almost had my mind set

Steve.Ledger · 03-05-2015, 04:22 AM

Originally posted by grispie

What does 'dual mean Steve?
and what is the stabilizer for movie mode: software?

Movie mode = Electronic shake reduction.

Attached Images

kadajawi · 03-05-2015, 05:58 AM

So in the MX-1 they are using a system similar to what Olympus offers in the EM-5 Mk II? Hmm... weren't there rumors that the MX-1 was a redesigned and rebadged Olympus? Maybe THAT is the reason why it had that feature? I mean when they launched the K-5 II and IIs it had proper SR, even though other Pentax cameras launched at that time or earlier already dropped the feature...

I think one of the problems may be this forum. Apart from the people in this section everyone else seems to think that video is evil and should be banned. That professional users don't need video. etc. If Pentax listens to them...

I think Sony will put their SR system into their APS-C cameras, which should make them quite interesting. Then again there is Samsung, which gets very close to perfection. All they are missing is in body SR, and unfortunately it seems like they have decided against that, releasing lenses with SR...

grispie · 03-05-2015, 08:04 AM

btw, a friend of mine is seeking a better quality compact than he has.
I told him a few ones that i am aware of. among which the mx1.
Turns out we can't find it anywhere for sale anymore... unfortunate.
I really like that camera the more i look at it. Was even thinking of picking one up myself..

Originally posted by kadajawi

I think one of the problems may be this forum. Apart from the people in this section everyone else seems to think that video is evil and should be banned. That professional users don't need video. etc. If Pentax listens to them...

i wouldn't go that far. I have seen that some people think like that, but there are enough others as well.
anyhow, for those people saying no to video in a dslr. remember a lot of people do want it & it is a way to grow marketshare and to finance the photo r&d department & development of lenses.

ps: you have a point: i do not expect mechanical sr in the FF. Personally, you know that i don't care too much about that, but i agree: if you have the technology in house anyhow....

kadajawi · 03-05-2015, 08:50 AM

The larger the sensor, the less useful the SR. The new Pentax FF will have SR, that's pretty much confirmed, but how useful it will be... better than nothing, I'm sure. In any case it's a neat way to reduce rolling shutter artifacts, even if you use gear to stabilize it may prove useful.

Steve.Ledger · 03-05-2015, 03:28 PM

Originally posted by kadajawi

So in the MX-1 they are using a system similar to what Olympus offers in the EM-5 Mk II? Hmm... weren't there rumors that the MX-1 was a redesigned and rebadged Olympus? Maybe THAT is the reason why it had that feature? I mean when they launched the K-5 II and IIs it had proper SR, even though other Pentax cameras launched at that time or earlier already dropped the feature...

Well it shared the lens ass'y, also with a Kodak model I believe too - not sure about the sensor and other internals. All made by Asia Optical I read.

grispie · 03-06-2015, 03:43 AM

Originally posted by kadajawi

In any case it's a neat way to reduce rolling shutter artifacts

enlighten me, i don't understand how sr (mechanical) can solve/help rolling shutter?
I thought rolling shutter has to do with how a cmos sensor reads the image (line per line, from top to bottom and therefore creating a skew)

kadajawi · 03-06-2015, 04:07 AM

Originally posted by grispie

enlighten me, i don't understand how sr (mechanical) can solve/help rolling shutter?
I thought rolling shutter has to do with how a cmos sensor reads the image (line per line, from top to bottom and therefore creating a skew)

It won't help with pans, but it helps with shakiness and jerking around. The wobbling and jello effect is gone. And the rolling shutter during fast pans is hard to notice anyway, and nowhere near as annoying.

grispie · 03-06-2015, 04:09 AM

i see what you mean. yes

grispie · 03-06-2015, 05:52 AM

Question. I don't want to start another thread so i'll just put it here:

Yesterday evening i was reading on the net that to get the best quality 25fps from my sony A77 was to shoot 50i at 24mbps (instead of 50p at 28mbps, these are menu choices..), put it on a 25fps timeline in premiere & it would automatically become 25p. The idea being that less fps (25 in 50i) are pushed through 24mbps than 50fps through 28mbps, thus retaining more details.

I'm gonna test it out this weekend to see whether it makes any visible difference.

But now, i wonder, assuming the above makes sense :-): can this be applied to the K3 as well? or different: what would be the best way to shoot to get the best quality out of the k3.

