[filmamigo]

We all know Pentax's video efforts could be better. Unfortunately I now fear any "improvements" Pentax will make to video. Twice, Pentax made video LESS useful and LESS attractive for professsional users, because they listened to complaints from un-informed reviewers.

Specifically, reviewers complained:

"Pentax uses old fashioned MJPEG compression on their video. All the kids want H.264 these days!"

MJPEG is so old fashioned that Canon offers it at 500mbps on the 5D Mk IV. It's a format that preserves image quality, has good colour depth, and can be readily edited on professional NLEs. If Pentax wanted to modernize the compression, they should have moved to ProRes, like all the pro/semi pro cameras have. Instead, they listened to the mob and went heavily-compressed H.264. Result: they lost any high-end appeal, and even the uninformed reviewers say "gee, Pentax video quality looks terrible, don't buy Pentax if you want video. Get a Panasonic or Canon instead."

Secondly, reviewers complained:

"Pentax in-body image stabilisation makes a funny buzzing and clanking sound when shooting video. Terrible!"

But the in-body stabilisation was the BEST in the business for video. I have professional shooters who were amazed at the smooth tracking results from handheld Pentax footage. As for the audio --- professionals never use the audio from in-camera mics. Audio is taken either with auxilliary mics plugged into the camera, or recorded on a separate audio recorder. So the in-camera mic issue was never an issue for them. For the non-professionals, Pentax simply defaulted the stabilisation to OFF when shooting video. Problem fixed. But no.... Pentax went ahead and REMOVED in-body stabilisation from video mode, replacing it with a useless and very low quality "on-sensor" stabilisation. Why not at least give users the choice -- move the sensor and risk hearing it on the mic, or choose crappy on-sensor mode for silence?

To win at video, Pentax (or any camera company) needs to provide only these things:

• Frame rates: 24 fps, 25 fps, 30 fps and 60 fps
• Resolutions: 1080P and/or 4k
• High quality codec that supports video editing, i.e. ProRes
• Real image stabilization (optical or moving the sensor)
• Manual exposure controls (shutter speed, aperture, ISO)
• Zebra stripes for over/underexposure
• Focus peaking
• Audio input jack
• Headphone / audio output jack
• Clean HDMI video output - FULL RESOLUTION, with no overlays of info (so you can record on a different recorder if you want)

That's literally it -- the complete recipe for video domination!

[Steve.Ledger]

Correct and nicely summed up.

[Michi Joel]

+1!!!

[Adam]

I totally agree on the SR point. They are pretty close otherwise. Even if they continue using the current poor codec, mechanical SR would make a world of a difference.

Adam
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[THoog]

Isn't the H.264 codec provided "off the shelf" by Fujitsu/SocioNext with the PRIME (Milbeaut) image processor? I'm recalling a Fujitsu whitepaper where they were quite proud of their proprietary H.264 codec, introduced with the sixth-generation MB91696AM in 2011 (which I assume became the PRIME M in 2012's K-01 and K-30, the first Pentax cameras to have H.264).

[BROO]

Isn't the H.264 codec provided "off the shelf" by Fujitsu/SocioNext with the PRIME (Milbeaut) image processor? I'm recalling a Fujitsu whitepaper where they were quite proud of their proprietary H.264 codec, introduced with the sixth-generation MB91696AM in 2011 (which I assume became the PRIME M in 2012's K-01 and K-30, the first Pentax cameras to have H.264).

Hi Guys,Just wondering if I could put out a thought bubble here?
Any chance Pentax could produce a video dedicated body?(I'm thinking Canon XC10 here).
Maybe a mirrorless aspc size camera with a 16mp sensor and without OVF. Perhaps something similar to the K01 in some ways but primarily dedicated to video and capable of accepting K series lenses. Add a 18-50mm PLM zoom lens to go with the 55-300 PLM.
I suspect the reason why Pentax lags in the video department is because of the costs involved in developing a camera that is excellent at both still and video and the resulting high sale price of the product.
If Pentax could land a product like this- with industry leading video quality- on the shelf for USD1500 then I would buy it. I like my K1 stills but video is something that I would like to explore more.....(and I will explore it with the K1 for now)
And there is a chance that the young ones might see this Pentax video camera as sexy and "discover" the brand.....
Anyhow just a thought?

