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05-11-2009, 07:14 AM   #151
raz
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QuoteOriginally posted by nosnoop Quote
In the hands of experienced and professional videographer, yes, they can make 24fps look good, just like the movies.
But in the hands of general consumer, they would have problem understanding why some of their 24fps video footage don't look like film at all with all the stuttering
Correct. I may add that 24fps isn't so good for sports,fast moving objects, or fast panning and zooming, because of the low frame rate. You can work nicely with 24p, but you produce a lot of motion blur by having a low shutter speed - that's why you need very calculated moves to shot with 24fps low shutter speeds.


QuoteOriginally posted by Om81 Quote
Video IQ... still picture IQ.. what are we talk about??? Video is not a still picture!
I didn't say that, I said the comparison between K20D and full frame or medium format cameras is the same as some of you compare now the 720p video from the K7 (which at the point we don't know if it's even a true 720p mode) to the 1080p video from 5D2. A little bit unrealistic.

I was very disappointed myself when I seen the "video" mode of the K20D (falconeye opened my eyes that time ), with the bad AA and low resolution because of the subsampling, so I don't want to pass through the same experience again

QuoteOriginally posted by gazonk Quote
I've never been impressed by the consumer videocams from Canon. Had one for less than a day before returning it. Low light IQ was a disaster, sound even worse. I now have a Panasonic, excellent value for money. Had a nice Sony, too.
I have a Sony and also a Canon Hv20 which at the time was a lot better than anything Sony and Panasonic had on the market, especially that it had true 24p mode and very good low light capabilities. I think the Hv20/30 is still on the top list of image quality on some benchmarks, so I have absolutely no idea where you got "the disaster" thing.

05-11-2009, 07:38 AM   #152
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QuoteOriginally posted by raz Quote
I have a Sony and also a Canon Hv20 which at the time was a lot better than anything Sony and Panasonic had on the market, especially that it had true 24p mode and very good low light capabilities. I think the Hv20/30 is still on the top list of image quality on some benchmarks, so I have absolutely no idea where you got "the disaster" thing.
The consumer DV camera (not HD) I bought 3 years ago was pretty much a disaster, I was very happy that I could return it, and I've seen unimpressing footage from other Canon DV cameras as well. I wasn't aware that they've fared much better with their HD models, sorry for my negative comment then.
05-11-2009, 07:40 AM   #153
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500D
• 1920 x 1080 (1080P, 16:9) @ 20 fps
• 1280 x 720 (720P, 16:9) @ 30 fps
• 640 x 480 (4:3) @ 30 fps
• Quicktime MOV format (H.264 video,linear PCM audio)
• max file size 4 GB

500D has pseudo-1080P. Standart fps are 24, 25, 30 fps.
05-11-2009, 07:48 AM   #154
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
Hi, thanks for the link to the sample video.

It played 720p for me and I guess this is the "full resolution" you mentioned.

I am still watching out to see true 1080p samples from the GH1. Partially because the GH1 has twice the compression rate of 5Dmkii. Anybody posted 1080p?
My bad...yeah that's just 720p. Well...if you read the vimeo description it was mostly shot 1080p, but then he dropped it in a 720p timeline. There is some 1080p stuff. The bad news is that this camera (Because of the compression you mentioned) falls apart. 24 mbps AVCHD would probably fix it. Will they give us that in a firmware update? It's possible but not totally likely. Panasonic will not disappoint, and the 720p footage is anything but disappointing -- we just might have to wait until next year and the GH2. Anyway that's all I'm going to say here because this is suppoed to be about the K-7 right? (You can catch up on the whole GH1 thing here)

QuoteOriginally posted by blende8 Quote
Well, you like THAT?
...It shows the effect of shallow DoF, but else it's crap, sorry.
No I'm sorry, it's fantastic. Not to be critical, demeaning, or insulting -- especially if you are a filmmaker -- but are you looking at it with the eyes of a photographer or a filmmaker? Because they have a lot in common, but they're different beasts...and if you're looking at that video from a photographic standpoint, than yeah it falls short in a few spots. Maybe if I put it in context it will help a little -- that quality of video from a camera as small and cheap as the GH1 is just mind-blowing. That was not controlled circumstances either...it was just a talented person playing around. The GH1 hasn't even hit American shores yet -- he's got a Japanese model, complete with menus in a language he doesn't even understand. Those clips are untouched in post as well...no grading, etc.

Anyway, sorry to pull off topic, I guess what I was trying to say in the first place is that, as a Pentaxian, I'm thrilled that the K-7 is coming. An excellent video mode would have been icing on the cake, but judging from this thread, I am thinking Panasonic will have Pentax beat. That's ok though, I'd expect a Pentax camera to be first and foremost an excellent stills camera, and if it takes Pentax some time to get up to speed on the video thing, no sweat...


Last edited by Saaby; 05-11-2009 at 07:57 AM.
05-11-2009, 07:48 AM   #155
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ogl, yes as I said the lower end 500D has worse video mode compared to the 5D2, it's not using the same approach (e.g: taking the video with full size then scale it to a HD resolution as 5D2 I think it does). Let's hope K-7 will be smarter, and at least the 720p mode will be true 720p without the antialiasing problem and bluring...

