[richandfleur]

Which would you rather have Ricoh spend money on R&D?

Improving video

or

Developing a line of Full Frame DSLRs?

And how do you think the reviews and sales are going to go down with yet another lame video mode offering?

Seen any reviews lately that don't comment and add overall score weighting to the video capabilities?

They are one in the same thing. You're not developing a competitive FF DSLR if it doesn't have a decent video mode.

[kadajawi]

Which would you rather have Ricoh spend money on R&D?

Improving video

or

Developing a line of Full Frame DSLRs?

I guess Ricoh wasn't listening to all the clamoring for a Full Frame camera.

a) Good luck selling the new FF camera to non-Pentaxians. How much better could it be in the stills department that people will look and say... yeah, ok, it sucks at video, which I may or may not use, but at least want to have the capability to in the future, but it's that amazing for stills that I'm going to sell all my existing gear and switch to Pentax. Even amongst Pentaxians not everyone is happy with Pentax essentially being stuck in 2010... or rather that the IMHO best Pentax for video was launched in 2010, and it has gotten worse since.

b) What we are asking for is a few firmware tweaks. Not a radically new camera. Just make use of the hardware that they are already using... Would you be happy if the FF Pentax would not be able to save raw? I mean, technically it would, but they just didn't activate it? It will only save JPEGs, and there is no quality setting, so you are limited to a highly compressed JPEG. And to add insult to injury the stabilizer only works in auto mode, switch to P, Av, Tv or M and it's off.

c) I don't need FF, I don't want FF. Unless they can do miracles, which I highly doubt they can.

[mamethot]

You keep saying it's only a firmware tweak, and I believe it is (existing functionality in previous bodies).

Maybe there are other reasons why they don't do it on newer bodies. One that comes to mind is power consumption and overheating, which could lead to higher failure rates for the IBIS.

If it were a reason, they would certainly not tell the public about it, they would probably say it's a noise issue.

[kadajawi]

You keep saying it's only a firmware tweak, and I believe it is (existing functionality in previous bodies).

Maybe there are other reasons why they don't do it on newer bodies. One that comes to mind is power consumption and overheating, which could lead to higher failure rates for the IBIS.

If it were a reason, they would certainly not tell the public about it, they would probably say it's a noise issue.

Possible. But I have recorded many, many hours of video with my K-5. The IBIS still works great. And that involves shooting handheld while walking etc., i.e. extra workout for the IBIS system, way beyond what it usually has to cope with. Battery life... it's awesome. If I only shoot video I'd say 1 1/2 to 2 hours is not a problem. I've shot something like 45 minutes of video and 1000+ photos on a single charge. With IBIS activated. How much better can battery life be? A Sony NEX 5 doesn't even get close to that performance (yes, the battery is smaller, but still). Heat problems? The NEX 5 overheats just as much as the K-5. And new sensors run much cooler. My K-5 is also beyond 50k photos, and it still works well (except for a weird issue with the mirror seemingly not returning into the correct position...).

Noise is an issue on the lesser K cameras that had stabilization during video, but the K-5 was quiet enough. And I think if they really wanted to fix noise issues, how about mounting the microphone in a more isolated fashion? Further away from the sensor and AF motor, and rubber mounted perhaps so that the sounds don't have much of an impact? Or even deactivate the microphone while shooting with IBIS on.

Elsewhere I've read (on a different topic) a fitting analogy: Cars can crash, and car crashes can be deadly. Why don't we ban cars?

It is a useful feature for some, even if it comes with a few downsides. Communicate them, or even don't communicate them, we'll find out eventually. People can then decide what they want to use, it's not like if they activate IBIS it is always on. They could even make it a hidden feature, that you have to unlock first (like with Android phones where you have to tap on the version number 10 times in order to unlock some additional functionality that go beyond what normal users would need... the here be dragons section of the phone). Not sure how "oh the mechanism is noisy" is much better than "the mechanism gets too warm" either.

[johnmflores]

It is a useful feature for some, even if it comes with a few downsides. Communicate them, or even don't communicate them, we'll find out eventually. People can then decide what they want to use, it's not like if they activate IBIS it is always on. They could even make it a hidden feature, that you have to unlock first (like with Android phones where you have to tap on the version number 10 times in order to unlock some additional functionality that go beyond what normal users would need... the here be dragons section of the phone). Not sure how "oh the mechanism is noisy" is much better than "the mechanism gets too warm" either.

