Mechanical Sensor Stabilisation During Video - I Want It Back...

metaphiston · 12-04-2014, 04:51 AM - **1 Like**

It might not be much, but I did email Ricoh to say how much I liked mechanical SR in the k-5 and how I was disappointed to not see it in the k-3. I mailed their general enquiries for the UK and they replied to say they would forward o the relevant department. If you want to do something about it, however small, do the same.

grispie · 12-04-2014, 05:15 AM

funny,

this is Dpreview's assessment on pentax video IS in the K3:

"The camera does offer sensor shift-based shake reduction (Movie SR) during video capture. We've been pretty impressed with how steady the results are, and haven't seen any of the odd psychedelic warping that can occur when rolling shutter combines with digital correction."

Steve.Ledger · 12-04-2014, 12:43 PM

Yep I read that and rolled my eyes. DPreview (Mr Butler) can't be trusted to be accurate.

TomGarn · 12-07-2014, 10:02 AM

Yes and nobody can be trusted who still puts his trust in Pentax.
I am out and will not come back to Pentax. Finished !

marq · 12-07-2014, 11:21 AM - **1 Like**

Ever since Pentax disabled mechanical SR in Movie mode I have been waiting for any company to bring out 5-axis IBIS on a sensor larger than that of the Olympus OM-D E5 and EM-1. I would have gone with Oly but their very limited frame rate, codec and low-light capabilities deterred me. It's just not usable in a professional setting.

Now Sony brought the A7 II to market and on paper it was THE answer, but seeing Andrew Reid's first hands on test obviously shows their IBIS is not up to par with either the EM-1 or the K-5.

For that reason I STILL shoot with the K-5 for handheld work, and in the right light and with the right handling it still produces top quality footage.
SO unless SONY address the shortcomings on the A7 II IBIS, or release an A7s II with a properly functions stabilisation, I might actually pick up a K5 II for the time being. Pentax had something very good with it, and should they venture into FF, they really should bring it back, even on a K-3 II.

Steve.Ledger · 12-07-2014, 02:31 PM

Originally posted by marq

Now Sony brought the A7 II to market and on paper it was THE answer, but seeing Andrew Reid's first hands on test obviously shows their IBIS is not up to par with either the EM-1 or the K-5.

Depends who's review you read/listen to. Others have said it's better than the Olympus 5-axis IBIS.
Steve Huff recently did too.

The other thing is the video IQ is superior to that of any Pentax DSLR.

---------- Post added 12-08-14 at 07:50 AM ----------

Originally posted by TomGarn

I am out and will not come back to Pentax. Finished !

And the Pentax Forums too?

PiDicus Rex · 12-07-2014, 11:33 PM

Originally posted by kadajawi

Maybe, just maybe the noise refers to sensor noise due to heat?

Then we would have the same noise affecting the still images, especially for users who leave the SR in still on permanently, rather then only on when your finger has half pressed the shutter.

I read it as noise being picked up on the audio track,... but, 32kHz sound in the K-01, always going to record externally.
And, what about all the noises from the users hands on the body?

Originally posted by grispie

this is Dpreview's assessment on pentax video IS in the K3:

Maybe they just had the shutter speed up high and lost a fair bit of the skew,... which is fine for action films and useless for story-telling.
(That said, at 1/50th or 180deg, the K-01 eats alive the BMD Pocket for rolling shutter skew)

Originally posted by TomGarn

I am out and will not come back to Pentax. Finished !

Devils Advocate: Then why are you still a forum member or posting comments?

( Just when I thought I was out, they pulled me back in! )

kadajawi · 12-09-2014, 11:21 AM

Originally posted by PiDicus Rex

I read it as noise being picked up on the audio track,... but, 32kHz sound in the K-01, always going to record externally.
And, what about all the noises from the users hands on the body?