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05-11-2009, 08:39 AM   #156
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QuoteOriginally posted by Steelski Quote
Both wrong.
NTSC is 30 images per second on a 60 Hertz display frequency.
Only 30 pictures displayed at 60FPS. ....
The signals are not 60FPS or 50FPS. Simply the Television displays each frame twice to make 50 or 60 FPS.
Sorry, but this is NOT correct.
In NTSC, images are captured and displayed at half resolution (odd and even fields alternatively) at 60 times a second; i.e. the odd and even fields are captured at different moment in time and NOT derived from the same frame. That's why I said 60 fields per second (not frames). And the minimum shutter speed one can use is 1/60s. In PAL, it would be 50 fields per second.

In the CRT TV days, the signal are displayed as is, 60 fields (alternating odd and even field) per second. For flat panel display, it can only display whole frames; so the interlaced signal are "de-interlaced" (various methods are available), and displayed as 60 de-interlaced frames per second for NTSC and 50 de-interlaced frames per second for PAL.

QuoteOriginally posted by Gimbal:
How does it do that? It only receives 30 entire frames per second. I’m guessing a video camera records 30 fps and sends them as 60 interlaced pictures. Or is a camera recording at 60 interlaced fps?
Most consumer video cam (pre-HD days) capture 60 fields per second (60i) natively. The newer HD cam has 30p and 24p mode (some even 60p). Most camera with movie mode captures as 30p; and when hooked up to a TV directly, then when you said was true and the 30p would be sent as 60i signal. In fact, for Canon HD AVCHD cam, the 30p or 24p is recorded as NTSC 60i signal. You need to get back the 30p or 24p in post-processing.
05-12-2009, 05:07 AM   #157
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No more speculation

A photo friend told me this is from the official press text and I trust him:

video modes are:
- 640 x 416
- 1280 x 720 @ 30 fps
- 1536 x 1024
"beautiful movie clips"
"High-quality still image recording at 720p 30fps"

No word on limited or unlimited recording length. The text suggests that the other modes are 30fps as well. But it could be an "intended misinterpretation". No word if exposure controls or contrast AF are availabe while shooting a video.

And yes, the press text confirms contrast AF and face recognition contrast AF in LV mode.


My personal verdict:

The press text does not indicate that the hardware specs with respect to video have been upgraded from a K20D. Every feature from the press text could be brought to the K20D with a firmware upgrade.

Maybe, there is a hardware upgrade. We will have to await first hands-on tester reports to know. The press text doesn't answer this question.

Without a hardware upgrade I am able to tell that the 1536 x 1024 mode will be a gimmick (upscaled from 768 x 1024 internal). But true 720p will be nice if implemented correctly (no bad subsamping color aberration artifacts as with K20D). But even a nice 720p mode doesn't make the K-7 a DSLR video shooters first choice ...

--- EXCEPT FOR ONE POINT ---

The K-7 may not do any video compression at all, just JPG. If there is no time limit, this may be a VERY interesting feature for DSLR videographers which then have full control over compression quality.

Side note: Assuming one 1280x720 frame is 1 MB (30 MB/s!), then a 4 GB SDHC card would hold 2 min 13 sec before the card would have to be flipped.



Of course, the lack of compression, level of control and quality of implementation of the 720p mode may make the K-7 stand out. But we won't know before June.


Last edited by falconeye; 05-12-2009 at 05:48 AM. Reason: added comment about compression
05-12-2009, 05:44 AM   #158
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[QUOTE=falconeye;592154]

The K-7 may not do any video compression at all, just JPG. If there is no time limit, this may be a VERY interesting feature for DSLR videographers which then have full control over compression quality.

QUOTE]

That will be really nice...the 720p of the competition are really useless in terms of compression.

But i will miss the 1080p for sure.
I thought pentax will take movie mode more seriously when i saw the mic imput, wich is really great to have.
05-12-2009, 05:47 AM   #159
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1 MB for 1280x720 is way to much in my opinion, with my k100D I have around 2MB per image at 3000x2000 pixels, and this is 6 times as larger size of 720p. So I think a 1280x720 should not have more than ~300KB.

But I'm really glad about "beautiful movie clips". Can you ask him about subsampling, did he noticed anny jagged lines or antialiasing artifacts ?
05-12-2009, 05:56 AM   #160
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QuoteQuote:
The press text does not indicate that the hardware specs with respect to video have been upgraded from a K20D. Every feature from the press text could be brought to the K20D with a firmware upgrade.
Aha.. K20 HD video )))
QuoteQuote:
The K-7 may not do any video compression at all, just JPG. If there is no time limit, this may be a VERY interesting feature for DSLR videographers which then have full control over compression quality.

