Switching to a DSLR - many questions

BadVlad · 05-20-2010, 09:13 PM

Hi, everyone. I am switching from compact to DSLR, so I'll need some help - the usual stuff. But my post will be long… there will be a lot of assumptions following - based on web surfing mostly - and I understand that many of them will be wrong, so please don't get frustrated. I am just trying to clear up things for me. Feel free to destroy any of my arguments.

I am using a Canon Powershot G10. I love it, it is a great camera, the quality in good conditions is awesome, but:
- low-light performance is awful
- speed is awful
- I want real lenses
etc.
So I started reading stuff on the internet and going to the shops to check stuff out. Here's what I learned from all this:

A)
Everybody says that when you are buying a camera, you are buying into a system. That's pretty clear, but what I don't see is a comparison on this level. It surely won't be very accurate, there will be heavy generalizations, etc., but I think it would give an overall idea of where you are going. So here are some internet-based assumptions:

1) Canon - they have a wide range of devices, the usual features, but they seem dull compared to some of the others. Same goes for Nikon, although they seem a bit pricey compared to Canon.
But they have a lot of lenses and accessories - easier to find used stuff
2) Pentax - they are cheap with a lot of functions and a great backward compatibility
But they are slow with releasing new models.
3) Sony - they have good interfaces or some very neat features (Live view, for example).
But I can't understand their future strategy. Most of their DSLRs are entry-level. Their high-end is slow to update.
4) Olympus and Panasonic (FourThirds and MicroFourThirds) - people tend to say that the IQ is lower than from the other DSLRs, but they have nice small cameras. Also, small choice of lenses.

B)
I like shooting landscapes mostly. Then comes some Macro and lastly wildlife. People and architecture do not appeal to me, at least for the moment.
I love using the Liveview - it is extremely convenient, you see pretty much what you'll get. Consequently, I like swivel LCDs too - great for landscape and macro photography in difficult angles, not to mention you can turn it away from the sun for better visibility (no matter the quality of the screen). I love wide-angle too. Most of my pictures with the G10 are at the 28mm. I also like smaller and lighter devices - in the mountain I prefer not to lug too much - but I am willing to sacrifice lightweight for better image quality. I like sturdy and cheap stuff too - at some point I will break something while mountaineering - but not the cheapest and I want some decent quality.

I looked particularly at these models:
Canon X3 and X4, Sony A500 and 550, Pentax K-x, Nikon D5000 and D90, Olympus E-620

1) I dismissed the Nikons - Live view - not great, expensive lenses, in-lens stabilization.
2) Same for Canon.
3) I dismissed the Olympus because of the lower IQ (if it's true) and small choice of lenses (they have basically two wide-angle lenses, one being pretty expensive).
4) Sony has great Live view. Some of the lenses I am interested in don't seem very expensive - like the 16-105. Also I can use old Minolta ones (stabilized)
- I dismissed the Nex, because of the quality of the pictures I've seen on the net (except with the 16mm) and the lack of controls.
5) Pentax looks much cheaper, considering all the used lenses (stabilized) I can get and all the functions they include in a lower-end model. Also they have some pretty small prime lenses - very cool for lugging around.

I) Sony and Pentax seem to suit me best, but I can't decide which one to take.
II) Sony and Pentax suit me given what I like about my Powershot - do you think that maybe this would change or become irrelevant when I switch to a DSLR? Maybe I have the wrong priorities since the beginning, and Sony and Pentax don't suit me at all?

C)
Some features I don't get:
1) DOF - how reliable it is? Do I need it if I have Live view?
2) MLU - how much do I need this? I don't see it as being that important.
3) How much do I care about the viewfinder, given that I like Live view? Do you think I'll get used to it and us it a lot? Not 100% coverage bothers me, but is it that important?

D) What about that Sigma SD14? I can get one pretty cheap - the quality looks very good - but I am worried about the lack of IS, LV and lenses.

Thanks in advance.

Last edited by BadVlad; 05-20-2010 at 10:37 PM.

tokyoso · 05-21-2010, 02:54 AM

K-x seems like a logical choice, with the criteria you gave.

