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03-11-2017, 04:42 AM   #1
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Firmware update for shake reduktion in videomode. K-1 and KP.

Does anyone has a hint when the firmware update for K-1 an KP will come?
And how good will the shake-reduction in videomode be?

For stills I read somewhere that Pentax new SR-system is better then Canons in-lens SR. Does that goes for video also?

Since I used a Canon C100 with stabilized 24-105/f4, I have a reference there. I also read that the Canon stab. system wasnt so good for video and that new videocameras with IBIS are better. You agree? I have nothing else to compare with, but I think the Canon SR-system in lens and with C100 made a very good job.

What do you think about other qualities of the videofiles of K-1?
I must say that the files from Canon C100 has very nice colours and feeling. Can a dslr for stills compete with that? Is it also depending on the firmware or has the C100 completely different hardware compared to Canons dslr?

03-11-2017, 07:30 AM   #2
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QuoteOriginally posted by mrmentera Quote
What do you think about other qualities of the videofiles of K-1?
It depends on your intended use of the video. Personally, I find the video files taken for family and friends
meet my standards. My use is not for broadcast, and is not shot in low-light situations. The K-1, IMO, is easy
to set up and use in video mode. However, YMMV.
03-11-2017, 01:12 PM - 1 Like   #3
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QuoteOriginally posted by mrmentera Quote
For stills I read somewhere that Pentax new SR-system is better then Canons in-lens SR. Does that goes for video also?
Video is a series of 'stills'..

BTW: Than
03-11-2017, 02:52 PM   #4
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QuoteOriginally posted by jlstrawman Quote
It depends on your intended use of the video. Personally, I find the video files taken for family and friends
meet my standards. My use is not for broadcast, and is not shot in low-light situations. The K-1, IMO, is easy
to set up and use in video mode. However, YMMV.
Yes, I think its very easy o set up, in manual mode. Also the sound when you use an external microphone. But I want to hear the videonerds say something about the aesthetics of the videoperformance of K-1. Maybe Ricoh will put some other videoformat in the firmware than the compressed mp4 also? Is that possible?
One thing that really sucks compared to tha Canon C100 is the autofocus while filming. The C100 seem to have the dualpixel PDAF that doesnt hunt. The K-1 have only contrastfocus and itīs impossible to use it while filming.

---------- Post added 03-11-2017 at 10:57 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Steve.Ledger Quote
Video is a series of 'stills'..
I hope itīs so simple.
But I think videocameras software is something slightly different. I still want to hear what the "videopeople" says. But maybe there arent any of them using Pentax...


Last edited by mrmentera; 03-11-2017 at 03:01 PM.
03-11-2017, 04:02 PM   #5
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QuoteOriginally posted by mrmentera Quote
I hope itīs so simple.
But I think videocameras software is something slightly different. I still want to hear what the "videopeople" says. But maybe there arent any of them using Pentax...
'Video people' do use Pentax DSLR cameras and many will be using them on a rig with a gimble. Even the earlier Pentax DSLRs which had the sensor shift SR for video.
But SR isn't everything.

See Uncle Jack

And the making of Uncle Jack
03-12-2017, 06:07 AM   #6
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QuoteOriginally posted by mrmentera Quote
I must say that the files from Canon C100 has very nice colours and feeling. Can a dslr for stills compete with that? Is it also depending on the firmware or has the C100 completely different hardware compared to Canons dslr?
The C100 is basically 7D level hardware, with some extras, like XLR inputs, and decent HDMI output.
It's not till you jump to the C300 that Canon made a serious effort - it's a much better camera then the C100.

All of that range, C100, C300 and C500, suffer from Canon's self indulgence in over-pricing.
The new C700GS - I could by SIX Aja Cions, and the five PC's to do raw recording from the camera on a Kona4 card, for the same price as One C700GS.
And the camera only has 2 more stops dynamic range, which any decent Cinematographer could get around with good lighting.
I could buy Five Sony FS7's with the Sony Raw Recorder, for the same price as one C700
(GS is the Global Shutter variant)

QuoteOriginally posted by mrmentera Quote
Does anyone has a hint when the firmware update for K-1 an KP will come? And how good will the shake-reduction in videomode be?
Same question here.
I know from a recent test, that the K-1's HDMI is useless to me, but if the Slimport output on the KP is properly recordable, 1080p at 24fps and 25fps,.. Then it'll probably be my next camera after the firmware drops.
I can survive without 4K for a little while longer, especially if I can record Externally at ISO 6400 - I have a feature film lined up that I was looking at either a Cion or an FS7, that films been delayed, but with a KP, I could easily shoot the promos and teasers of some of the night time scenes, I just need to be able to record it to a decent CoDec, like the Shogun does in ProRes and DNxHD.

