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05-19-2021, 08:31 AM   #1
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No 25p or 50p for European video users?

It isn't totally a surprise because the published specifications don't mention the possibility to switch to 25p or 50p but after receiving my new K3III I can't find a way to adhere to the European PAL-standard I have to use to produce broadcast material. I am posting this to make sure that I am not overlooking something! Until now every Pentax camera had this option.

I bought the camera mainly for photography and for private use. But as a journalist specialized in nature the ability to use a longer lens to mainly shoot video of birds has been a welcome bonus feature of my photography hobby. The gear my employer provided me with is a Sony PXW-Z90 with a fixed lens. My only alternative with my current gear is to shoot the DFA150-450 in crop on my K-1. I have tried that a couple of years ago but the quality of those video files does seem to suffer from cropping. If you guy's have a solution I would be extremely happy hear one! Otherwise I'll make a feature request if I can find the right channel to do so.

Thanks in advance!

05-19-2021, 10:29 AM - 1 Like   #2
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Not sure since I don't have the K3 but specs list 30/25/24fps for 1080p and 60/50/30/25/24 for 720p. Have you searched the menu and why would you have to use crop mode on the K-1 (are you referring to the fact that the entire K-1 frame is not used for video)?

https://www.pentaxforums.com/reviews/pentax-k-3-review/specifications.html
05-19-2021, 11:20 AM - 1 Like   #3
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You canít choose 25? You have FHD 1080 which you can shoot 24/25/50/60 FPS?


One way to ícopeí with flicrker is to use 1/50 or 1/100 shutterspeed and use f stop, ND or ISO to get your exposure correct. If you should use for example 30 FPS in 4K.

This is how I think it should work and that might be the reason why there us no switch.

Edit:isnít FHD 1080 still official broadcast format, so that should be enough? For youtube other things should be just fine,like 4K with 24/30 just get your shutterspeed right.
05-19-2021, 11:23 AM - 1 Like   #4
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Maybe in a future firmware update? I'd send an email to tech support to try and get it noticed as an issue.

In the interim, can't you record at 30fps and change to 25fps in post? Ditto, 60fps and change to 50fps?

05-19-2021, 11:25 AM - 1 Like   #5
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QuoteOriginally posted by JohnX Quote
Maybe in a future firmware update? I'd send an email to tech support to try and get it noticed as an issue.

In the interim, can't you record at 30fps and change to 25fps in post? Ditto, 60fps and change to 50fps?
There is 50 FPS in FHD1080 already available in camera.
05-19-2021, 12:01 PM - 1 Like   #6
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fries Quote
It isn't totally a surprise because the published specifications don't mention the possibility to switch to 25p or 50p but after receiving my new K3III I can't find a way to adhere to the European PAL-standard I have to use to produce broadcast material. I am posting this to make sure that I am not overlooking something! Until now every Pentax camera had this option.

I bought the camera mainly for photography and for private use. But as a journalist specialized in nature the ability to use a longer lens to mainly shoot video of birds has been a welcome bonus feature of my photography hobby. The gear my employer provided me with is a Sony PXW-Z90 with a fixed lens. My only alternative with my current gear is to shoot the DFA150-450 in crop on my K-1. I have tried that a couple of years ago but the quality of those video files does seem to suffer from cropping. If you guy's have a solution I would be extremely happy hear one! Otherwise I'll make a feature request if I can find the right channel to do so.

Thanks in advance!
Perhaps that is because of most (European) countries ceased to use PAL for broadcasting? Maybe Ricoh uses the standards that are used in that part of the world the camera is produced for as they also have to adhere to specific regulations forced by law in the countries they sell their product?
05-19-2021, 02:04 PM - 1 Like   #7
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Interesting find, the German manual does not mention 25 / 50 fps in the manual either.
The 25 / 50 FPS video options are not only relevant for broadcasting but even more for filming light sources powered by the German power grid. As we are using a power frequency of 50hz filming these light sources with 30 / 60 fps will cause flickering of these light sources.

You should direct that question to the Ricoh / Pentax through their official website.
I can only hope that this only an oversight in the manual. Have you tried to switch the region in the camera to your country?
Otherwise this looks like an unfinished firmware..

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05-19-2021, 02:08 PM   #8
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QuoteOriginally posted by Bob 256 Quote
Not sure since I don't have the K3 but specs list 30/25/24fps for 1080p and 60/50/30/25/24 for 720p. Have you searched the menu and why would you have to use crop mode on the K-1 (are you referring to the fact that the entire K-1 frame is not used for video)?
Pentax K-3 Review - Specifications | PentaxForums.com Reviews
First of all thanks to you guy's for trying to help out! Bob, I have the new K-3III and just gifted my old K-3 to a friend. You are right that the old K-3 has those options available but the new one has not. If it does I can't find it! It does have a better bitrate and resolution though. With shooting crop on the K-1 am using the APC-part of the sensor. That does give the same 'reach' as with the K-3 but somehow the quality of those files was not to my liking. Because video is in a 16-9 ratio you alway's use only a part of the whole sensor. At least that is my understanding.
QuoteOriginally posted by repaap Quote
You can’t choose 25? You have FHD 1080 which you can shoot 24/25/50/60 FPS?


