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03-05-2016, 04:22 PM   #151
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QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
Do either of you know if the imaging pipeline for Live View is identical to the imaging pipeline for recording video? Do either of you know the video specs of Live View, i.e., frame rates, resolution, color space? Is it 24P? Is it 1080P, is it 720P? What are they doing to get the image off the 36 MP sensor onto the rear screen - are they line skipping, pixel binning, or something else? Would a feed from the Live View be high enough quality? What does it take to provide clean HDMI out? Is it just a setting or something more?

I doubt that either of you know any of those answers, but there's clearly no way to sway you from this conspiracy theory that they turned it off for no good reason or, worse yet, because some stupid product marketing person doesn't want Pentax to be competitive at video and offer a feature that nobody else has.

The idea that they don't want to implement a feature that is part of their core value proposition and something that would give the K-1 a big differentiating feature from competitors and take just $5 max to implement is truly laughable.

But at this point it's taken up too much of my time. Have a nice day. Enjoy your photo and video taking. I'm going to shoot some video of my nephew playing basketball. And I'm bringing a small monopod to stabilize the shots.
Again, you're displaying a complete misunderstanding of how sensor-shift SR works. The digital pipeline has absolutely no bearing on it. Sensor-shift stabilization is physical, just like optical stabilization; it is stabilizing the image where the light from the scene interacts with the sensor. There is no digital image processing involved and the amount of processing power required is *very* minimal (as it has only to do with the accelerometer data).

Obviously there's nothing to be gained by continuing to attempt to educate you on the subject. Good grief...

03-05-2016, 06:36 PM   #152
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Is it really necessary to be so condescending & to get so personal? Be objective and illustrate your points with some evidence.
If you are a camera engineer, then your comments would have merit - otherwise all we are reading is another opinion (and we all have those ).
03-05-2016, 06:56 PM   #153
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QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
Do either of you know if the imaging pipeline for Live View is identical to the imaging pipeline for recording video? Do either of you know the video specs of Live View, i.e., frame rates, resolution, color space? Is it 24P? Is it 1080P, is it 720P? What are they doing to get the image off the 36 MP sensor onto the rear screen - are they line skipping, pixel binning, or something else? Would a feed from the Live View be high enough quality? What does it take to provide clean HDMI out? Is it just a setting or something more?

I doubt that either of you know any of those answers, but there's clearly no way to sway you from this conspiracy theory that they turned it off for no good reason or, worse yet, because some stupid product marketing person doesn't want Pentax to be competitive at video and offer a feature that nobody else has.

The idea that they don't want to implement a feature that is part of their core value proposition and something that would give the K-1 a big differentiating feature from competitors and take just $5 max to implement is truly laughable.

But at this point it's taken up too much of my time. Have a nice day. Enjoy your photo and video taking. I'm going to shoot some video of my nephew playing basketball. And I'm bringing a small monopod to stabilize the shots.
I didn't say clean HDMI was possible, did I? I said it would be nice if they provided it, especially since live view provides a stabilized view.

However, nothing about the pixel pipeline has anything to do with the camera stabilizing in live view and not in video mode. The fact is, the camera CAN stabilize a video feed (no matter what the quality is), and if there'd be any of your reasons, it shouldn't be. Camera overheats because of prolonged SR usage? People can use live view for a long time, and overheat the camera. SR won't last prolonged SR usage? Why not deactivate it in live view?! They could damage the system there too!

A conspiracy theory? Really? The official Pentax line is: "SR makes noise, we think users don't like noise, we deactivate SR." They said it TWICE. Officially. On the record! How is that a conspiracy theory?

QuoteQuote:
Don't you get it? "SR makes noise during recording" is the company line. It's the line that management decided upon and PR trained every media-facing product manager and engineer to say when asked about it. They're choosing to say this because only a handful of people here and elsewhere will call them on it. The alternatives are, "We're just not that good at video" or "We don't have the resources necessary to devote to video" sounds much worse to the public.
That sounds like a conspiracy theory.

But yes, it's odd they don't offer the feature. Worse yet the reason they give for doing so is so silly. But it is what they said.

All the other features users want to see, in terms of video, could be hard to implement, they could be impossible to implement. I am fine with them not doing it. It is understandable. But SR?

Anyway, at this point I'm just really curious what is happening inside the minds at Ricoh. What are the true reasons, what went wrong.
03-05-2016, 07:00 PM   #154
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QuoteOriginally posted by grispie Quote
John,
Can you tell me what you use for more wideangle on mft?
I agree, the tones of your examples are very nice, but i guess the 28mm just gets too much crop to offer a nice wide view.
I saw that olympus offers a 17mm 1.8. I'd want a manual aperture for video though..
tnx

or someone else..
For wider angles I have the Panasonic 12-35mm F2.8. It's 24mm equivalent and quite nice. And it has Image Stablizatin.