QuoteOriginally posted by mrmentera Quote
But I want to hear the videonerds say something about the aesthetics of the video performance of K-1
Pffft, Full Frame Video is a fad.
APSc matches Super35, so the footage can blend better.
Iff Pentax fixed the HDMI, I could probably shoot with a K-1, so long as I cropped down to APSc image circle size.
But, the KP already showed better low-light, so for video, I'd wait for the K-1ii

Where the real gains could be made with FF, is to use a 645-to-K speedbooster, and try emulate the '70mm look'.
Or, if the 645z got recordable HDMI output at 4K,.... lets just say, they'd run out of stock.
Would not even need to record internally, just output at 4K.

Last edited by PiDicus Rex; 03-12-2017 at 06:14 AM.
03-12-2017, 06:30 AM   #7
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Thanks Steve. I remember that film.
Another question. Did the more uncompressed fileformat of K-7 and K-5 had more useful information for postprocessing than K-1īs mp4?

Why Iīm asking for what the "videopeople" or "videonerds" say and think is only because I donīt see so much discussion about making video with K-1 or other Pentax cameras. This videosection of the forum doesnīt have so much activity as I expected. Then I also seen a lot of reviews where they are scornful to the K-1īs videomode.
I started a videocourse also and getting more and more into video. Was thinking if I had to change system just because I get higher demands for videofunctions. I want to avoid that cause I have invested in so many great pentaxlenses that render skintones so nice. With those lenses and a good camera to record, you could create great, artful video. Of course, you can use those lenses on the C100 with adapter, but then you cant use the fantastic pdaf.

I was very excited also when I heard ricoh will give us SR! The digital sr was a joke.

The Canon C100 was a dream and I havent compared K-1 with 5D MkIII. But it made me start thinking of the difference in hardware and software between dslr and more dedicated videocameras. The c100 has a fan that cools the sensor f.ex. Is it a problem with K-1, that it looses colours when filming longer periods?

So what you think Steve, is that the K-1 is on pair with Canon 5D MkIII, Canon 70-80D and Panasonic m4/3 when it comes to the eastethics of videofiles? (Up to 30 fps 1080p) And the critic is exaggarated?

Finally. When do you guys think that K-mount have a camera with pdaf while filming, and at least 60 fps 1080p? I hope I soon got one with great mechanical SR (K-1). The sound I record with external mic or a soundunit like Zoom, like most "videopeople".

---------- Post added 03-12-2017 at 02:32 PM ----------

Thanks Pidicus! I was writing my latest post while you answered.

QuoteOriginally posted by PiDicus Rex Quote
The C100 is basically 7D level hardware, with some extras, like XLR inputs, and decent HDMI output.
It's not till you jump to the C300 that Canon made a serious effort - it's a much better camera then the C100.

All of that range, C100, C300 and C500, suffer from Canon's self indulgence in over-pricing.
The new C700GS - I could by SIX Aja Cions, and the five PC's to do raw recording from the camera on a Kona4 card, for the same price as One C700GS.
And the camera only has 2 more stops dynamic range, which any decent Cinematographer could get around with good lighting.
I could buy Five Sony FS7's with the Sony Raw Recorder, for the same price as one C700
(GS is the Global Shutter variant)


Same question here.
I know from a recent test, that the K-1's HDMI is useless to me, but if the Slimport output on the KP is properly recordable, 1080p at 24fps and 25fps,.. Then it'll probably be my next camera after the firmware drops.
I can survive without 4K for a little while longer, especially if I can record Externally at ISO 6400 - I have a feature film lined up that I was looking at either a Cion or an FS7, that films been delayed, but with a KP, I could easily shoot the promos and teasers of some of the night time scenes, I just need to be able to record it to a decent CoDec, like the Shogun does in ProRes and DNxHD.


Pffft, Full Frame Video is a fad.
APSc matches Super35, so the footage can blend better.
Iff Pentax fixed the HDMI, I could probably shoot with a K-1, so long as I cropped down to APSc image circle size.
But, the KP already showed better low-light, so for video, I'd wait for the K-1ii

Where the real gains could be made with FF, is to use a 645-to-K speedbooster, and try emulate the '70mm look'.
Or, if the 645z got recordable HDMI output at 4K,.... lets just say, they'd run out of stock.
Would not even need to record internally, just output at 4K.


---------- Post added 03-12-2017 at 03:01 PM ----------

Thanks again PiDicus Rex.
This was the kind of information and reasoning I was searching for. Now I understand more what the C100 is also. Makes me even more disappointed on the old hardware in K-1. But itīs relatively cheap, so..

But doesnt FF video compared to aps video gives the same big advantage when it comes to noise and iso as for stills? I mean, the a7s is used by pros in many situations. And the bigger sensor must give SOMETHING to the eastethic also, or???!