What if one of those "downsides" is camera failure? Would you still be ok with that? Can you state with 100% certainty that potential camera failure is not a risk of this "simple firmware fix"? You may claim that I'm speculating, but then again so are you. Neither of us have arguments based on facts.


The one fact that we do know is that Pentax said publicly that video is not a priority for them. That may change of course, but if video is that important to you right now in 2015, don't let the tools hold back your creative vision. Get the right tools, whether that's a monopod, Steadicam, or another system altogether.

[kadajawi]

What if one of those "downsides" is camera failure? Would you still be ok with that? Can you state with 100% certainty that potential camera failure is not a risk of this "simple firmware fix"? You may claim that I'm speculating, but then again so are you. Neither of us have arguments based on facts.


The one fact that we do know is that Pentax said publicly that video is not a priority for them. That may change of course, but if video is that important to you right now in 2015, don't let the tools hold back your creative vision. Get the right tools, whether that's a monopod, Steadicam, or another system altogether.

Again, yeah, it's possible that the downside may be camera failure. My K-5 does have the feature (and they didn't even bother removing it from the K-5 II), and it works well. Couldn't see any damage due to IBIS. So I am quite confident that it works, and won't hurt the camera too much. At some point it will die, of course. But considering how many hours it has worked already...

Also consider that in live view newer Pentaxes do have IBIS enabled. Why? If it'd hurt the camera, why not deactivate there too, only to activate it when you actually take a photo?

My K-5 serves me well. I don't need to change the system, I'm not held back. I would be with a K-3 IMHO, but luckily I own a K-5. At some point the K-5 will die though, and then it'd be nice if Pentax offered something I can get into.

[johnmflores]

Again, yeah, it's possible that the downside may be camera failure. My K-5 does have the feature (and they didn't even bother removing it from the K-5 II), and it works well. Couldn't see any damage due to IBIS. So I am quite confident that it works, and won't hurt the camera too much. At some point it will die, of course. But considering how many hours it has worked already...

Also consider that in live view newer Pentaxes do have IBIS enabled. Why? If it'd hurt the camera, why not deactivate there too, only to activate it when you actually take a photo?

Do you know if the SR system in the K-5 is identical to the one in the K-3?
Do you know if the sensor in the K-3 weighs the same as the one in the K-5?
Do you know if the sensor in the K-3 generates more or less heat than the one in the K-5?
Do you know if the SR system in the K-5 generates more or less heat than the one in the K-3?
Do you know if there any components within proximity of the sensor that would be compromised either by heat or electrical interference is SR was turned on with the K-3 while shooting video?

You gotta understand that this idea that you are peddling, "Well, if it works on the K-5 then it should work on the K-3" is not based on anything. Well, maybe it's based on wishful thinking, but it's certainly not based on engineering.

[richandfleur]

"Well, if it works on the K-5 then it should work on the K-3" is not based on anything.

Dude it's not our job to engineer the product, that's Pentax's.
Their targets are too low if they believe that Movie SR is a sufficient option to get them out of engineering a design that works.

[grispie]

Dude it's not our job to engineer the product, that's Pentax's.

that's true. but keep in mind they will also set their priorities.
right now that is the FF and the lenses. Futurewise that may be more important than ibis.

From a corporate view, i can understand that completely and i also believe that backing off to movie sr might have to do with not taking any risks.

ps: when i said to buy an olympus is just because of my own realistic view on it. I simply don't believe at this moment they will introduce ibis again. If it is really that important, you simply might have to revert to another brand.

[richandfleur]

that's true. but keep in mind they will also set their priorities.

Am not disagreeing with you, I just think they are going to get more negative press than they realise through their continued inaction on the video front.
Every new DSLR has better video capabilities than Pentax presently, and video now gets a slice of the action in every new review.


I can fully understand the focus being on the new FF camera, but it's a case of trying to raise awareness of the fact that (like it or not) video is a major component of cameras nowadays. ~so they simply must focus on it at some stage within the FF development anyway.

ps: when i said to buy an olympus is just because of my own realistic view on it. I simply don't believe at this moment they will introduce ibis again. If it is really that important, you simply might have to revert to another brand.

No worries, I fully appreciate where you are coming from, and honestly I'm looking elsewhere because of it. So no hard feelings


I gave up expecting either flagship video developments, or feature fix/upgrades for older cameras via firmware updates from Pentax long ago. It's sad that I'm now looking elsewhere, but you are right in I don't see anything changing any time soon.