If you want to save a few bucks, I'd look into getting a used one.

BadVlad · 05-21-2010, 04:38 AM

Thanks for the reply. I am thinking exactly about this model. Sturdy, small, cheap, and those great Limited Pentax lenses. Btw, I see you are located in Tokyo, some good place to buys used Pentax lenses?

Adam · 05-21-2010, 04:52 AM

If you do take the Pentax route, then you'll be very thankful for the backwards-compatibility. Older manual lenses are very high-quality and typically cheap.

As far as live view goes- it's quite well-done on the newer Pentax bodies, but it surely is NOT a substitute for using the viewfinder. If this will be your first time using a dslr, this might take a little bit to get used to.

Adam · 05-21-2010, 04:54 AM

As for your other questions-
A 100 percent viewfinder isn't crucial, but it's nice to have a pentaprism in the 90's range.
MLU is very helpful for macro and other tripod shots.

And I'm not sure what you mean about DOF.

Peter Zack · 05-21-2010, 05:25 AM

I was about to post what Adam did.
MLU will be important in some situations. You mentioned macro and when doing that, you can often be in poor light, The 2 second delay and mirror lockup of this feature can make a big difference in getting a sharper shot. Same for landscape shots during dawn and dust light. Often called the "Golden Hour(s)" where the light is the best. The problem is, you're often forced to use slower shutter speeds and having the ability to put the camera on a tripod or stable surface with MLU can make the difference between a great shot and a soft/blurred shot. You won't use it all the time, but a handy feature.

DOF preview is the feature you are most likely referring to. The cameras like K10, K20 and K-7 have this right on the shutter button ring (power). This was dropped from the K-x. IMO this isn't a big issue. I hardly use the feature and I shoot a lot. It's a matter of just getting used to your lenses and what they can do. Some people can find this important for specific situations though.

Live view on the K-x is pretty good but you will find the viewfinder becoming more important. For one thing, when you are holding the camera against your face, you can aim it much more accurately. Second, holding it to your eye gives you one more point to hold it steady. Having the camera out in front of you is inherently going to add camera shake and even more so with a heavy lens.

100% VF's are not that critical. The K-7 is the only current Pentax body that has this. But most, if not all of us will do some slight editing to all our photos. Straightening, sharpening, curves adjustments and cropping. So if you happen to catch a little extra in a shot, it's easy to crop that out later on. This is true for most cameras and brands Btw.

As for Pentax updating the bodies, they are often faster than many brands. We see a new body every 18 months or so. it's true that there are fewer models in any given lineup. Pentax might have 3-4 max current at any given time where other brands will have 6-8 current models. But they often overlap quite a bit. But looking at Nikon as an example. The D40 has been in the line for almost 4 years. Pentax entry models haven't lasted more than 20 months in recent memory.

IMO the K-x is the best bang for the buck camera you can buy from any brand. Have a look at this review of the camera: Pentax K-x. With the needs you've listed, I really don't think you can match it from Sony. In fact if I was going to recommend anything else, it would have been the Nikon D90 but as you already noted, some lenses can be pricey, not everything is backward compatible and no in body SR.

bobmaxja · 05-21-2010, 05:44 AM

I am like you . I wanted to move to DSLR from my Olympus P&S Fe340. That was a great small camera. But Last year, my friends and I were on vacation together . We took similar photo him with his Canon and mine from Olympus. I look at my photo , they look ok until he sent his. My wife , oh my god, our photo look bland. I got the Ok to buy a new DSLR.
I have a film Pentax and a lens. After searching quite a while, I decided to go back to Pentax for the following reason

1) Compatibility will previous lense meaning a lot of lens available at at a great cost
2) Camera offer best value in each of their class
3) Solid construction including the K-X versus the Canon. I will use this camera a lot in my travel . need one that will last
4) A lot of function, easy learning for my wife and for me to
5) Less confusion because model do not change every 6 months. For some it's a disadvantage but for me it's a plus. Canon do have about 5 EOS models at the same time and it's very confusing
6) If I want to upgrade, it will be easier