QuoteOriginally posted by nevermindhim Quote
Again, you're displaying a complete misunderstanding of how sensor-shift SR works. The digital pipeline has absolutely no bearing on it. Sensor-shift stabilization is physical, just like optical stabilization; it is stabilizing the image where the light from the scene interacts with the sensor. There is no digital image processing involved and the amount of processing power required is *very* minimal (as it has only to do with the accelerometer data).

Obviously there's nothing to be gained by continuing to attempt to educate you on the subject. Good grief...
You really should apply for the lead engineer job at Pentax since you can make them competitive with video with less than $5 in parts and labor. I bow before your self-delusion.

03-06-2016, 09:25 AM   #155
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QuoteOriginally posted by kadajawi Quote
I didn't say clean HDMI was possible, did I? I said it would be nice if they provided it, especially since live view provides a stabilized view.

However, nothing about the pixel pipeline has anything to do with the camera stabilizing in live view and not in video mode. The fact is, the camera CAN stabilize a video feed (no matter what the quality is), and if there'd be any of your reasons, it shouldn't be. Camera overheats because of prolonged SR usage? People can use live view for a long time, and overheat the camera. SR won't last prolonged SR usage? Why not deactivate it in live view?! They could damage the system there too!

A conspiracy theory? Really? The official Pentax line is: "SR makes noise, we think users don't like noise, we deactivate SR." They said it TWICE. Officially. On the record! How is that a conspiracy theory?


That sounds like a conspiracy theory.

But yes, it's odd they don't offer the feature. Worse yet the reason they give for doing so is so silly. But it is what they said.

All the other features users want to see, in terms of video, could be hard to implement, they could be impossible to implement. I am fine with them not doing it. It is understandable. But SR?

Anyway, at this point I'm just really curious what is happening inside the minds at Ricoh. What are the true reasons, what went wrong.

You and others here continue to oversimplify the technical challenges and think that turning on SR during video is as simple as checking a box. "Nothing about the pixel pipeline has anything to do with the camera stabilizing in live view and not in video mode"? Are you sure about that? What about power draw? What about heat generation? The one commonality between the K-5 and the K-1 is the battery. But everything else has changed. So the K-5 was providing 2-axis stabilization for an APS-C sized sensor feeding a 16MP readout for processing. Now the K-1 is providing 5-axis stabilization for a FF-sized sensor feeding a 36MP readout for 1080p30 processing...with the same battery. Oh, and the LCD in the K-1 is bigger too with more pixels. And the K-1 has WiFi and GPS too. So are you sure that video SR is as simple as a checkbox?

I can hear the arguments already:

But it works in Live View!
The Live View screen is less than 1080p. We don't know the frame rate. There is no MP4/AVCHD encoding involved. There is no writeout to one or more SD card involved. How do these differences affect the power and heat requirements?

But newer technology draws less power!
True, but how much less? Does the new FF sensor draw less power than the K-5's 16MP sensor? What about heat? What about the new 5-axis SR stabilizing a bigger sensor? Does it draw more or less power than the K-5 system?


The funny thing is that if a Pentax engineer ever stumbled upon this thread they'd probably laugh at the oversimplifications being discussed here, including mine. The fact of the matter is that none of us here know what's going on, and to presume that we've found a smoking gun and that this video SR be done for $5 or less is ludicrous. As if the same engineers that are giving us 5 axis stabilization, Pixel Shift Resolution, and simulated AA are simultaneously brilliant and dumb.

I've never worked in consumer electronics or cameras, but I have participated in the implementation of complex technology. One project involved a state agency, the state's IT department, and no fewer than three external vendors, each supplying a technology piece. Something as simple as putting a checkbox on a website had technology repercussions that involved everyone at the table and every team had to A) make sure that their systems supported the change and B) that their systems were properly communicating that change to other vendors/participants. If you've ever been involved in complex tech projects, you know how seemingly simple tasks can often require a lot of work behind the scenes.
03-06-2016, 03:48 PM   #156
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QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
You and others here continue to oversimplify the technical challenges and think that turning on SR during video is as simple as checking a box. "Nothing about the pixel pipeline has anything to do with the camera stabilizing in live view and not in video mode"? Are you sure about that? What about power draw? What about heat generation? The one commonality between the K-5 and the K-1 is the battery. But everything else has changed. So the K-5 was providing 2-axis stabilization for an APS-C sized sensor feeding a 16MP readout for processing. Now the K-1 is providing 5-axis stabilization for a FF-sized sensor feeding a 36MP readout for 1080p30 processing...with the same battery. Oh, and the LCD in the K-1 is bigger too with more pixels. And the K-1 has WiFi and GPS too. So are you sure that video SR is as simple as a checkbox?

I can hear the arguments already:

But it works in Live View!
The Live View screen is less than 1080p. We don't know the frame rate. There is no MP4/AVCHD encoding involved. There is no writeout to one or more SD card involved. How do these differences affect the power and heat requirements?