Also: Is shooting 50i 1080p a good way to get 1080p slowmotion with the k3 or should i tackle this differently?

kadajawi · 03-06-2015, 10:45 AM

Yikes. Avoid interlacing at any cost. Yes, you _can_ convert it to almost as good 50p (from 50i) on a computer, but the performance hit is insane if the quality is to be good. If you want to know what I use to do that, let me know (it's an AviSynth script). If you don't go through such a process you'll basically end up with 720p, at most. I hope you understand how interlacing works. Getting from 50i to 25p means trying to reconstruct detail to create a 50p video, trying to guess what was in the alternate line, (again, it can work well even during motion, but it's very CPU intense and requires more than Premiere), and then throwing away half the frames.

Why not shoot 25p if that's what you want?

grispie · 03-06-2015, 02:47 PM

Originally posted by kadajawi

Why not shoot 25p if that's what you want?

well, the theory about the advantage of 50i shooting on the sony a77 was something i read on the net. Now reading it again, it don't make sense to me at all... :-)
so lets ignore that :-)

But i am interested in how i could get nice slow motion from the K3 without having to go to 720p...?
when i put the sony 1080p 50p footage on a premiere timeline and slow it down to 50%, it's real nice.

kadajawi · 03-06-2015, 04:11 PM

Originally posted by grispie

well, the theory about the advantage of 50i shooting on the sony a77 was something i read on the net. Now reading it again, it don't make sense to me at all... :-)
so lets ignore that :-)

But i am interested in how i could get nice slow motion from the K3 without having to go to 720p...?
when i put the sony 1080p 50p footage on a premiere timeline and slow it down to 50%, it's real nice.

I don't know what the K-3 can output, but if it is 1080i, then yes, you can use that, and

AssumeTFF ()
QTGMC ( Preset="Slow", EZDenoise=0.7 )

in AviSynth will convert it into a 1080 50p source IIRC, and that you can use to do slow-mo.

richandfleur · 03-06-2015, 05:54 PM

Long story short, the K-3 doesn't do anything fast at 1080p that you can slow down.
I suspect 720p slowed and then scaled up would be the only other alternative here?

PiDicus Rex · 03-08-2015, 07:30 AM

Originally posted by richandfleur

On one hand they don't know a heck of a lot about it, and on the other they have a natural eye for composition etc.

I'd actually argue that to be un-true - maybe 'less correct',...
I've noted a lot of Photographers frame with a lot of room around the subject, which is fine in stills where you have huge resolution and can crop down.
But in video, even HD and 4K, the framing for TV and Film is much different - We Cinematographers tend to cut off the tops of heads, or the sides of a face, if we can get more detail and more of the audience looking where we want them to be looking. We do the cropping or framing in camera because to do it in editing means a loss of detail.

A picture tells a thousand words right?
That means Cinematographers start at 24,000 words a second...

Originally posted by grispie

Yesterday evening i was reading on the net that to get the best quality 25fps from my sony A77 was to shoot 50i at 24mbps (instead of 50p at 28mbps, these are menu choices..), put it on a 25fps timeline in premiere & it would automatically become 25p. The idea being that less fps (25 in 50i) are pushed through 24mbps than 50fps through 28mbps, thus retaining more details.

That's one of those 'technically correct for Compression' comments.
If you're shooting close ups of talent that aren't moving about in frame much, sure, give it a go./
But any decent level of motion, you want as many frames as you can get, at an appropriate shutter speed to preserve sharpness as needed.
I use higher shutter speeds when filming sports, or when there's so much light that even the ND's don't cut it down enough.

And as Kadajawi said above, the conversion process will give you a massive hit in rendering, his solution of shooting 25p is very much the best option for 25p delivery.

The absolute best way to shoot 50p and not loose a heap of data in the CoDec, is to use an external recorder.

Anyone checked you can turn the overlays off on the HDMI for the K-3, K-S1 and K-S2 ?

kadajawi · 03-08-2015, 07:43 AM

Keep in mind that 50p doesn't need 2x the bitrate of 25p. There should be less change between the frames, and there should be some sort of constant motion, which means less data is needed (unless you shoot all I frames or the source is very noisy). Giving 4 Mbps more isn't enough IMHO, but it is not as bad as it sounds.

Actually in my photos I rarely crop in post... only to get another aspect ratio usually. It depends on the photographer IMHO. And IIRC some filmmakers do shoot wider than they need to and crop in post. Can't remember who it was though... Soderbergh?