Pentax are making a point of trying to get new customers on board with cameras such as the K-S1. They're just very out of touch with the market place in this respect. Young people presently take a photo or a video on their phones and post it to facebook/message service. Putting flashing lights on the front, and a stupid awkward button control dial on the back doesn't make it attractive. We are in 2015. Any camera that can't do 1080p at 60fps is not really in the game, is not really modern, and isn't worthy of being called a flagship model. Pentax have finally offered a fold out screen on the K-S2, so it looks like my Canon PowerShot S1 IS did in early 2004. Pentax now has wifi built in too, like Nikon did with their D5300 over a year ago, a camera that also does 1080 at 60fps.


Pentax have all the bits, they just seem incapable of putting them altogether sensibly.


I want them to do it, and I'd support them further after years of having solely Pentax bodies, but they're either seriously late to the party, or turn up at the wrong address from the customers.

[kadajawi]

Do you know if the SR system in the K-5 is identical to the one in the K-3?
Do you know if the sensor in the K-3 weighs the same as the one in the K-5?
Do you know if the sensor in the K-3 generates more or less heat than the one in the K-5?
Do you know if the SR system in the K-5 generates more or less heat than the one in the K-3?
Do you know if there any components within proximity of the sensor that would be compromised either by heat or electrical interference is SR was turned on with the K-3 while shooting video?

You gotta understand that this idea that you are peddling, "Well, if it works on the K-5 then it should work on the K-3" is not based on anything. Well, maybe it's based on wishful thinking, but it's certainly not based on engineering.

Fair enough. Though at least in the sensor heat area I doubt the newer sensor will be as warm as the old one. Sony is putting those sensors in mirrorless cameras, thus lower power consumption and lower heat production are important.

And again, it works on the K-3. Maybe someone with a K-3 can try it out... put it in live view (with no time out?), put it (secured) on the passenger seat and drive around. How warm does it get? Hot pixels in video mode (before and after)? Any difference to similar usage while recording a video? Because in live view the SR system IS active. And from what I tried the quality looked fine, though I only could try it in a shop. It seems to be the same IBIS that is active on my K-5 during video recording. Finally, Olympus and Sony can make it work in some pretty small cameras, and in the case of Sony with a much bigger and presumably heavier sensor.

Movie SR was always a bad idea. The implementation is particularly bad (at least in the K-30...), and it crops the sensor even when turned off (so I'd much rather not have any form of SR than Movie SR... I'd turn it off anyway, and then the result is still a crop that I do not want). Anything the Movie SR can do we can do in post, but in better quality and with more control.

I hope with more and more competing cameras having IBIS reviews will call out Pentax for their lack of IBIS. I fear that's the only thing that can make them see it's a serious issue.

[PiDicus Rex]

Improving video or Developing a line of Full Frame DSLRs?

Improving video - they'll sell more units to a large range of customers, if they get the video features right.
It's really only the 'stills only' crowd that want FF, and then, really only those who don't have the budget to grab a 645Z.

All the entrance models, the K-S1&2 should have fantastic video features to grab the new wave of customers who are moving up from P&S models to get a 'proper' camera, rather then have them test the Pentax and then buy a Canikon.

---------- Post added 08-05-15 at 12:10 AM ----------

If it were a reason, they would certainly not tell the public about it, they would probably say it's a noise issue.

They already did that, saying it was noise the camera would record.
It's BS, as the hands on the body make more noise, and anyone who needs to record decent Voice will either use a decent handheld mic (or feed the mic port from a receiver) or use an external recorder for dialog.

---------- Post added 08-05-15 at 12:12 AM ----------

They could even make it a hidden feature, that you have to unlock first (like with Android phones where you have to tap on the version number 10 times in order to unlock some additional functionality that go beyond what normal users would need... the here be dragons section of the phone).

How many of you just went and turned the SR on and off ten times?


One note on SR and long lenses - really, anything over 85mm, put it on a tripod. We need the Sensor Shift for hand-held with wide lenses - 12 to 50mm, stuff we record people with during close-ups, and quick run-n-gun style interviews.

---------- Post added 08-05-15 at 12:18 AM ----------

Also consider that in live view newer Pentaxes do have IBIS enabled. Why? If it'd hurt the camera, why not deactivate there too, only to activate it when you actually take a photo?