Don't shoot the messenger. I'm just trying to figure out what the hell is happening in the head of Pentax engineers. The audio quality isn't so good that the SR noises will ruin the audio track... it's bad in the first place, even without SR.

Steve.Ledger · 12-09-2014, 01:23 PM

If you handle the camera with sudden quick changes of movement, especially tilting - it's the only way I can get the SR mechanism to make a noise (clunk) which would be picked up on video.
Otherwise nothing. I get more noise from the K-01 and MX-1 shutter release button at the end of each clip when I press to stop recording.
AAMOF, the MX-1 audio recording is better than the K-01, less background hiss and better quality imho.

PiDicus Rex · 12-09-2014, 09:55 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by kadajawi

Don't shoot the messenger. I'm just trying to figure out what the hell is happening in the head of Pentax engineers.

That goes for all of us!

kadajawi · 04-20-2015, 05:06 AM

Just watched a video by Geeks Life that looked remarkably stable for them. Or even in general. The camera was walking back and forth around a car, you could see a bit of up and down only. No wobble, nothing. I was sure that it was a compact video camera, a pretty decent one, mounted on a glidecam. Then the lady behind the camera made a remark about needing a better phone case. I got curious... and suddenly a reflection. It was an iPhone 6 held with 2 hands. Nothing else. I am pretty stunned. There's no way a new Pentax could have even come close to it. Yes, it was a bright day, but still. How good is the iPhone?!

Steve.Ledger · 04-20-2015, 03:13 PM

Optical stabilization in a tiny mobile phone camera module (I think Toshiba originally developed it) is way quieter and much less compex than IBIS for an APS-C (the Achilles heal is IBIS SR noise in the consumer DSLR bodies). I really don't think there's a fair comparison to be had here.

kadajawi · 04-20-2015, 04:09 PM

Originally posted by Steve.Ledger

Optical stabilization in a tiny mobile phone camera module (I think Toshiba originally developed it) is way quieter and much less compex than IBIS for an APS-C (the Achilles heal is IBIS SR noise in the consumer DSLR bodies). I really don't think there's a fair comparison to be had here.

I looked into it, actually the iPhone 6 uses digital stabilization. Must have been a really bright day for it to work that well, but it looks to me like they have eliminated the wobbling effect. The other artifacts can be avoided by really short shutter speeds, and the day looks like it was bright enough for that.

Still, have to say I am impressed. The solution of using IBIS + digital SR (Olympus does it in the new EM-5 II) should give pretty nice results. The fast shakes that cause wobble and artifacts are gone thanks to the IBIS, and the digital SR manages to move the sensor into the center position and balances out bigger, slower movements.

The noise IBIS makes is not that serious. It is barely, if at all audible on the K-5. The K-x (?) however is noisy, I give you that. But even then people tend to not use in camera audio when the sound quality matters. Just use an external microphone, or music, ... Olympus and Sony use the IBIS system, Canon, Nikon and Samsung use lens based stabilization. And almost all camcorders use some form of optical stabilization, be it lens or sensor based.

Steve.Ledger · 04-20-2015, 05:12 PM

Originally posted by kadajawi

I looked into it, actually the iPhone 6 uses digital stabilization. .

It's the iPhone 6 (Plus) which uses Optical Image Stabilization.

You Tube

richandfleur · 04-20-2015, 07:14 PM

The iphone 6 plus uses optical stabilisation and is getting rave reviews for video work.

Sensor size is an issue, but given Sony are achieving this with a FF sensor I think Pentax need to go back and do some head scratching. That excuse is just that now, - an excuse as others are doing it.

