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02-07-2017, 07:25 AM - 1 Like   #76
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QuoteOriginally posted by BrianR Quote
The poll was in the "Pentax DSLR Discussion" forum, and obviously limited to people registered on Pentax Forums. Who most likely use Pentax cameras. And "everyone knows Pentax doesn't do video", so it's from a population of people who likely already chose dslrs that don't do video.

Tongue firmly in cheek, but yes, some selection bias may be present in that poll
With all due respect to the prognosticators a poll with 100 respondents is better than a personal option. Which represents one possible. poll participant.

How much better is a 100 person poll? 100 times better.

As far as many of us are concerned that's the only data we have. Watching people trash it because it doesn't agree to their one person opinion is kind of amusing.

The reason we run these polls is because we want a broader opinion than one person droning on and on.

So did you really think one person going on and on is going to change anybody's mind? If we wanted one person opinion, we have thousands expressed of those there for the reading. We do polls because we aren't satisfied with that.

The only answer to a poor poll, is a better poll, not a personal tantrum.

02-07-2017, 07:46 AM - 1 Like   #77
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
With all due respect to the prognosticators a poll with 100 respondents is better than a personal option. Which represents one possible. poll participant.

How much better is a 100 person poll? 100 times better.

As far as many of us are concerned that's the only data we have. Watching people trash it because it doesn't agree to their one person opinion is kind of amusing.

The reason we run these polls is because we want a broader opinion than one person droning on and on.

So did you really think one person going on and on is going to change anybody's mind? If we wanted one person opinion, we have thousands expressed of those there for the reading. We do polls because we aren't satisfied with that.

The only answer to a poor poll, is a better poll, not a personal tantrum.
Sorry, my bad. We should not even mention the deficiencies of the poll and being made aware of selection bias was a wrong thing to do. For my transgression I can only offer an insincere apology, and that's my best offer.

Seriously, it's a poll with ~100 users from a Pentax dslr forum who voluntarily answered a question about whether they would buy a camera with video or not. Be aware of the polling method. Weight any conclusions you come to based on the methods. Take the same approach to every other poll, review, informal test etc... and you'll be less likely to be bamboozled (<-not a specific proclamation on the poll presented here, everyone is free to pass their own judgement it).
02-07-2017, 07:46 AM - 1 Like   #78
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Just to add some weight to the issue, last night I saw the gear my son researched and bought to video action sports, YouTube gear demonstrations and brief Snaps. This was a video 'kit' discounted to $3,149 because the body and lens are last-gen. Free Pentax wasn't even considered.

Canon D70
Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 IS
Canon EF-S 10-22mm f/3.5-4.5 USM
Canon EF 24-105mm f/4L IS USM
Rode VideoMic Pro / Windbuster
Manfrotto 055 XPRO legs and pan/tilt head (RC2?)
LowePro DSLR/Laptop Backpack

For his purposes the selfie swivel monitor matters for the Snapchats and short on-field commentaries. Lacrosse V-Loggers he said mostly shoot A7lls with a Loupe - the EVF doesn't cut it.

Last edited by monochrome; 02-07-2017 at 08:07 AM.
02-07-2017, 08:25 AM   #79
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Free Pentax wasn't even considered.
And this is why Pentax needs to step up their game. I suspect that in that "$3000 vs free" discussion, long-term viability had to play a major role. Yesterday, a friend was asking me for advice regarding a camera for his daughter's photography class. The teacher had suggested Canon Rebels. My friend's budget is $100-200. I told him that I could get him a great DSLR in that range...the K10D...but it doesn't do video. So I recommended that he get her a Lumix GH-2. Same price, but one does video and the other doesn't. It protects his investment.

02-07-2017, 08:33 AM   #80
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
How much better is a 100 person poll? 100 times better.
Projecting the findings of a 100-person self-selected poll onto the greater market is not 100 times better than a single person's opinion. Actually, it's probably worse because it feigns authority and statistical validity where none exists.
02-07-2017, 08:56 AM   #81
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QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
Projecting the findings of a 100-person self-selected poll onto the greater market is not 100 times better than a single person's opinion. Actually, it's probably worse because it feigns authority and statistical validity where none exists.
And that's one person's personal opinion.

I have no doubt there are better ways to conduct a poll.
However your assertion that it's worse than a personal opinion is completely unsupported.
Usually what happens with this type of data, is the data is further refined by further research. It's rare the original data gets completely tossed.

If you really want to say the poll is in some way inaccurate, run a better poll. Odds are it will come out pretty much the same as this one, although there is a possibility another poll might contradict it.

Having data is always preferred to personal anecdotes. Personal anecdotes provide insight in to what you might want to test for, but they are not data in themselves.

Sometimes the cost of doing a proper test is more expensive than the info is worth to you. That's why it's usually done by marketing departments not individuals, and kept under lock and key. You don't want to give your competitors to the research you use to define your space in the market.

So you have to ask yourself, what does Ricoh marketing know that you don't?

One thing might be, the huge bank of legacy glass and it's place in selling Pentax gear. I'm not sure that a lot of that glass is what folks would want to use for 4k video. How many cameras could Pentax sell without using legacy glass as a selling point? Not very many.

I bought my K-1 in part because I found a Tamron 300 tha would work with my 1.7x converter to give me decent telephoto options. Without that, Pentax wouldn't have been able to sell me a K-1. But would a videographer be happy with that combination? An old noisey screw drive lens?

The question asked by Ricoh marketing is going to be are we going to make more money selling Pentax a legacy DSLR company and bringing newer technologies like video into the Ricoh line. Personally I think that's what their market research has told them, based on their behaviour, and our little straw poll here on the forum would tend to back that up.