03-12-2017, 08:20 AM - 1 Like   #8
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Probably some time in April.. there was a post by asahiman that said there was a firmware coming in a couple of months (iirc) and that was posted a month ago. So soonish..
03-12-2017, 01:23 PM - 1 Like   #9
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QuoteOriginally posted by mrmentera Quote
I also seen a lot of reviews where they are scornful to the K-1īs videomode.
And I agree with almost all of them.

QuoteOriginally posted by mrmentera Quote
Is it a problem with K-1, that it looses colours when filming longer periods?
Never heard of that ever happening.
Understanding Digital Camera Sensors


QuoteOriginally posted by mrmentera Quote
So what you think Steve, is that the K-1 is on pair with Canon 5D MkIII, Canon 70-80D and Panasonic m4/3 when it comes to the eastethics of videofiles? (Up to 30 fps 1080p) And the critic is exaggarated?
K-1 would not be a wise choice and certainly no Pentax DSLR can match Panasonic M4/3 (and now Olympus M4/3)
03-15-2017, 09:49 PM   #10
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QuoteOriginally posted by mrmentera Quote
is that the K-1 is on pair with Canon 5D MkIII, Canon 70-80D and Panasonic m4/3 when it comes to the eastethics of videofiles?
I would expect that at HD resolutions, the K-1 would be the equal of the 5D3, when the Canon is using it's normal h264 encoding.
Once the Canon is switched to 'All I-Frame' with it's higher datarate, the Canon would retain more of the image detail in the files, but,...

I haven't had chance to pull apart K-1 files, but I would expect Pentax to have pulled it's usual act of recording data outside the IRE limits for video signals, which means the K-1 will retain it's full dynamic range in video, where most DSLR's 'clip' the signals down to IRE levels, throwing away two or more stops of dynamic range in the process.

The 5D2 and 5D3 for example, are only 12 stops dynamic range in Stills (yeah, a full stop behind the K-01, K-30 etc, and even more behind the K-1), but with the extra detail lost in the video signal clipping, they're only 9 stops range in video.

(The comparison tool on DXOMark's website shows the K-1 is far superior to the 5D3, for every area of Still performance except buffer size)

This is one of the main reasons why Pentax's video performance is so disappointing in other areas - They keep the dynamic range for highlights and shadows, and then throw it away with the over-compression in the h.264.
The KP's reported higher Datarate, jumping from 19mbits to 24mbits, should help retain more of that information. It's still nowhere near high enough - for HD you really want 45 to 50mbits, and a minimum of 100mbits for 4K, preferably 200mbits.

For reference - 200mbits is around 25megabytes per second, well under what any decent UHS1 spec SD-XC card can write at.
The cards recommended for HD CineDNG Raw in the BMD Pocket Cine Camera, write at 95MB/s, nearly 4 times as fast as what is required for 200mbits.

Aesthetics,... comparing the K-1 against a GH4 or the new GH5 for the 'look' of the footage is a subjective matter, and not a quality matter.

FF video is somewhere between s35 and 70mm in 'look', whereas the GH4, and the BMD Pocket and Cine cameras, are closer to 16mm film in their look.
APS-c is pretty much the same look at s35, with very similar crop factor.

QuoteOriginally posted by mrmentera Quote
But doesnt FF video compared to aps video gives the same big advantage when it comes to noise and iso as for stills? I mean, the a7s is used by pros in many situations. And the bigger sensor must give SOMETHING to the eastethic also, or???!
I've used the A7s for video, it's a shallower DoF look, and once in sLog and using an external recorder, the footage is very good.
Noise levels in the image, it's not the size of the sensor, but the size of the individual photosites on the sensor that affect it.
The A7s has massive photosites compared to every other FF camera - it's only 12megapixel, where other FF's are 24, 36, and 50.
Not only does the size of those photosites determine the light sensitivity, but when used in decent lighting, it leads to an improved Signal to Noise performance.
So the A7s will have a cleaner image, where other FF cameras have the same noise levels as APS-c cameras.



Iff I was spending my own money, and buying a new DSLR or Mirrorless camera for what I do, the A7s is top of my list, followed by the GH4. The reason for this is, that I can take advantage of 4K recorded externally to increase the quality of the HD delivery.

If I was going to stay with 'only' HD, those two choices would be joined by K-1 or KP, if I could record externally to ProRes or DNxHD files. That is currently not possible with the K-1, and unconfirmed with the KP.

