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06-25-2008, 10:19 PM   #16
and
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Yes ricoh seems to do a lot of stuff right when it comes to usability/ergonomics/features, ironically they get right what sigma got wrong and the other way around. put the sensor from the dp1 in a ricoh body and we would be getting somewhere.

06-26-2008, 06:37 PM   #17
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we have a Ricoh GX so know where you're coming from regarding useability. Recently I've been printing pics taken with it and some of them look pretty bad (noise wise) on the screen but printed look quite good. Note that these are only 6x4" prints.

So, I'm amazed a manufacturer hasn't tried a decent sensor in a compact with manual control. Many people with DSLR's would buy one.

BTW, I still want an optical viewfinder in my p&s.
06-26-2008, 10:26 PM   #18
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someone will listen

[
I have now all but given up on my dream compact camera.


Rumors are that fuji is putting a 6mp super ccd in an e series body. I think this would suffice as a perfect pocket camera is done right. My e900 is close as it is - low noise up to iso 400, full manual controls, raw mode, quick jpg operation. The a30 is incredible -in good light but not so much in low light.
06-28-2008, 01:14 AM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by Art Vandelay II Quote
I gotta disagree; this Ricoh is a $600 pocket camera that has no better image quality than $250 Pentax Optio A40. The only thing it has going for it is a ultra tough metal body, with full manual controls, dual control wheels, hot shoe, etc...in other words, features that only hardcore enthusiast care about...

Unfortunately for Ricoh they just don't seem to get it. They make a camera that is obviously aimed at serious enthusiast, yet fall prey to the same small sensor P&S megapixel race you see all over the shelves at Best Buy. All they would have had to do to make their target audience jump for joy is put a simple 6 megapixel APS-C sensor in it and redesign the lens to fit. The people buying this camera will understand a 6-8 megapixel APS-C sensor will blow away the 1/1.7 12 megapixel piece of crap they're currently using. Even if using such a sensor added $100 to the price I would be willing to bet they'd still sell more.
You ignore the two biggest (for me at least) things that the Ricoh has going for it, and at least one isn't a niche feature at all... that would be the 24-72 equiv. lens. THAT is the lens (or focal length rather) that I want pon whatever pocket camera I eventually buy. The other, also a must for me, is RAW acquisition.

I don't think they needed a 6mp APS sensor, they just needed a 6mp sensor. I want a small camera, and for that, the compromise I'm willing to make is a tiny sensor. Depth of field be damned. The compromise I'm not willing to make is noise and image quality, and cramming 12MP on such a small sensor asks for exactly that compromise.

I've said for two years now: 6MP is all I need from a compact, because 6MP makes for great 4x6s and that's all I'd want from a compact. So meet that minimum with good image quality, RAW acquisition, and a lens that begins at 24mm and you'll sell me, and I wager many, many more.

-W

PS: My other favorite feature of the GX cams, and this is just a "dumb niche" feature, is that you can disable the zoom and use it as a "variable prime" that stops only at 24, 35, 50, and 72. So close to the classic 24/35/50/85 kit I used to love. Ergonomics like that are a nice touch.

06-28-2008, 07:09 AM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by Art Vandelay II Quote
Ricoh just announced and "upgrade" to the Caplio GX100.

Ricoh Caplio GX-200: Digital Photography Review

I have now all but given up on my dream compact camera. Seriously, 12 freaking megapixels on a 1 to 1/7 size sensor!!!! Ugh. Why is it so difficult for these manufactures to make a compact with a decent size sensor? Did they forget that there were plenty of pocket camera's back in the 35mm film days? Sure, they weren't as small as today's micro-size P&S camera's, but they were small enough for an enthusiast. Ricoh has the PERFECT body for a compact camera with their Caplio line. For the love of the Flying Spaghetti Monster why can't they just buy up some 6 or 8 megapixel APS-C sensors for cheap and build a body/lens to handle the larger sensor?

If anyone at Pentax reads these forums will you please come to the rescue. We've had digital camera's for a decade now and no one other than Sigma has attempted to make a pocket camera that can realistically be used at over ISO 200. This is getting ridiculous.
Sony made one of these cameras, the DSC-R1. It had an almost APS-C sized sensor. It wasn't as low in noise as the DSLR cameras but it was an encouraging first step. Its zoom lens made it an almost DSLR sized camera, not very pocketable. The Sigma DP-1 is an encouraging first step towards a pocketable camera with an almost APS-C sized sensor. Apparently many users are looking for a Sigma DP-1 sized camera with a zoom lens and an APS-C sized sensor, kind of like the old Olympus Stylus 35mm film cameras of yesteryears.

http://i13.ebayimg.com/01/c/06/57/d4/47_8.JPG

If and when Olympus folds up its tent on DSLR cameras, it could probably start a new trend by stuffing one of its 4/3 sensors into an Olympus Stylus film camera bodies and make lots of money. And then other camera makers will follow suit. Japanese camera makers mostly copy each other. Very few of them are innovative.
06-28-2008, 07:44 AM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by wiyum Quote
You ignore the two biggest (for me at least) things that the Ricoh has going for it, and at least one isn't a niche feature at all... that would be the 24-72 equiv. lens. THAT is the lens (or focal length rather) that I want pon whatever pocket camera I eventually buy. The other, also a must for me, is RAW acquisition.