Pentax's current market perception is probably solid, conservative, behind the curve for options, but ahead of the curve in IQ per dollar, you have to be a fan of legacy glass to really appreciate it.

Canon and Nikon

Trying to maintain cutting edge performance in all aspects.
Cheap plastic feel to lower end models but solid high end.
Ahead of the curve in options, AF speed, video, fps in their high end models. Average performance on base models.

What would it cost to bring Pentax up t speed with Canon and Nikon? Apparently about 1.4 billion. Just adding faster 4k video and convincing a very few video graphers to switch won't cover that.

But we digress, is anyone else going to post some spectacular 4k video?

I need something I can load onto my wife new iMac to show her how great 4k video is.

SO far I'm having trouble getting approval form the House Appropriations Committee for a camera capable of 4k video..

Until I can see something where she says " I wish I could do something like that." and it's just some guy who bought a still camera, not a video professional, it's a lot cause.

Come on guys, help me out here.

Last edited by normhead; 02-07-2017 at 09:29 AM.
02-07-2017, 09:17 AM   #82
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
And that's one person's personal opinion.

I have no doubt there are better ways to conduct a poll.
However your assertion that it's worse than a personal opinion is completely unsupported.
Someone used a poll of 100 members of PentaxForum members to conclude that the greater dSLR and mirrorless market does not use or want video. That is very different than saying, "I don't want video features on my dSLR" because it attempts to cross over from opinion to verifiable fact. And as they say, you are welcome to your own opinions but you are not welcome to your own facts.

The people in this thread that pointed out the small sample and selection bias were right to do so. It was the wrong conclusion to draw from the data.

02-07-2017, 09:21 AM   #83
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QuoteOriginally posted by TaoMaas Quote
And this is why Pentax needs to step up their game. I suspect that in that "$3000 vs free" discussion, long-term viability had to play a major role. Yesterday, a friend was asking me for advice regarding a camera for his daughter's photography class. The teacher had suggested Canon Rebels. My friend's budget is $100-200. I told him that I could get him a great DSLR in that range...the K10D...but it doesn't do video. So I recommended that he get her a Lumix GH-2. Same price, but one does video and the other doesn't. It protects his investment.
Real world, for many users and uses, dSLR video legitimately does matter. It doesn't matter to me, but I don't think my son, his wife and their infants (since he owns the company this camera will also see some home use) think they made a bad decision. In fact they're convinced they made a well-researched value purchase that meets all their needs.
02-07-2017, 09:32 AM   #84
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
...I don't think my son, his wife and their infants (since he owns the company this camera will also see some home use) think they made a bad decision. In fact they're convinced they made a well-researched value purchase that meets all their needs.
I'm sure they think they made the right decision. Heck, most folks do, don't they? On the other hand, I talked to a couple of high school kids this weekend whose dad had bought a Hero 5 plus a very expensive gimbal for home videos and YouTube work. I think they had about $1000 in the rig. What else could you buy for $2000 to add to that?
02-07-2017, 10:33 AM   #85
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QuoteOriginally posted by TaoMaas Quote
I'm sure they think they made the right decision. Heck, most folks do, don't they? On the other hand, I talked to a couple of high school kids this weekend whose dad had bought a Hero 5 plus a very expensive gimbal for home videos and YouTube work. I think they had about $1000 in the rig. What else could you buy for $2000 to add to that?
He clips his Hero to the strap on the backpack

My point is Pentax can be right and have 4% market share, or sell a lot more cameras.
02-07-2017, 10:49 AM   #86
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
My point is Pentax can be right and have 4% market share, or sell a lot more cameras.
Very true.
02-07-2017, 10:49 AM - 1 Like   #87
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
He clips his Hero to the strap on the backpack

My point is Pentax can be right and have 4% market share, or sell a lot more cameras.
Except for the part where you haven't established;ished they's sell a lot more cameras.
As I said, add 4k video and $250 to the price and you've lost my K-1 sale. You don't have to show they would sell cameras to different people. You have to show they'd sell to more new people than they'd lose to the higher prices.

Although as a characteristic, I've notice people seem to thing the 4k videos would be free.
02-07-2017, 01:36 PM   #88
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The point of my post has been missed by quite a few here. As you can see - I have already pointed out a better poll is needed. And, probably not on PF.

QuoteOriginally posted by MarkJerling Quote
If you want a poll as to how many DSLR buyers would like good quality video or 4K video you'll have to create that poll yourself! It is likely to be well less than 20%. If you want a better representation, you'd have to go to the largest videographers forum you can find and ask those members how many of them shoot video with a DSLR.
02-07-2017, 01:43 PM   #89
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Although as a characteristic, I've notice people seem to thing the 4k videos would be free.
We're singing off the same song sheet Norm! I have no interest in paying for 4K video in my DSLR!
02-07-2017, 01:50 PM   #90
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Except for the part where you haven't established;ished they's sell a lot more cameras.
As I said, add 4k video and $250 to the price and you've lost my K-1 sale. You don't have to show they would sell cameras to different people. You have to show they'd sell to more new people than they'd lose to the higher prices.

Although as a characteristic, I've notice people seem to thing the 4k videos would be free.
I don't really disagree with you Norm. The dissonance between your (and my) opinion and many others' when discussing video is over 'right' rather than over 'many cameras'. Pentax is not Canon and will never commit the resources to support a 'many cameras' business model. Others often assume Pentax must sell 'many cameras'.

K-1 is a tremendous value, but few know it because one of the 'costs' of the low 'price' is we don't pay Ricoh to tell the next guy about Pentax when we buy one of their products. Ricoh technically could put cutting-edge video in their next camera, but few buyers would ever know.

I don't know what the answer is, but as long as I can still buy Pentax I'm undecided whether I even care. Maybe in context that makes Pentax 'right'.
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