But newer technology draws less power!
True, but how much less? Does the new FF sensor draw less power than the K-5's 16MP sensor? What about heat? What about the new 5-axis SR stabilizing a bigger sensor? Does it draw more or less power than the K-5 system?


The funny thing is that if a Pentax engineer ever stumbled upon this thread they'd probably laugh at the oversimplifications being discussed here, including mine. The fact of the matter is that none of us here know what's going on, and to presume that we've found a smoking gun and that this video SR be done for $5 or less is ludicrous. As if the same engineers that are giving us 5 axis stabilization, Pixel Shift Resolution, and simulated AA are simultaneously brilliant and dumb.

I've never worked in consumer electronics or cameras, but I have participated in the implementation of complex technology. One project involved a state agency, the state's IT department, and no fewer than three external vendors, each supplying a technology piece. Something as simple as putting a checkbox on a website had technology repercussions that involved everyone at the table and every team had to A) make sure that their systems supported the change and B) that their systems were properly communicating that change to other vendors/participants. If you've ever been involved in complex tech projects, you know how seemingly simple tasks can often require a lot of work behind the scenes.
What would be wrong with them saying "yeah, sorry, it gets a bit warm inside the camera, so we deactivate SR" (besides, it has to stay on to keep the sensor in position). What would be wrong with saying "battery life suffers"? How is insisting it is something that people call out as something they don't care about any better? Giving a technical explanation that makes sense, but doesn't affect stills shooters, seems like the more sensible approach, if that is really the reason.

Also, the processor has to do more work when doing movie SR. There's some complex stuff going on in there to calculate which part of the sensor to use. That consumes battery too, and it heats up the processor.

Oh, and of course I get pretty damn good battery life out of my K-5. With an old sensor, newer ones should be more power efficient, processors too. That's the general direction. But even if not, even if battery life suffers... Bring another battery with you. It's something users can adjust to. Our DJI Phantom can fly for 20 minutes on one battery. So what. We have a spare battery and just work around the limitation. It's a decision the user can make. Users who value battery life more can just keep SR off. No big deal.

I'm curious, is that 5 axis stabilizer actually capable of moving the sensor in 5 axes, or does it just have a gyroscope that can read those axis and then calculates the sensor movement accordingly? IIRC that was what Olympus did... (and the K-5 actually had 3 axis movement, it could rotate the sensor).

I wish a Pentax engineer stumbled upon this thread and could explain to us what the issue is. I am dying to know.

Btw., there's no way the K-5 did output a 16 MP image during video. It line skipped like crazy.

Oh, and... the Sony NEX 5, another 16 MP camera that came out around the time the K-5 came out, and may have a similarish sensor, heats up MUCH more than the K-5. Despite the lack of SR. I couldn't get my K-5 to shut down because of heat. Ever. Shooting with SR on under the sun in a country where it's 30°C in the shadows. For a prolonged time. Did the K-5 mind? Nope. And it still lives, after many, many hours of video (usually handheld, always with SR on) and close to 75k photos.
03-06-2016, 03:58 PM   #157
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Sensor Stabilisation is a physical process.


The sensor data is read off the sensor and handled by the processor at the same rate, and encoded/stored via the same process, whether the sensor is being held still or not.
They genuinely are two different things.


By removing it during video use, Pentax users have been rather screwed, with third party lens suppliers removing their optical stabilisation systems in Pentax mounts, assuming (quite understandably so) that Pentax handle stabilisation in body themselves.


But moving on from this, the fact remains that others can do it successfully. I genuinely don't care how it's done, and I don't pretend to know the ins and outs of it on the Pentax system.
Sony have it working on a FF sensor, Olympus on a m4/3 sensor. It can be done, and Pentax should be looking to do it.

This is a feature that they will need to address eventually, as they're not competitive as it stands presently.
03-06-2016, 05:23 PM   #158
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QuoteOriginally posted by richandfleur Quote
Sensor Stabilisation is a physical process.


The sensor data is read off the sensor and handled by the processor at the same rate, and encoded/stored via the same process, whether the sensor is being held still or not.
They genuinely are two different things.


By removing it during video use, Pentax users have been rather screwed, with third party lens suppliers removing their optical stabilisation systems in Pentax mounts, assuming (quite understandably so) that Pentax handle stabilisation in body themselves.


But moving on from this, the fact remains that others can do it successfully. I genuinely don't care how it's done, and I don't pretend to know the ins and outs of it on the Pentax system.
Sony have it working on a FF sensor, Olympus on a m4/3 sensor. It can be done, and Pentax should be looking to do it.

This is a feature that they will need to address eventually, as they're not competitive as it stands presently.
Correct.

However, if the present market pressure isn't enough to get Pentax to compete on video, then I don't know what could.

The window on 1080P only being acceptable on a spec sheet is closing rapidly, and moving to 4K *is* something that requires more processing power. So even if they K-1 II had better video features, it would still be obsolete next to the then current generation from the other brands.

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