of rules and I didn't think anyone would be affected by excluding film cameras.

12-04-2011, 05:20 PM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by chubasco Quote
Ivoire, no problem, I have my senior moments, too. I was looking at the
specs of the Olympus XZ-1 (a future purchase) and it wouldn't make it at
1/1.63.
Well, I missed the weird XZ-1 sensor size. Let me adjust the rules to allow it.
12-04-2011, 05:56 PM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by ivoire Quote
I will have to bow out. Read the 1/1.7 rule, looked up the Samsung and it is 1/2.4. See you in the next competition... maybe. Have fun and enjoy the holidays!
1/2.4 is a smaller sensor. As the numbers get higher, after a 1/.. the sensor gets smaller.

I'm a bit concerned that the new fuji X10 will be excluded from the competition. I don't have one, but there may be someone who does. Its sensor is 2/3. I think restricting by sensor size should be by specifying no APS sized sensors, rather than specifying a number, its too confusing for some ppl. To wit, those who are withdrawing because they think their sensor is too big.

In the case of ivoire, or me (with an xz at 1/1.63) its not. Its actually smaller than the specified size, so is the 1/1.7 of the canon/nikon/ricoh lot.
12-04-2011, 06:07 PM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by Laurentiu Cristofor Quote

1/1.7" is the largest digital sensor I know in compact cameras. The Nikon 1 CX sensor is the next largest one, but that would be disallowed because of the interchangeable lenses anyway. I just wanted to take out of the contest cameras like the X100.
2/3 is actually the next largest, its the Fuji X-10 and it is in the graphic.

Also, you'll note I havent submitted any x100 shots since that lengthy discussion (where I withdrew the one I had submitted, anyway, so its never actually been used for this competition)

12-04-2011, 06:15 PM   #20
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So i just had to look to try and get a handle on this. Looks like the Fujux10 is 1/1.6. Jump in Fuji owners! (i think). The Samsung is tiny but i'm getting great images from it.

Last edited by ivoire; 12-04-2011 at 06:21 PM.
12-04-2011, 06:25 PM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by kyteflyer Quote
2/3 is actually the next largest, its the Fuji X-10 and it is in the graphic.

Also, you'll note I havent submitted any x100 shots since that lengthy discussion (where I withdrew the one I had submitted, anyway, so its never actually been used for this competition)
We can make 2/3" the limit - compared to regular compacts it seems like a FF to an APS sensor - not a huge difference in my opinion. I just think a limit should exist. If anyone has an X10 that they want to make submissions with, I'll update the rules to spell 2/3". That wikipedia chart has been updated quite a bit recently, what with all these weird sensor sizes being introduced on the market.

If nothing else, at least this rule change will make us learn the small sensor sizes

On the X100, I just remember that some other people thought of it as being a P&S in other threads - so I didn't have you in mind specifically.
12-04-2011, 06:26 PM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by ivoire Quote
Looks like the Fujux10 is 1/1.6.
It's 2/3" according to the site that shall not be named on this forum.
12-04-2011, 06:38 PM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by Laurentiu Cristofor Quote
It's 2/3" according to the site that shall not be named on this forum.
You won and get to make the rules plus i get the level the field notion. I'm fine with whatever the winner (You) of the competition decides. That said, I do like the 'more the merrier' and would allow film for that reason.

12-04-2011, 09:14 PM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by Laurentiu Cristofor Quote
We can make 2/3" the limit - compared to regular compacts it seems like a FF to an APS sensor - not a huge difference in my opinion. I just think a limit should exist....
Agreed. That Nikon is an ILC as well, so is the Pentax Q which is a 1/2.3 sensor. It all gets so complicated. Your rules generally have uncomplicated it.
12-04-2011, 10:25 PM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by Laurentiu Cristofor Quote
Sorry for the confusion. Maybe the image in this article will help:

Image sensor format - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

1/1.7" is the largest digital sensor I know in compact cameras. The Nikon 1 CX sensor is the next largest one, but that would be disallowed because of the interchangeable lenses anyway. I just wanted to take out of the contest cameras like the X100.

Were you using one? I didn't notice or I thought the name referred to a digital one. I didn't target anyone with my rule change.