Side note: Assuming one 1280x720 frame is 1 MB (30 MB/s!), then a 4 GB SDHC card would hold 2 min 13 sec before the card would have to be flipped.
Каких только фантазий не прочитаешь здесь
05-12-2009, 06:10 AM   #161
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote

--- EXCEPT FOR ONE POINT ---

The K-7 may not do any video compression at all, just JPG. If there is no time limit, this may be a VERY interesting feature for DSLR videographers which then have full control over compression quality.

Side note: Assuming one 1280x720 frame is 1 MB (30 MB/s!), then a 4 GB SDHC card would hold 2 min 13 sec before the card would have to be flipped.

Of course, the lack of compression, level of control and quality of implementation of the 720p mode may make the K-7 stand out. But we won't know before June.
problem is.... to the average consumer who does not do much research they will see 720p on K-7, or 1080p (even tho it may very well be sub-par) on 500D which will be hundreds of dollars cheaper. What do you think they will choose? (but i guess most people who don't research buy canikon anyways...)

Gimmicks suck and are usually disappointing, but they sell units. wish they could at least slap a 1080p on it... i guess this also means the new k300d or whatever it will be called will also not have 1080p either.

I dont know why people bash video on dslr. Looking at some of the 5d ii videos make me drool. I think it is great and will definitely use this mode. it is silly that my gf's silly p&s camera and shoot video (crappy as it maybe) and a dslr can not.
05-12-2009, 07:53 AM   #162
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
A photo friend told me this is from the official press text and I trust him:

video modes are:
- 640 x 416
- 1280 x 720 @ 30 fps
- 1536 x 1024
"beautiful movie clips"
"High-quality still image recording at 720p 30fps"
If his word is good enough for you, then it is also good enough for me. I've known you to be a reasonable source of information, especially when it comes to technical data.

QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
No word on limited or unlimited recording length. The text suggests that the other modes are 30fps as well. But it could be an "intended misinterpretation". No word if exposure controls or contrast AF are availabe while shooting a video.

And yes, the press text confirms contrast AF and face recognition contrast AF in LV mode.

My personal verdict:

The press text does not indicate that the hardware specs with respect to video have been upgraded from a K20D. Every feature from the press text could be brought to the K20D with a firmware upgrade.

Maybe, there is a hardware upgrade. We will have to await first hands-on tester reports to know. The press text doesn't answer this question.

Without a hardware upgrade I am able to tell that the 1536 x 1024 mode will be a gimmick (upscaled from 768 x 1024 internal). But true 720p will be nice if implemented correctly (no bad subsamping color aberration artifacts as with K20D). But even a nice 720p mode doesn't make the K-7 a DSLR video shooters first choice ...

--- EXCEPT FOR ONE POINT ---

The K-7 may not do any video compression at all, just JPG. If there is no time limit, this may be a VERY interesting feature for DSLR videographers which then have full control over compression quality.

Side note: Assuming one 1280x720 frame is 1 MB (30 MB/s!), then a 4 GB SDHC card would hold 2 min 13 sec before the card would have to be flipped.

Of course, the lack of compression, level of control and quality of implementation of the 720p mode may make the K-7 stand out. But we won't know before June.
Well, if they can shoehorn card size-limited 720p at 30 FPS, I reckon it's good enough to at least favor it in D90 comparisons. Since nobody is expecting real-time AF with video mode outside of the GH-1, I reckon nobody would raise much of a stink regarding it if it doesn't appear. If they do manage to implement it, though, it would be a small coup for Pentax.

If they managed to put in card size-limited 720p at 30 FPS and full-time AF in video mode, I have reason to believe the partnership with Samsung is still running strong.
05-12-2009, 08:32 AM   #163
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
The K-7 may not do any video compression at all, just JPG. If there is no time limit, this may be a VERY interesting feature for DSLR videographers which then have full control over compression quality.
This will be a VERY stupid feature, because:

QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
Assuming one 1280x720 frame is 1 MB (30 MB/s!), then a 4 GB SDHC card would hold 2 min 13 sec before the card would have to be flipped.
This means no more than 4-5 minutes of video, without any additional pictures at all, on a huge 8 GB card!!
This is ridiculous by all means.

Luckily, it's not even technically possible as the SDHC card can't write 30MB/s (even the fastest SDHC card have a write speed of about 18MB/s)
05-12-2009, 11:04 AM   #164
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QuoteOriginally posted by Enc0der Quote
This will be a VERY stupid feature, because:


Luckily, it's not even technically possible as the SDHC card can't write 30MB/s (even the fastest SDHC card have a write speed of about 18MB/s)
It doesn't matter - speed of SDHC. It should be with good speed and it's all. Not lower than file size under specs.

SDHC can write at 20 Mb/s.

Video stream of
5D MkII - 4.8 MB/sec
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canoneos5dmarkii/page19.asp
File size 4.8 MBytes/sec (1080P), 2.2 MBytes/sec (VGA)

D90 - 1.7 МB/sec - VERY POOR

If K-7 has 7-8 MB/sec, it has GREAT IQ of video.

Last edited by ogl; 05-12-2009 at 11:40 AM.
05-12-2009, 11:51 AM   #165
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yeah, but the dude above talked about uncompressed video, with 30MB/s rate
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