Software stabilisation can work reasonably well, but it requires a lot of calculations and I doubt any 'on the fly' type system is going to be particularly good given the average camera processing speed.
The Technology behind Hyperlapse from Instagram - Instagram Engineering

12-04-2014, 05:15 AM	#17
grispie Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 1,199	funny, this is Dpreview's assessment on pentax video IS in the K3: "The camera does offer sensor shift-based shake reduction (Movie SR) during video capture. We've been pretty impressed with how steady the results are, and haven't seen any of the odd psychedelic warping that can occur when rolling shutter combines with digital correction." Last edited by grispie; 12-04-2014 at 05:30 AM. Reason: edit

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12-04-2014, 04:51 AM - 1 Like	#16
metaphiston Forum Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Edinburgh Posts: 91	It might not be much, but I did email Ricoh to say how much I liked mechanical SR in the k-5 and how I was disappointed to not see it in the k-3. I mailed their general enquiries for the UK and they replied to say they would forward o the relevant department. If you want to do something about it, however small, do the same.

12-04-2014, 12:43 PM	#18
Steve.Ledger Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Far North Qld Posts: 3,301	Yep I read that and rolled my eyes. DPreview (Mr Butler) can't be trusted to be accurate.

12-07-2014, 10:02 AM	#19
TomGarn Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: Hamburg Posts: 339	Yes and nobody can be trusted who still puts his trust in Pentax. I am out and will not come back to Pentax. Finished !

12-07-2014, 11:21 AM - 1 Like	#20
marq New Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Athens, Greece Photos: Gallery Posts: 19	Ever since Pentax disabled mechanical SR in Movie mode I have been waiting for any company to bring out 5-axis IBIS on a sensor larger than that of the Olympus OM-D E5 and EM-1. I would have gone with Oly but their very limited frame rate, codec and low-light capabilities deterred me. It's just not usable in a professional setting. Now Sony brought the A7 II to market and on paper it was THE answer, but seeing Andrew Reid's first hands on test obviously shows their IBIS is not up to par with either the EM-1 or the K-5. For that reason I STILL shoot with the K-5 for handheld work, and in the right light and with the right handling it still produces top quality footage. SO unless SONY address the shortcomings on the A7 II IBIS, or release an A7s II with a properly functions stabilisation, I might actually pick up a K5 II for the time being. Pentax had something very good with it, and should they venture into FF, they really should bring it back, even on a K-3 II.

12-07-2014, 02:31 PM	#21
Steve.Ledger Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Far North Qld Posts: 3,301	Originally posted by marq Now Sony brought the A7 II to market and on paper it was THE answer, but seeing Andrew Reid's first hands on test obviously shows their IBIS is not up to par with either the EM-1 or the K-5. Depends who's review you read/listen to. Others have said it's better than the Olympus 5-axis IBIS. Steve Huff recently did too. The other thing is the video IQ is superior to that of any Pentax DSLR. ---------- Post added 12-08-14 at 07:50 AM ---------- Originally posted by TomGarn I am out and will not come back to Pentax. Finished ! And the Pentax Forums too?

12-07-2014, 11:33 PM	#22
PiDicus Rex Veteran Member Join Date: May 2013 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 1,381	Originally posted by kadajawi Maybe, just maybe the noise refers to sensor noise due to heat? Then we would have the same noise affecting the still images, especially for users who leave the SR in still on permanently, rather then only on when your finger has half pressed the shutter. I read it as noise being picked up on the audio track,... but, 32kHz sound in the K-01, always going to record externally. And, what about all the noises from the users hands on the body? Originally posted by grispie this is Dpreview's assessment on pentax video IS in the K3: Maybe they just had the shutter speed up high and lost a fair bit of the skew,... which is fine for action films and useless for story-telling. (That said, at 1/50th or 180deg, the K-01 eats alive the BMD Pocket for rolling shutter skew) Originally posted by TomGarn I am out and will not come back to Pentax. Finished ! Devils Advocate: Then why are you still a forum member or posting comments? ( Just when I thought I was out, they pulled me back in! )

12-09-2014, 11:21 AM	#23
kadajawi Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 2,799	Originally posted by PiDicus Rex I read it as noise being picked up on the audio track,... but, 32kHz sound in the K-01, always going to record externally. And, what about all the noises from the users hands on the body? Don't shoot the messenger. I'm just trying to figure out what the hell is happening in the head of Pentax engineers. The audio quality isn't so good that the SR noises will ruin the audio track... it's bad in the first place, even without SR.