I don't think they needed a 6mp APS sensor, they just needed a 6mp sensor. I want a small camera, and for that, the compromise I'm willing to make is a tiny sensor. Depth of field be damned. The compromise I'm not willing to make is noise and image quality, and cramming 12MP on such a small sensor asks for exactly that compromise.

I've said for two years now: 6MP is all I need from a compact, because 6MP makes for great 4x6s and that's all I'd want from a compact. So meet that minimum with good image quality, RAW acquisition, and a lens that begins at 24mm and you'll sell me, and I wager many, many more.

-W

PS: My other favorite feature of the GX cams, and this is just a "dumb niche" feature, is that you can disable the zoom and use it as a "variable prime" that stops only at 24, 35, 50, and 72. So close to the classic 24/35/50/85 kit I used to love. Ergonomics like that are a nice touch.
Hi, Wiyum!

Actually 6Mp is overkill for 4 x 6 and 5 x 7 and it borders A4 @300 dpi. For a 5 x 7 @ 300 dpi you will roughly need 3 Mp. Of course the marketing guys will gladly tell you such a camera today will sell in hundreds or thousends max. But I am 110% with you when you say 5-6 Mp could be the magical number for a 1/1.x sensor made with today's technology. Add a very good lens with a modest x zoom and you will get a very decent pocketable camera ... which won't sell at all with the Mp onslought that every mfgr makes and every sales guy tries to cram up your ... let's say neck.

Sigma DP 1 is another sad story of a great idea gone bad by lack of resources (e.g. procesing power) and funding. But with all it's flaws it really makes superb shots and I only hope they will refine the design in time. It also is selling pretty well for Sigma so much so that the rumour has it the lines for DSLR are pretty much switched to DP1.

Radu
06-28-2008, 08:50 AM   #22
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My first digital was a 2 megapixel Fuji finepix2650 that takes great shots and I still use it from time to time. I have made 8x10 prints that look ok. The megapixel thing reminds me of the clock speed insanity of the Pentium 4 computers. They got faster and faster chips but didn't perform much better and used more electricity than the refrigerator. If you notice, they now don't even mention clock speed of chips any more. The newer chips have much slower speeds but perform much faster due to a better design.
06-28-2008, 10:11 AM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by reeftool Quote
My first digital was a 2 megapixel Fuji finepix2650 that takes great shots and I still use it from time to time. I have made 8x10 prints that look ok. The megapixel thing reminds me of the clock speed insanity of the Pentium 4 computers. They got faster and faster chips but didn't perform much better and used more electricity than the refrigerator. If you notice, they now don't even mention clock speed of chips any more. The newer chips have much slower speeds but perform much faster due to a better design.
Reeftool, as an IT guy I totaly concur with what you said. The difference though is that Intel realised that the megahertz race was ultimately bad for its own image and switched sooner rather than latter. Of course AMD's fine designs of the time helped too. It was funny to see the first C2D procs @1,83 GHz rutinely smoking Pentium 4s above 3.2 GHz and of course current designs are even better. Here we have a mass hysteria amond ALL the p&s camera mfgr without one single clearer mind to introduce sensors with less Mp and better noise, DR and so forth. Fujifilm tried something in the past and it wasn't a big comercial succes even though the likes of F30 were damn good cameras.

Radu

06-30-2008, 08:38 AM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by wiyum Quote
PS: My other favorite feature of the GX cams, and this is just a "dumb niche" feature, is that you can disable the zoom and use it as a "variable prime" that stops only at 24, 35, 50, and 72. So close to the classic 24/35/50/85 kit I used to love. Ergonomics like that are a nice touch.
That would also be ideal for me, I would even be happy with a lens that does nothing but stop in three positions, 24mm, 50mm, and 70mm. Another nice touch, although not a necessity if it's going to raise the price too much, would be a small DA40-like manual focus ring on the base of the lens.


QuoteOriginally posted by Anastigmat Quote
Sony made one of these cameras, the DSC-R1. It had an almost APS-C sized sensor. It wasn't as low in noise as the DSLR cameras but it was an encouraging first step. Its zoom lens made it an almost DSLR sized camera, not very pocketable.
The bold part was it's fatal flaw. What exactly is the point of a camera with a non-detachable lens if it won't fit in a pocket? Might as well just get a DSLR unless you can save a bundle by getting the former.
07-17-2008, 05:28 PM   #25
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What's really sad is that I can go to KEH.com or even the marketplace here and pick up an older DSLR body (K100, DS, etc.) for a good bit less than one of the higher-end P&S's (Canon G9, etc.) and get the full APS-C sized sensor and better performance. Last time I checked, KEH has a DS body for $245. If I didn't have other priorities ahead of getting another body, I'd be very tempted to snatch it up for that price.

I know that some people suggest the Olympus E-420 with the 25mm pancake as an option, but I'd really rather not have to deal with 2 DSLR systems. It would make a lot more sense to pick up a DS and a small inexpensive 28 and you'd also have the advantage of being able to use the rest of your Pentax lenses with it, should you desire to.

Just my 2 cents...
Heather
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