I just bought the K-X kit with the 2 lenses (18-55 & 55-300) and was able to buy used good lenses at great price

I am sure you will love your Pentax like I do. Easy to learn

BadVlad · 05-23-2010, 05:48 AM

Thanks, everyone! I think I am pretty sold on Pentax. But I think in the future I'll invest in the K-7. So:
- are those WR really good? (IQ and reliability)
- Which wide-angle lens would you suggest - is the Pentax 12-24 really worth it? Its 900$! Or the Sigmas will do?
- Which are better - the FA Limited or the DA limited?

Peter Zack · 05-23-2010, 06:08 AM

Short questions with long answers.

The Sigma 10-20mm is a very capable lens and is demonstrated best here: https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-slr-lens-discussion/84539-sigma-10-20mm-club.html There's 40 pages of photos and comments. I had the Pentax 12-24mm and during a period when money was a little ight, I sold it. Loved the lens, but it was my least used. I replaced it with a 10-20mm for about half the cost.

Differences? The Pentax has quick shift, not a big deal IMO on an ultra wide.
The Pentax is slightly sharper in the corners and shows a big less distortion.

But overall the Sigma is a great lens that does it's job very well.

I don't own lenses like the 18-55mm or 50-200mm WR but did have the 18-55mm VII (same optically) and for the $$ it's a great little lens. Sharp for a kit lens and a very good focal range. The 50-200mm isn't quite as impressive in my opinion but a capable lens. Renders a nice image but maybe not as sharp as other alternatives. If I were buying the kit setup, I'd get the 55-300mm lens instead. Sharper, better focal range and right now, not much more money.

You will never get an answer on DA vs FA limited. They are all stellar lenses. Each has it's place and IMO it's a matter of personal taste. Pentax seems to have been very careful to ensure that if it has the "Limited" name on it, it deserves the name. You'll get lots of opinions on a favourite but really it comes down to what focal length works for your needs and has the characteristics you need. For example, do you want the small size of the 70mm vs the longer length and speed of the 77mm? Same for the 40mm vs the 43mm.

tokyoso · 05-24-2010, 12:08 PM

Originally posted by BadVlad

Thanks for the reply. I am thinking exactly about this model. Sturdy, small, cheap, and those great Limited Pentax lenses. Btw, I see you are located in Tokyo, some good place to buys used Pentax lenses?

there are lots of used shops in tokyo. which part of town are you from ??? there's a place across from yoyogi station that sell used lenses and also clean for a fee.

BadVlad · 05-25-2010, 12:09 AM

Originally posted by tokyoso

there are lots of used shops in tokyo. which part of town are you from ??? there's a place across from yoyogi station that sell used lenses and also clean for a fee.

Thanks. I am in Funabashi, but I don't mind going downtown. What is the name of the shop you mentioned?

awo425 · 05-25-2010, 10:32 AM

You are buying a system, get yourself a Canon, for the Ultrasonic Focusing, accurate WB, clear path of future upgrade, and plenty of lenses to choose from. Pentax limited lenses are nice indeed, but they are quite expensive and not that fast.

tokyoso · 05-25-2010, 02:54 PM

Originally posted by BadVlad

Thanks. I am in Funabashi, but I don't mind going downtown. What is the name of the shop you mentioned?

I cant remember the name. it's a small shop with a huge sign. get off at JR Yoyogi, it's right across the street, cant miss it.

the price may be higher compared to auction sites for ones in excellent condition but its usually fully cleaned, no dusts. they also have a huge "junk" collection, mainly the ones with fungus and/or etch marks that he cant get rid off. but they are super cheap.

i never bought anything from them, just looked. see my sig only 2 lenses actually 4 include the zooms. only 1 M 50 1.4 and i bought that from a friend.

good luck, happy shopping.