The reason I changed the rules is because to me this contest is interesting for comparing what we can obtain from similar technology. Today, all compact cameras use small sensors and as a result they are limited in DOF control and low light performance. We have endless discussions about the benefit of FF sensors and how APS sensors are limited in comparison. Film technology, on the other side, doesn't seem to suffer from this issue - both DSLRs and P&S cameras were made to use the same 135mm film. Sure, there were some smaller format film P&S, but since I haven't noticed much film use in this part of the forum, I thought it is simpler to just disallow film cameras completely than to describe the film size that should be allowed to match the sensor size restriction on the digital counterparts. That is pretty much my thinking behind the change of rules and I didn't think anyone would be affected by excluding film cameras.
As long as I have been participating in this Point and Shoot contest, the rules have allowed film cameras. Even though I didn't use a film camera in this, or the last one, I have used them in the past. I have used many, many film cameras in the past, as well as my share of digitals. I have used my Optio A40 recently because I usually carry a Large Format camera, rather than a 35mm non-SLR, so it was either that or the phone, since the A40 is always with me, and it will likely always be my sidearm camera for when I'm not specifically carrying anything else. In contests past I have used 35mm rangefinder and zone-focus cameras, and I rallied for MONTHS to get medium-format Box/Folding/Holga cameras allowed on the basis that they are point and shoots, and was finally met with consent. I redid the rules when the point and shoot contest came to me to reflect, as concisely as I could manage, the rules changes we all kind of agreed on. Yes, I know, as the contest winner you get to make the rules, but I did put in a serious amount of effort, arguing for my cause, before the ice broke and I got people to agree with me. To those of you who felt sorry for me or saw the wisdom in what I was saying, I think I still owe you a debt of thanks.

I think, though, that judging a camera as a point and shoot or not based purely on its sensor size is folly, and judging a film camera to be superior to a digital based purely on its frame size is equally so. Point and shoot is much more a function of usage and control than it is of purely sensor size. A Holga has a "sensor" dozens of times larger than a typical point and shoot digital camera, but I'd consider the Point and Shoot superior in every way.

This is why we had long discussions, including my "What is, and is not, a point and shoot" thread, about the nature of point and shoot cameras. I believe, and I think rightly so, that sensor size is not all there is to wether a point and shoot is a point and shoot. For instance, you say you have no depth of field control with a small sensor. Well, on a scale-focus 120 camera, you don't either! Many of these cameras have extremely limited apertures (f/8 wide open...) and rudimentary scale-focus, which you can't trust for shallow DoF shots. Not only that, but many of these cameras used large film to overcome the inherent limitations of the optics to produce a sharp image. A medium format camera from 1917 like my Kodak Autographic Brownie No. 2 that I used for the "Night Shots" contest used a 6x8cm film frame, but couldn't be relied upon to make bigger than an 8x10 enlargement with any sharpness because it has pretty crappy optics.

It is NOT about frame size, it is about focusing accuracy, exposure control, and challenging the photographer to work within limitations. The current rules, as you've rewritten them, don't exclude pro-level cameras like the Canon PowerShot G12. If the rules state that a Canon PowerShot G12 with its 1/1.7 sensor, but ISO dial, exposure comp, manual exposure, manual focus, live view, etc, IS a point and shoot, but a Kodak Funsaver disposable camera with only one physical control is NOT a point and shoot, I have to take serious issue with that.

I have used my digitals before, and have used my A40 almost exclusively for months, mostly for lack of opportunity to use my film cameras. Excluding such a wide range of fun cameras from use in this contest in an effort to simplify the rules seems backwards to me, and though I can always grab my digital, I believe most of my best work is done on film. That's why I haven't so much as placed in the past six months, while i've been digital only, and why I didn't even rate so much as a mention in last month's contest.

Frankly, I like the idea of being able to use my film cameras for these. I also know I'm not the only user to do so, at least not as far back as the Black and White contest (Where at least one other person shot film). I just don't think excluding the film cameras is a good idea, but it IS your choice, just as it's my choice whether or not I want to participate. I just don't think excluding film cameras on the basis of "simplifying the rules" is all that good a move. But I'm probably the only one here who cares.

QuoteOriginally posted by Bart Quote
I'm sorry to see film cameras are gone but I do believe the general consensus is that the winner sets the rules for the contest. They can indeed always be changed in the next one.

Erik, this might be an extra motivation? You do have a an Optio A40, don't you?
Judging by the relative lack of acclaim for my more recent images, I don't hold out much hope for my winning so I can switch the rules back to allow film. If I do win, though, look out for the changes. I think "Camera cannot use batteries" is a pretty fun rule, don't you?