[THoog]

Hi Guys,Just wondering if I could put out a thought bubble here?
Any chance Pentax could produce a video dedicated body?(I'm thinking Canon XC10 here).
Maybe a mirrorless aspc size camera with a 16mp sensor and without OVF. Perhaps something similar to the K01 in some ways but primarily dedicated to video and capable of accepting K series lenses. Add a 18-50mm PLM zoom lens to go with the 55-300 PLM.
I suspect the reason why Pentax lags in the video department is because of the costs involved in developing a camera that is excellent at both still and video and the resulting high sale price of the product.
If Pentax could land a product like this- with industry leading video quality- on the shelf for USD1500 then I would buy it. I like my K1 stills but video is something that I would like to explore more.....(and I will explore it with the K1 for now)
And there is a chance that the young ones might see this Pentax video camera as sexy and "discover" the brand.....
Anyhow just a thought?

It won't happen. The video capabilities in Pentax DSLRs appear to be bought "off-the-shelf" - whatever SocioNext builds into the Milbeaut image processor - and it always lags behind Sony/Panasonic/Canon. Pentax would have to start from scratch with a completely different processor architecture, learn video and catch up with S/P/C all in one go, AND provide something that S/P/C doesn't (something more than "use classic K-mount lenses" - S/P/C can do that NOW). It would require a huge investment to jump into a highly competitive market segment that Pentax doesn't have experience or interest in. They simply don't have the cash lying around for that kind of risk.

---

Last edited by THoog; 02-10-2017 at 11:46 AM.

[filmamigo]

OK, I used some hyperbole - to attract attention to the conversation.

Is Pentax going to "win"? Is it going to displace Canon and Panasonic in the video/DSLR category? Not likely.

But the features needed in order to provide a reasonable offering, that doesn't push away video shooters, aren't complicated unknowns. Pentax, or any camera company, can take my list and deliver a respectable video camera.

Video/motion picture film shooters are a bit nomadic -- for decades they were asked to pay tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars for cameras (or more likely, rent.) The more recent move to Canon or Panasonic DSLR cameras was not "obvious" or pre-destined. It happened because these cameras provided the bare minimum needed (see my list) and offered a unique look (large sensor video with shallow depth of field.) Filmmakers put up with a lot of crap to do it -- shooting a DSLR (or micro 4/3) for video is not intuitive or purpose-built. That's why dedicated motion picture cameras are still made. But video DSLRs are cheaper, offer access to lots of cool glass, and have a good look. If you are a poor filmmaker, or prone to experimentation, why not go for video DSLR? It's this attitude that makes me not want Pentax to give up. If Pentax makes a few tweaks to ensure that the necessary features are present and work correctly, filmmakers will take a risk. Others, who shoot stills but want to be able to occassionally shoot a nice YouTube clip, won't needlessly be driven away from the brand.

[PiDicus Rex]

To win at video, Pentax (or any camera company) needs to provide only these things:
Frame rates: 24 fps, 25 fps, 30 fps and 60 fps
Resolutions: 1080P and/or 4k High quality codec that supports video editing, i.e. ProRes
Real image stabilization (optical or moving the sensor)
Manual exposure controls (shutter speed, aperture, ISO)
Zebra stripes for over/underexposure
Focus peaking
Audio input jack Headphone / audio output jack
Clean HDMI video output - FULL RESOLUTION, with no overlays of info (so you can record on a different recorder if you want)

Yes to most, but, the 4K thing, they could easily go the route of the A7s, where 4K was only direct output to HDMI, and not worry about recording in the body.
Yes, 4K is needed in the specs soon, but quality recordable output on the HDMI was needed the moment the K-01 launched with a HDMI port.

[richandfleur]

The reality is Pentax haven't touched their video offering significantly in 5 years now. Even playing catchup to the back of the pack needs to happen one day, as they're looking ridiculous now.

Return the SR, or acknowledge that it can't be don't well with their particular system. At least 3 other companies can do it well during video, and it should be a Pentax strength (given how long they've had this ability - dating back to the K-7 / K-5).
This alone would get a lot of people (ie me so at least 1) interested in buying a new Pentax body.


Likewise the bitrate, which again hasn't changed since 2012.