05-20-2010, 09:13 PM	#1
BadVlad New Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Montreal Posts: 16	Switching to a DSLR - many questions Hi, everyone. I am switching from compact to DSLR, so I'll need some help - the usual stuff. But my post will be long… there will be a lot of assumptions following - based on web surfing mostly - and I understand that many of them will be wrong, so please don't get frustrated. I am just trying to clear up things for me. Feel free to destroy any of my arguments. I am using a Canon Powershot G10. I love it, it is a great camera, the quality in good conditions is awesome, but: - low-light performance is awful - speed is awful - I want real lenses etc. So I started reading stuff on the internet and going to the shops to check stuff out. Here's what I learned from all this: A) Everybody says that when you are buying a camera, you are buying into a system. That's pretty clear, but what I don't see is a comparison on this level. It surely won't be very accurate, there will be heavy generalizations, etc., but I think it would give an overall idea of where you are going. So here are some internet-based assumptions: 1) Canon - they have a wide range of devices, the usual features, but they seem dull compared to some of the others. Same goes for Nikon, although they seem a bit pricey compared to Canon. But they have a lot of lenses and accessories - easier to find used stuff 2) Pentax - they are cheap with a lot of functions and a great backward compatibility But they are slow with releasing new models. 3) Sony - they have good interfaces or some very neat features (Live view, for example). But I can't understand their future strategy. Most of their DSLRs are entry-level. Their high-end is slow to update. 4) Olympus and Panasonic (FourThirds and MicroFourThirds) - people tend to say that the IQ is lower than from the other DSLRs, but they have nice small cameras. Also, small choice of lenses. B) I like shooting landscapes mostly. Then comes some Macro and lastly wildlife. People and architecture do not appeal to me, at least for the moment. I love using the Liveview - it is extremely convenient, you see pretty much what you'll get. Consequently, I like swivel LCDs too - great for landscape and macro photography in difficult angles, not to mention you can turn it away from the sun for better visibility (no matter the quality of the screen). I love wide-angle too. Most of my pictures with the G10 are at the 28mm. I also like smaller and lighter devices - in the mountain I prefer not to lug too much - but I am willing to sacrifice lightweight for better image quality. I like sturdy and cheap stuff too - at some point I will break something while mountaineering - but not the cheapest and I want some decent quality. I looked particularly at these models: Canon X3 and X4, Sony A500 and 550, Pentax K-x, Nikon D5000 and D90, Olympus E-620 1) I dismissed the Nikons - Live view - not great, expensive lenses, in-lens stabilization. 2) Same for Canon. 3) I dismissed the Olympus because of the lower IQ (if it's true) and small choice of lenses (they have basically two wide-angle lenses, one being pretty expensive). 4) Sony has great Live view. Some of the lenses I am interested in don't seem very expensive - like the 16-105. Also I can use old Minolta ones (stabilized) - I dismissed the Nex, because of the quality of the pictures I've seen on the net (except with the 16mm) and the lack of controls. 5) Pentax looks much cheaper, considering all the used lenses (stabilized) I can get and all the functions they include in a lower-end model. Also they have some pretty small prime lenses - very cool for lugging around. I) Sony and Pentax seem to suit me best, but I can't decide which one to take. II) Sony and Pentax suit me given what I like about my Powershot - do you think that maybe this would change or become irrelevant when I switch to a DSLR? Maybe I have the wrong priorities since the beginning, and Sony and Pentax don't suit me at all? C) Some features I don't get: 1) DOF - how reliable it is? Do I need it if I have Live view? 2) MLU - how much do I need this? I don't see it as being that important. 3) How much do I care about the viewfinder, given that I like Live view? Do you think I'll get used to it and us it a lot? Not 100% coverage bothers me, but is it that important? D) What about that Sigma SD14? I can get one pretty cheap - the quality looks very good - but I am worried about the lack of IS, LV and lenses. Thanks in advance. Last edited by BadVlad; 05-20-2010 at 10:37 PM.

05-21-2010, 04:38 AM	#3
BadVlad New Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Montreal Posts: 16 Original Poster	Thanks for the reply. I am thinking exactly about this model. Sturdy, small, cheap, and those great Limited Pentax lenses. Btw, I see you are located in Tokyo, some good place to buys used Pentax lenses? Last edited by BadVlad; 05-21-2010 at 04:50 AM.