One way to ’cope’ with flicrker is to use 1/50 or 1/100 shutterspeed and use f stop, ND or ISO to get your exposure correct. If you should use for example 30 FPS in 4K.

This is how I think it should work and that might be the reason why there us no switch.

Edit:isn’t FHD 1080 still official broadcast format, so that should be enough? For youtube other things should be just fine,like 4K with 24/30 just get your shutterspeed right.
Hi Aapo! That is right. Even shooting HD does not provide the options 25p or 50p. The way you describe the shutter speeds with the ND filter & ISO is the way I have been shooting. HD is enough for broadcast but it is no an resolution issue. We broadcast at 50i (interlaced). If I shoot 24/30 the sound will be out of sync and the framerate will be either not high enough or too high. I consulted with the cameraman I am currently working with and he deemed the current set-up as unusable for broadcasting. Especially when you mix it with material from my company camera. Youtube is no problem, but that is not what I am producing it for.

QuoteOriginally posted by JohnX Quote
Maybe in a future firmware update? I'd send an email to tech support to try and get it noticed as an issue.

In the interim, can't you record at 30fps and change to 25fps in post? Ditto, 60fps and change to 50fps?
Not very easy a first Google search tells me. One suggestion is to use the time warp effect (120%) in Avid Media Composer which is the software that I use the most. But it is described as a being a tricky proces on the Avid forum entry I found. With deadlines looming that does no seem to be the most usable route to take. I'll probably send an email to Ricoh-Pentax Europe. But I wanted to be sure that I wasn't overlooking something obvious. Which can happen when you are setting up a new camera!

QuoteOriginally posted by repaap Quote
There is 50 FPS in FHD1080 already available in camera.
In the original K-3 there is. But I can't find it in the K-3III...

QuoteOriginally posted by AfterPentax Mark II Quote
Perhaps that is because of most (European) countries ceased to use PAL for broadcasting? Maybe Ricoh uses the standards that are used in that part of the world the camera is produced for as they also have to adhere to specific regulations forced by law in the countries they sell their product?
As far as I know PAL is still the standard in Europe: World Broadcast Standards and Video Standards Explained - World-import - World Import. So I don't think Ricoh is adhering to a change of standards. It seems an oversight.

---------- Post added 05-19-21 at 10:17 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Snakeisthestuff Quote
Interesting find, the German manual does not mention 25 / 50 fps in the manual either.
The 25 / 50 FPS video options are not only relevant for broadcasting but even more for filming light sources powered by the German power grid. As we are using a power frequency of 50hz filming these light sources with 30 / 60 fps will cause flickering of these light sources.

You should direct that question to the Ricoh / Pentax through their official website.
I can only hope that this only an oversight in the manual. Have you tried to switch the region in the camera to your country?
Otherwise this looks like an unfinished firmware..
I am afraid you are exactly right! I have set the language to Dutch and changing that to Deutsch does not help. I also tried to reset the whole camera since I haven't really set up everything to my liking.

Vielen dank! Vielleicht haben Sie recht und sind sie etwas fergessen im firmware.... (Thank you! Perhaps you are right and this can be corrected in a new firmware version.)

Last edited by Fries; 05-20-2021 at 01:55 PM.
05-19-2021, 02:54 PM - 1 Like   #9
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fries Quote
As far as I know PAL is still the standard in Europe: World Broadcast Standards and Video Standards Explained - World-import - World Import. So I don't think Ricoh is adhering to a change of standards. It seems in oversight.
Perhaps I am wrong, but on the page of PAL explained I got to a list of countries that still use PAL and there was also a list of countries that stopped using PAL amongst which most European countries. I read that they stopped with PAL because they use DVB-T for broadcasting now. PAL seems to be used for analog tv signal, but analog tv signal is switched off in most, if not all of Europe, it certainly is in the Netherlands. The link you provided needs to be updated I think, because I think that your (also mine) country the analog signal was switched off around 2014-16.
05-19-2021, 04:13 PM - 1 Like   #10
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QuoteOriginally posted by AfterPentax Mark II Quote
Perhaps I am wrong, but on the page of PAL explained I got to a list of countries that still use PAL and there was also a list of countries that stopped using PAL amongst which most European countries. I read that they stopped with PAL because they use DVB-T for broadcasting now. PAL seems to be used for analog tv signal, but analog tv signal is switched off in most, if not all of Europe, it certainly is in the Netherlands. The link you provided needs to be updated I think, because I think that your (also mine) country the analog signal was switched off around 2014-16.
You are right that we have switched to digital but the broadcast signal still mainly is 50i because of the lower bandwith it uses. That way the cable companies are able to utilize their hardware more efficiŽnt. At least that is how the cameraman that I am currently working with explained it to me if I remember it correctly. It annoys him because he has to 'downgrade' the progressive material he is shooting on his Sony FS7II to interlaced.