Basically this:

--> 2012 K-7 / K-5, Mechanical SR, MJPEG

2012 --> K-01 / K-30, No Mechanical SR, H.264, Bit Rate of around 18Mbps, 24fps, Focus Peaking - but not when recording.


Add in a bit about the K-70 having continuous AF, and the K-3 picking up some ugly 1080i resolution at a slightly higher fps, but nothing has really changed.
Even if you buy a K-1 you're still getting K-30 video from it.

Actually look at the 645Z who tried to use the first MF with video as a marketing approach, which worked right up until someone looked at the quality of the video.

It's an embarrassment and Pentax needs to wake up to that.


As above, they need to catch up even to remain semi close in 2017, not to lead the pack. Change must be coming within the next 2 years, as 4K becomes the new base standard.
One can only assume Pentax will implement any included native features of the next processing chip that they use, so whatever that offers out of the box will be what Pentax roll with.
One also assumes SR is separate to the processing chip, so they should be looking at that. If it creates some noise, then have it off by default, and put a warning in the menu if users want to turn it on.


None of this stops you using the video you have, but some basic tweaks would make it a lot more useful.
Right now it's ok for externally stabilised recording ('Movie SR' definitely turned off) or tripod, and for scenes where there's not much movement. Kinda like stills really I guess. Good for landscape work, but don't expect tracking AF.

[THoog]

Add in a bit about the K-70 having continuous AF, and the K-3 picking up some ugly 1080i resolution at a slightly higher fps, but nothing has really changed.

And yet, what improvements there were, always came after Fujitsu/SocioNext announced them in the Milbeaut. I think the folks that demand that Pentax improve their video are over-estimating Pentax' involvement. They provide menu options for the video features built into the processor, and that's about it. Codecs, resolution/framerate, bitrate - Pentax is entirely dependent on their supplier.

One can only assume Pentax will implement any included native features of the next processing chip that they use, so whatever that offers out of the box will be what Pentax roll with.

SocioNext announced 4K in the Milbeaut in October 2015. Nikon announced 4K in the D500 about six months later, but they appear to have a closer relationship to Fujitsu/SocioNext than Pentax. I was a little surprised that 4K did not appear in either the K-70 or KP, but it looks like it takes Pentax at least a year to adopt a new processor (and it's said that the KP was delayed). Even then, of the three processor models SocioNext currently lists for digital cameras, only one has 4K. I assume a "PRIME V" will have 4K video, but I wouldn't expect it to have anything the MB86S27 doesn't have.

http://www.socionext.com/en/download/catalog/AD04-00104-1E.pdf

One also assumes SR is separate to the processing chip, so they should be looking at that. If it creates some noise, then have it off by default, and put a warning in the menu if users want to turn it on.

The datasheets for the Milbeaut list "video stabilization" or "image stabilizer for movie" among the built-in video features. This suggests that it's something else that Pentax has little-to-no involvement in, apart from options to turn it on/off. Like implementing a better codec or USB3, not only would mechanical SR during video have technical challenges, it would mean reinventing something that they are already buying "off-the-shelf" in the processor (however poor the off-the-shelf version is). I'm not saying they shouldn't, just reaching for an explanation why they don't.

[richandfleur]

Would you accept a SR system that causes the sensor to overheat after <10min of use?

Yes.


The type of content I use the video mode for would be fine with this.

eg this, made from a bunch of small clips:

Vimeo

[Steve.Ledger]

Yes.


The type of content I use the video mode for would be fine with this.

eg this, made from a bunch of small clips:

Absolutely agree!
Continuously shooting for a 10 minute period has never happened in all the years I have shot any video, even with a *proper video camera*.
We're not talking about using a Pentax DSLR to shoot a a two hour concert, theatre or full lecture.. That would not be a normal or common requirement.

[richandfleur]

We're not talking about using a Pentax DSLR to shoot a a two hour concert, theatre or full lecture.. That would not be a normal or common requirement.

Indeed, those types of situations would be far more suited to a tripod mounted handicam.

[richandfleur]

Lets address a few points from the post above...


Pentax had SR working on the K-7 and K-5 range of cameras.


Pentax is still using the same video package from 2012, but their processors have improved. I'm sure there's room to squeeze a bit more out of them now.