QuoteOriginally posted by mrmentera Quote
The c100 has a fan that cools the sensor f.ex. Is it a problem with K-1, that it looses colours when filming longer periods?
I wouldn't worry about heat when filming with Any Pentax,... I know what it took to make my K-01 overheat, and the K-1 is much newer tech, I'd expect it's resistance to heat to be far superior.
Camera's like the C100, BMD's Cine Cam and Ursa range, all have fans and large heatsinks because they use a Peltier Cooler to chill the sensor for lower noise in the video signals.
Those cameras also do not apply any noise correction to the recorded files, as it would be expected for it to be done in post-production.

Last edited by PiDicus Rex; 03-15-2017 at 09:58 PM.
03-20-2017, 08:40 AM   #11
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QuoteOriginally posted by PiDicus Rex Quote
Noise levels in the image, it's not the size of the sensor, but the size of the individual photosites on the sensor that affect it.
The A7s has massive photosites compared to every other FF camera - it's only 12megapixel, where other FF's are 24, 36, and 50.
Not only does the size of those photosites determine the light sensitivity, but when used in decent lighting, it leads to an improved Signal to Noise performance.
So the A7s will have a cleaner image, where other FF cameras have the same noise levels as APS-c cameras.
But isnīt it the bigger sensorarea (also) that gives FF a better signal/noise ratio? For the same angle of view you use more area for gathering the light, (at a longer focal length).

For stills I learned that it is 1-3 stops better, and that is if you compare the same pixel density. The Sony 16 mpix sensor (K-5) to the Sony 36 mpix sensor (K-1) f.ex.
If you see the points on Dxomarks, the K-1 has a BETTER low-light/ISO-value than a7s II! Btw, why is a7s so superior to the a7s II?

Pentax K-1 vs Sony A7S II vs Sony A7S

Thanks for your very useful answer PiDicus Rex.

---------- Post added 03-20-2017 at 04:57 PM ----------

Have Sony paid Dxomark something? Isnīt it a strange way to express that the newer and much more expensive camera actually is a step (several?) backwards? :P

Comparison 1: Sony A7S II versus Sony A7S versus Sony A7R II: Impressive high ISO DR - DxOMark

Comparison 1: Sony A7S II versus Sony A7S versus Sony A7R II: Impressive high ISO DR - DxOMark

Excellent?

Measurements: Excellent low-light score - DxOMark

Last edited by mrmentera; 03-20-2017 at 10:27 AM.
03-22-2017, 08:33 AM   #12
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QuoteOriginally posted by mrmentera Quote
But isnīt it the bigger sensor area (also) that gives FF a better signal/noise ratio? For the same angle of view you use more area for gathering the light, (at a longer focal length).
The S/N ratio is more a function of the pixel size, then the size of the sensor.
The A7s with it's FF sensor, is 'only' a 12Mp camera. This is because the photosites on it's sensor (aka, the pixels,..) are Huuuuuuge compared to most APSc and FF cameras.
This gives it it's low-light performance, and when used in normal or well lit conditions, at low ISO ranges, gives it much better S/N characteristics, because it can gather more light in the same shutter opening to create the information it processes.

Think of it this way,... Each pixel is a bucket gathering light. The ripples on the surface of the buckets contents, that's the signal noise.
If the ripples are the same height as the bucket is deep, you have a lot of noise in the signal.
But if the filled bucket is 100 times deeper then the ripples, you got very low noise.

The KP is newer tech, with advances in the sensitivity and the like characteristics at in the base silicon, and things always move forward (well, except Pentax's SR and HDMI ) so has improved over previous generations. Same goes with the image processing and noise cancelling code in the firmware.
So the KP has better baffles for getting rid of the ripples.

03-24-2017, 07:36 AM   #13
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QuoteOriginally posted by PiDicus Rex Quote
The S/N ratio is more a function of the pixel size, then the size of the sensor.
The A7s with it's FF sensor, is 'only' a 12Mp camera. This is because the photosites on it's sensor (aka, the pixels,..) are Huuuuuuge compared to most APSc and FF cameras.
This gives it it's low-light performance, and when used in normal or well lit conditions, at low ISO ranges, gives it much better S/N characteristics, because it can gather more light in the same shutter opening to create the information it processes.
But the DxoMark-score which I refered to then? The sports/lowlight/ISO. I guess thats all about signal/noise.

The 36 mpix is not so much worse if you scale it down. And why do the a7s II has a lower score than both K-1 and a7s?
03-24-2017, 11:48 PM   #14
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The low score is because the A7s is 'only' a 12megapixel camera - compare the K-1 to the A7 or A7r for Stills vs Stills.

The A7s and A7s2 is primarily aimed at use Cinematographers, and as a 4K solution, it's amazing.

I doubt DxOMark test in SLog2 either, which is where the A7s shines.
03-25-2017, 12:30 AM   #15
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But I meant the low score for a7s II!
Low is bad.
a7s II has also only 12 mpix.
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