QuoteOriginally posted by ivoire Quote
You won and get to make the rules plus i get the level the field notion. I'm fine with whatever the winner (You) of the competition decides. That said, I do like the 'more the merrier' and would allow film for that reason.
It is the judge's party, and he gets to say what counts. I just don't like it. I've said what needs to be said, and either he will see my side and change or he won't. Either way, I think now I've really banged on about this too much, and I won't spend another wasted word trying to get people not to turn their backs on over a century of photographic history. If this is to be a digital only party, that's fine. I'll just go shoot Large Format, and console myself with the smell of photo-sensitive acetate sheets.
12-04-2011, 10:48 PM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by unixrevolution Quote
...
It is NOT about frame size, it is about focusing accuracy, exposure control, and challenging the photographer to work within limitations. The current rules, as you've rewritten them, don't exclude pro-level cameras like the Canon PowerShot G12. If the rules state that a Canon PowerShot G12 with its 1/1.7 sensor, but ISO dial, exposure comp, manual exposure, manual focus, live view, etc, IS a point and shoot, but a Kodak Funsaver disposable camera with only one physical control is NOT a point and shoot, I have to take serious issue with that.
Erik, you've made some excellent points here. The camera I was planning to use (an XZ1) also has pro level controls. In fact I don't think I have a camera now, that doesnt. All of my compacts have A/S/M controls, even my very elderly Olympus C760-uz 3.2Mp with a 1/2.5 sensor and the capacity to shoot as TIFF.

Also, I have gone and bought battery and film for my compact Espio 738 and won't now be able to use that for this comp. Oh well. Moving right along... sighh..
12-05-2011, 12:01 AM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by kyteflyer Quote
Erik, you've made some excellent points here. The camera I was planning to use (an XZ1) also has pro level controls. In fact I don't think I have a camera now, that doesnt. All of my compacts have A/S/M controls, even my very elderly Olympus C760-uz 3.2Mp with a 1/2.5 sensor and the capacity to shoot as TIFF.

Also, I have gone and bought battery and film for my compact Espio 738 and won't now be able to use that for this comp. Oh well. Moving right along... sighh..
Shall we simply avoid the hand-wringing and such, and split off a Film-only P&S contest for the 2 and a half of us who want to participate?
12-05-2011, 02:12 AM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by unixrevolution Quote
This is why we had long discussions, including my "What is, and is not, a point and shoot" thread, about the nature of point and shoot cameras.
Yes, but the only conclusion of that discussion is that we couldn't come to any conclusion. Everyone had arguments for their opinion of what makes a P&S. In the end, if we want rules to not change, we should first change the rule that says that the winner can change the rules. But this should be done on a separate thread. I will just adjust the rules of this particular iteration of the contest to keep with the spirit in which I set them: to be easy to understand (looks like I botched that) and to restrict the cameras allowed to those with fixed lens and small sensor size. But now it's time for the contest to continue and I can just assure you that I'll point this controversy to the winner with the request to consider reversing the rules to the old ones.
12-05-2011, 05:12 AM   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by Laurentiu Cristofor Quote
Yes, but the only conclusion of that discussion is that we couldn't come to any conclusion. Everyone had arguments for their opinion of what makes a P&S. In the end, if we want rules to not change, we should first change the rule that says that the winner can change the rules. But this should be done on a separate thread. I will just adjust the rules of this particular iteration of the contest to keep with the spirit in which I set them: to be easy to understand (looks like I botched that) and to restrict the cameras allowed to those with fixed lens and small sensor size. But now it's time for the contest to continue and I can just assure you that I'll point this controversy to the winner with the request to consider reversing the rules to the old ones.
Your rules are very easy to understand. I just dont agree with them, as i think the elimination of film in this way is exclusionary and unnecessary, and not necessarily in the spirit of the contest as it was established. But do as you like. The discussion is over, for good or ill. Ill just check back next month and see if the rules are more favorable towards the cameras i actually want to use, rather than the camera i just happen to carry everywhere.
12-05-2011, 12:22 PM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by chubasco Quote
Yeah, I really like Ivoire's BW treatment, too.

Bart, really like 2 and 3 in your set, pretty early in the game to shoot your
whole wad, though. Just kidding.
Thanks, chubasco!
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