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03-05-2015, 04:22 AM	#16
Steve.Ledger Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Far North Qld Posts: 3,301	Originally posted by grispie What does 'dual mean Steve? and what is the stabilizer for movie mode: software? Movie mode = Electronic shake reduction. Attached Images

03-05-2015, 05:58 AM	#17
kadajawi Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 2,799	So in the MX-1 they are using a system similar to what Olympus offers in the EM-5 Mk II? Hmm... weren't there rumors that the MX-1 was a redesigned and rebadged Olympus? Maybe THAT is the reason why it had that feature? I mean when they launched the K-5 II and IIs it had proper SR, even though other Pentax cameras launched at that time or earlier already dropped the feature... I think one of the problems may be this forum. Apart from the people in this section everyone else seems to think that video is evil and should be banned. That professional users don't need video. etc. If Pentax listens to them... I think Sony will put their SR system into their APS-C cameras, which should make them quite interesting. Then again there is Samsung, which gets very close to perfection. All they are missing is in body SR, and unfortunately it seems like they have decided against that, releasing lenses with SR...

03-05-2015, 08:04 AM	#18
grispie Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 1,199 Original Poster	btw, a friend of mine is seeking a better quality compact than he has. I told him a few ones that i am aware of. among which the mx1. Turns out we can't find it anywhere for sale anymore... unfortunate. I really like that camera the more i look at it. Was even thinking of picking one up myself.. Originally posted by kadajawi I think one of the problems may be this forum. Apart from the people in this section everyone else seems to think that video is evil and should be banned. That professional users don't need video. etc. If Pentax listens to them... i wouldn't go that far. I have seen that some people think like that, but there are enough others as well. anyhow, for those people saying no to video in a dslr. remember a lot of people do want it & it is a way to grow marketshare and to finance the photo r&d department & development of lenses. ps: you have a point: i do not expect mechanical sr in the FF. Personally, you know that i don't care too much about that, but i agree: if you have the technology in house anyhow....

03-05-2015, 08:50 AM	#19
kadajawi Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 2,799	The larger the sensor, the less useful the SR. The new Pentax FF will have SR, that's pretty much confirmed, but how useful it will be... better than nothing, I'm sure. In any case it's a neat way to reduce rolling shutter artifacts, even if you use gear to stabilize it may prove useful.

03-05-2015, 03:28 PM	#20
Steve.Ledger Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Far North Qld Posts: 3,301	Originally posted by kadajawi So in the MX-1 they are using a system similar to what Olympus offers in the EM-5 Mk II? Hmm... weren't there rumors that the MX-1 was a redesigned and rebadged Olympus? Maybe THAT is the reason why it had that feature? I mean when they launched the K-5 II and IIs it had proper SR, even though other Pentax cameras launched at that time or earlier already dropped the feature... Well it shared the lens ass'y, also with a Kodak model I believe too - not sure about the sensor and other internals. All made by Asia Optical I read.

03-06-2015, 03:43 AM	#21
grispie Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 1,199 Original Poster	Originally posted by kadajawi In any case it's a neat way to reduce rolling shutter artifacts enlighten me, i don't understand how sr (mechanical) can solve/help rolling shutter? I thought rolling shutter has to do with how a cmos sensor reads the image (line per line, from top to bottom and therefore creating a skew)

03-06-2015, 04:07 AM	#22
kadajawi Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 2,799	Originally posted by grispie enlighten me, i don't understand how sr (mechanical) can solve/help rolling shutter? I thought rolling shutter has to do with how a cmos sensor reads the image (line per line, from top to bottom and therefore creating a skew) It won't help with pans, but it helps with shakiness and jerking around. The wobbling and jello effect is gone. And the rolling shutter during fast pans is hard to notice anyway, and nowhere near as annoying.

03-06-2015, 04:09 AM	#23
grispie Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 1,199 Original Poster	i see what you mean. yes

03-06-2015, 05:52 AM	#24
grispie Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 1,199 Original Poster	Question. I don't want to start another thread so i'll just put it here: Yesterday evening i was reading on the net that to get the best quality 25fps from my sony A77 was to shoot 50i at 24mbps (instead of 50p at 28mbps, these are menu choices..), put it on a 25fps timeline in premiere & it would automatically become 25p. The idea being that less fps (25 in 50i) are pushed through 24mbps than 50fps through 28mbps, thus retaining more details. I'm gonna test it out this weekend to see whether it makes any visible difference. But now, i wonder, assuming the above makes sense :-): can this be applied to the K3 as well? or different: what would be the best way to shoot to get the best quality out of the k3. Also: Is shooting 50i 1080p a good way to get 1080p slowmotion with the k3 or should i tackle this differently?