12-09-2014, 01:23 PM	#24
Steve.Ledger Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Far North Qld Posts: 3,301	If you handle the camera with sudden quick changes of movement, especially tilting - it's the only way I can get the SR mechanism to make a noise (clunk) which would be picked up on video. Otherwise nothing. I get more noise from the K-01 and MX-1 shutter release button at the end of each clip when I press to stop recording. AAMOF, the MX-1 audio recording is better than the K-01, less background hiss and better quality imho.

12-09-2014, 09:55 PM - 1 Like	#25
PiDicus Rex Veteran Member Join Date: May 2013 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 1,381	Originally posted by kadajawi Don't shoot the messenger. I'm just trying to figure out what the hell is happening in the head of Pentax engineers. That goes for all of us!

04-20-2015, 05:06 AM	#26
kadajawi Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 2,799	Just watched a video by Geeks Life that looked remarkably stable for them. Or even in general. The camera was walking back and forth around a car, you could see a bit of up and down only. No wobble, nothing. I was sure that it was a compact video camera, a pretty decent one, mounted on a glidecam. Then the lady behind the camera made a remark about needing a better phone case. I got curious... and suddenly a reflection. It was an iPhone 6 held with 2 hands. Nothing else. I am pretty stunned. There's no way a new Pentax could have even come close to it. Yes, it was a bright day, but still. How good is the iPhone?!

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04-20-2015, 03:13 PM	#27
Steve.Ledger Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Far North Qld Posts: 3,301	Optical stabilization in a tiny mobile phone camera module (I think Toshiba originally developed it) is way quieter and much less compex than IBIS for an APS-C (the Achilles heal is IBIS SR noise in the consumer DSLR bodies). I really don't think there's a fair comparison to be had here.

04-20-2015, 04:09 PM	#28
kadajawi Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 2,799	Originally posted by Steve.Ledger Optical stabilization in a tiny mobile phone camera module (I think Toshiba originally developed it) is way quieter and much less compex than IBIS for an APS-C (the Achilles heal is IBIS SR noise in the consumer DSLR bodies). I really don't think there's a fair comparison to be had here. I looked into it, actually the iPhone 6 uses digital stabilization. Must have been a really bright day for it to work that well, but it looks to me like they have eliminated the wobbling effect. The other artifacts can be avoided by really short shutter speeds, and the day looks like it was bright enough for that. Still, have to say I am impressed. The solution of using IBIS + digital SR (Olympus does it in the new EM-5 II) should give pretty nice results. The fast shakes that cause wobble and artifacts are gone thanks to the IBIS, and the digital SR manages to move the sensor into the center position and balances out bigger, slower movements. The noise IBIS makes is not that serious. It is barely, if at all audible on the K-5. The K-x (?) however is noisy, I give you that. But even then people tend to not use in camera audio when the sound quality matters. Just use an external microphone, or music, ... Olympus and Sony use the IBIS system, Canon, Nikon and Samsung use lens based stabilization. And almost all camcorders use some form of optical stabilization, be it lens or sensor based.

04-20-2015, 07:14 PM	#30
richandfleur Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: Palmerston North, New Zealand Photos: Albums Posts: 1,788 Original Poster	The iphone 6 plus uses optical stabilisation and is getting rave reviews for video work. Sensor size is an issue, but given Sony are achieving this with a FF sensor I think Pentax need to go back and do some head scratching. That excuse is just that now, - an excuse as others are doing it. Software stabilisation can work reasonably well, but it requires a lot of calculations and I doubt any 'on the fly' type system is going to be particularly good given the average camera processing speed. The Technology behind Hyperlapse from Instagram - Instagram Engineering