And if they'd let us record decent video via the HDMI, we'd all just use live-view in M photos,...
Even the K-01 has Sensor Shift liveview in photo modes, if you change the setting to 'always' from 'only when pressed'.

---------- Post added 08-05-15 at 12:21 AM ----------

"Well, if it works on the K-5 then it should work on the K-3" is not based on anything.

K-5, K-01, K-30,.. IRC, all have the same sensor, as do a couple of other models, so yes, the same movement for that sensor would carry across, but the K-3 is a different sensor.
The fly in the ointment is,... ALL of those models have Sensor Shift in Stills, and in Live View for stills, and only one gets to keep it in Video.
It just needs to be switched on in Video.

---------- Post added 08-05-15 at 12:25 AM ----------

And again, it works on the K-3. Maybe someone with a K-3 can try it out... put it in live view (with no time out?), put it (secured) on the passenger seat and drive around.

Good thinking !!
I'm shooting a promo on a K-3 next Thursday, and a mate is loaning me an Atomos Ninja,....

[johnmflores]

Dude it's not our job to engineer the product, that's Pentax's.
Their targets are too low if they believe that Movie SR is a sufficient option to get them out of engineering a design that works.

No it's not. Neither is it your job to be a Pentax product and marketing manager yet you're making the common mistake of conflating your needs with the needs of the market. What likely happened is that something changed between the K-5 and K-3 to make sensor SR untenable. Maybe the K-3 sensor is heavier. Maybe it generates more heat. Maybe the K-3 SR generates more heat. We don't know.

But I'm pretty darn well sure that the same camera engineers that are figuring out cool things like SR-based moire filters and SR-based pixel shift know how to make sensor-based SR work with the K-3 sensor while shooting video. But there are probably engineering, production, supply chain, time-to-market, and cost implications with that solution that the product and marketing managers decided not to go ahead with.

Every design is a compromise and that's the compromise that Pentax chose. As I've said before, if that compromise doesn't work for you or gets in the way of fulfilling your creative vision, then get the camera that meets your needs. If that means leaving Pentax then so be it. It's only a camera.

[richandfleur]

What likely happened is that something changed between the K-5 and K-3 to make sensor SR untenable.

There's quite a few cameras in between there, like a K-01, K-30 and K-50, and fundamentally they all use the same 16MP sensor.


I suspect it was more a case of a software based solution being easier to apply stabilisation to all cameras, regardless of them having physical sensor shift hardware or not.


The problem with this though, is that whilst it's cheaper and easier to deploy, it never does as good a job as can be achieved by using the physical movement sensors, and then sensor actuators.
So it's fundamentally opting for ease of deployment and associated lower costs over image quality, which is an area Pentax have traditionally excelled at.


K-3 might be different, I don't know, but the earlier models were all essentially the same sensor. I doubt that there is much of a weight differences between sensors of the same size but different resolutions.


Bottom line, my priorities are different to Pentax's clearly.

[johnmflores]

I suspect it was more a case of a software based solution being easier to apply stabilisation to all cameras, regardless of them having physical sensor shift hardware or not.

The problem with this though, is that whilst it's cheaper and easier to deploy, it never does as good a job as can be achieved by using the physical movement sensors, and then sensor actuators.
So it's fundamentally opting for ease of deployment and associated lower costs over image quality, which is an area Pentax have traditionally excelled at.

So you're claiming that the same engineering team that's managed to do some really cool things with SR (Image composition adjustment, AA filter, tilt-shift simulation, astro tracer, pixel shift, an extra stop of stability with the K-3 II, etc..) suddenly got lazy and said, "Meh, let's just give them Movie SR and call it a day."?

K-3 might be different, I don't know, but the earlier models were all essentially the same sensor. I doubt that there is much of a weight differences between sensors of the same size but different resolutions.

So you really think that you can go to Pentax's SR engineering team (that likely has several patents to their names and has repeatedly proven that they undertand photographers' needs by introducing features that appeal to them and are unique in the industry) and show them something with your backseat engineering that will make them say, "Oh wow, we didn't think of that!"?

Bottom line, my priorities are different to Pentax's clearly.

That's ok. At the end of the day, cameras are just tools, and if the tools hold your back then get new tools. It's just unfathomable to me to think that Pentax would withold a feature out of laziness, oversight, or penny pinching when nearly every camera in their lineup is very competitive in the segment that it competes in.