Perhaps using the term PAL is a bit confusing in hindsight...Anyway part of the problem could be that traditional TV broadcasting isn't the main platform anymore for seeing video.
05-19-2021, 05:19 PM - 1 Like   #11
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PAL refers to the broadcast standard "Phase Alternate Line". That term is often used to refer to electronic imaging shot at 25 fps, but it's probably an inappropriate use of the term. High definition shooting incorporates both the NTSC and PAL frame rates of 30 and 25 fps respectively (and some others) but "lines" are irrelevant since HD uses the pixel approach and the horizontal and vertical resolutions of HD are completely different from that of conventional PAL television.

The bottom line is that you're just referring to HD (with a frame rate appropriate for those countries who use the 25fps frame rate) and not PAL (hence the 1080p30, 720p60, 1080p25, 1080i60, etc., etc., designations) Video shot at 30 fps can be converted to 25 fps and visa versa, but there is some interpolation done (dropped frames or repeated frames) so it's best to shoot at the frame rate driven by the final video display chosen (which the reason the OP desires to shoot 25 fps where the display is television driven at 25 fps). Changing frame rates can look ok but it's best if that doesn't happen, particularly for smooth motion like pans and street scenes with slow moving vehicles. An artifact called "judder" can be introduced when converting frame rates and it shows up in smooth motion as a jerkiness. If one is to convert to 25 fps, shooting at the 24 fps rate is probably better than 30 fps since it's closer to the 25 fps rate and converts more easily (24 fps is provided to relate to the motion picture frame speed and is included in the HD standard). Interestingly, if television broadcast was not the intermediary in the process (video fed straight to an electronic display), frame rate probably wouldn't matter that much because many modern electronic displays refresh at a 120 Hertz rate, common to 24, 25, 30, and 60 fps (they all divide evenly into 120), and the display provides the "conversion" without judder - you see the original camera frame rate on the display.

But back to the OP's issue. In reading further, it appears that the 25/50 fps options were dropped between the MarkII and MarkIII versions. Perhaps there was an issue with including both in the processing engine for that camera. That's really strange (there was one reference as to the MarkIII being available in 25/50 fps on special order - no 30/60 fps) . As for the K-1, don't use crop mode. Just shoot full frame in movie mode and select the 25 fps rate and see what happens. There will be some sensor cropping which the camera makes to fit the 16:9 aspect ratio, but you might find the video better than with crop mode. Full frame can be used unless it's a lens limitation which calls for crop mode (e.g., an APS-C lens). The DFA shouldn't.

Last edited by Bob 256; 05-19-2021 at 06:16 PM.
05-19-2021, 06:13 PM - 1 Like   #12
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QuoteOriginally posted by Bob 256 Quote
Video shot at 30 fps can be converted to 25 fps and visa versa, but there is some interpolation done (dropped frames or repeated frames)
I think as Fries points out, there's the additional point of fluorescent lighting flickering when the AC frequency is 50 rather than 60!

Last edited by clackers; 05-19-2021 at 06:34 PM.
05-19-2021, 06:21 PM - 1 Like   #13
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QuoteOriginally posted by Bob 256 Quote
But back to the OP's issue. In reading further, it appears that the K3Mark3 can be ordered as a 25 fps or 30 fps option for some strange reason.
Do tell, who offers this option?


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05-19-2021, 09:33 PM - 1 Like   #14
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Interesting topic!

I know that my K-5 offers the ability to choose between PAL and NTSC.

This choice isn't availlable on my KP. Although the KP's menu system offers 60i, 50i, 30p, 25p and 24p. When I was filming at a Taekwondo event in a sports hall. I chose FullHD @ 30p. My god - because of the artificial light I got real flickering mess! In short - not usable and I couldn't find a satisfactory method to remove it. Even the nice little software TLDF (Time-lapse Deflicker) didn't help.

Some days ago I bought the extremely compact Sony ZV-1 - a dedicated VLogging camera. Terrible menu system but the video capabilities are amazing. And that's what I was looking for to get more accustomed with filming and synchronise with my audio field recorder via timecode. There's also the ability to change between PAL and NTSC using whatever frame rate you can think of up to 4K @ 30p. Only using the NTSC path you get to 4K@30p. Interestingly - if you change from Pal to NTSC the camera reformats the SD card. I guess this is necessary due to performance.
05-19-2021, 11:10 PM - 1 Like   #15
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Yes, Ot seems that PAL shooters are out of luck with the new K-3III. K-1 offers 50&60i. I have to say that I’m happy with that ’i’ being gone. But this is not good in your case.

About fluoricent flicker, FPS does not matter as much as your shutter speed. Fixing that, will fix flicker. Interlaced which this 50i is referointi to is just that image is half the info, and it looks like it is striped in non PAL system. Especially if you broadcast. In that way it is nice, in any other way, let’s say youtube, Facebook, vimeo. Itseosaamistoiminta not really look good.
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