03-06-2015, 10:45 AM	#25
kadajawi Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 2,799	Yikes. Avoid interlacing at any cost. Yes, you _can_ convert it to almost as good 50p (from 50i) on a computer, but the performance hit is insane if the quality is to be good. If you want to know what I use to do that, let me know (it's an AviSynth script). If you don't go through such a process you'll basically end up with 720p, at most. I hope you understand how interlacing works. Getting from 50i to 25p means trying to reconstruct detail to create a 50p video, trying to guess what was in the alternate line, (again, it can work well even during motion, but it's very CPU intense and requires more than Premiere), and then throwing away half the frames. Why not shoot 25p if that's what you want?

03-06-2015, 02:47 PM	#26
grispie Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 1,199 Original Poster	Originally posted by kadajawi Why not shoot 25p if that's what you want? well, the theory about the advantage of 50i shooting on the sony a77 was something i read on the net. Now reading it again, it don't make sense to me at all... :-) so lets ignore that :-) But i am interested in how i could get nice slow motion from the K3 without having to go to 720p...? when i put the sony 1080p 50p footage on a premiere timeline and slow it down to 50%, it's real nice.

03-06-2015, 04:11 PM	#27
kadajawi Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 2,799	Originally posted by grispie well, the theory about the advantage of 50i shooting on the sony a77 was something i read on the net. Now reading it again, it don't make sense to me at all... :-) so lets ignore that :-) But i am interested in how i could get nice slow motion from the K3 without having to go to 720p...? when i put the sony 1080p 50p footage on a premiere timeline and slow it down to 50%, it's real nice. I don't know what the K-3 can output, but if it is 1080i, then yes, you can use that, and AssumeTFF () QTGMC ( Preset="Slow", EZDenoise=0.7 ) in AviSynth will convert it into a 1080 50p source IIRC, and that you can use to do slow-mo.

03-06-2015, 05:54 PM	#28
richandfleur Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: Palmerston North, New Zealand Photos: Albums Posts: 1,788	Long story short, the K-3 doesn't do anything fast at 1080p that you can slow down. I suspect 720p slowed and then scaled up would be the only other alternative here?

03-08-2015, 07:30 AM	#29
PiDicus Rex Veteran Member Join Date: May 2013 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 1,381	Originally posted by richandfleur On one hand they don't know a heck of a lot about it, and on the other they have a natural eye for composition etc. I'd actually argue that to be un-true - maybe 'less correct',... I've noted a lot of Photographers frame with a lot of room around the subject, which is fine in stills where you have huge resolution and can crop down. But in video, even HD and 4K, the framing for TV and Film is much different - We Cinematographers tend to cut off the tops of heads, or the sides of a face, if we can get more detail and more of the audience looking where we want them to be looking. We do the cropping or framing in camera because to do it in editing means a loss of detail. A picture tells a thousand words right? That means Cinematographers start at 24,000 words a second... Originally posted by grispie Yesterday evening i was reading on the net that to get the best quality 25fps from my sony A77 was to shoot 50i at 24mbps (instead of 50p at 28mbps, these are menu choices..), put it on a 25fps timeline in premiere & it would automatically become 25p. The idea being that less fps (25 in 50i) are pushed through 24mbps than 50fps through 28mbps, thus retaining more details. That's one of those 'technically correct for Compression' comments. If you're shooting close ups of talent that aren't moving about in frame much, sure, give it a go./ But any decent level of motion, you want as many frames as you can get, at an appropriate shutter speed to preserve sharpness as needed. I use higher shutter speeds when filming sports, or when there's so much light that even the ND's don't cut it down enough. And as Kadajawi said above, the conversion process will give you a massive hit in rendering, his solution of shooting 25p is very much the best option for 25p delivery. The absolute best way to shoot 50p and not loose a heap of data in the CoDec, is to use an external recorder. Anyone checked you can turn the overlays off on the HDMI for the K-3, K-S1 and K-S2 ?

03-08-2015, 07:43 AM	#30
kadajawi Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 2,799	Keep in mind that 50p doesn't need 2x the bitrate of 25p. There should be less change between the frames, and there should be some sort of constant motion, which means less data is needed (unless you shoot all I frames or the source is very noisy). Giving 4 Mbps more isn't enough IMHO, but it is not as bad as it sounds. Actually in my photos I rarely crop in post... only to get another aspect ratio usually. It depends on the photographer IMHO. And IIRC some filmmakers do shoot wider than they need to and crop in post. Can't remember who it was though... Soderbergh?