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Hi! Some beginner questions form Deutschland (DSLR)	Acid	Troubleshooting and Beginner Help	8	03-21-2010 08:37 PM
Switching!	snkenai	Welcomes and Introductions	6	03-12-2009 02:02 PM
I'm Switching!	davebris33	General Talk	17	08-29-2008 05:58 AM
Some Quick SLR to DSLR Lens Questions?	msprout	Pentax SLR Lens Discussion	6	05-22-2007 04:01 PM
K10D flash questions from DSLR newbie	AJ Digital	Troubleshooting and Beginner Help	2	12-25-2006 09:58 AM

05-21-2010, 02:54 AM	#2
tokyoso Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Tokyo Photos: Albums Posts: 723	K-x seems like a logical choice, with the criteria you gave. If you want to save a few bucks, I'd look into getting a used one.

05-21-2010, 04:52 AM	#4
Adam Administrator Site Webmaster Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Arizona Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 51,594	If you do take the Pentax route, then you'll be very thankful for the backwards-compatibility. Older manual lenses are very high-quality and typically cheap. As far as live view goes- it's quite well-done on the newer Pentax bodies, but it surely is NOT a substitute for using the viewfinder. If this will be your first time using a dslr, this might take a little bit to get used to.

05-21-2010, 04:54 AM	#5
Adam Administrator Site Webmaster Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Arizona Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 51,594	As for your other questions- A 100 percent viewfinder isn't crucial, but it's nice to have a pentaprism in the 90's range. MLU is very helpful for macro and other tripod shots. And I'm not sure what you mean about DOF.

05-21-2010, 05:25 AM	#6
Peter Zack Pentaxian Moderator Emeritus Join Date: May 2007 Location: Edmonton Alberta, Canada Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 10,643	I was about to post what Adam did. MLU will be important in some situations. You mentioned macro and when doing that, you can often be in poor light, The 2 second delay and mirror lockup of this feature can make a big difference in getting a sharper shot. Same for landscape shots during dawn and dust light. Often called the "Golden Hour(s)" where the light is the best. The problem is, you're often forced to use slower shutter speeds and having the ability to put the camera on a tripod or stable surface with MLU can make the difference between a great shot and a soft/blurred shot. You won't use it all the time, but a handy feature. DOF preview is the feature you are most likely referring to. The cameras like K10, K20 and K-7 have this right on the shutter button ring (power). This was dropped from the K-x. IMO this isn't a big issue. I hardly use the feature and I shoot a lot. It's a matter of just getting used to your lenses and what they can do. Some people can find this important for specific situations though. Live view on the K-x is pretty good but you will find the viewfinder becoming more important. For one thing, when you are holding the camera against your face, you can aim it much more accurately. Second, holding it to your eye gives you one more point to hold it steady. Having the camera out in front of you is inherently going to add camera shake and even more so with a heavy lens. 100% VF's are not that critical. The K-7 is the only current Pentax body that has this. But most, if not all of us will do some slight editing to all our photos. Straightening, sharpening, curves adjustments and cropping. So if you happen to catch a little extra in a shot, it's easy to crop that out later on. This is true for most cameras and brands Btw. As for Pentax updating the bodies, they are often faster than many brands. We see a new body every 18 months or so. it's true that there are fewer models in any given lineup. Pentax might have 3-4 max current at any given time where other brands will have 6-8 current models. But they often overlap quite a bit. But looking at Nikon as an example. The D40 has been in the line for almost 4 years. Pentax entry models haven't lasted more than 20 months in recent memory. IMO the K-x is the best bang for the buck camera you can buy from any brand. Have a look at this review of the camera: Pentax K-x. With the needs you've listed, I really don't think you can match it from Sony. In fact if I was going to recommend anything else, it would have been the Nikon D90 but as you already noted, some lenses can be pricey, not everything is backward compatible and no in body SR.

05-21-2010, 05:44 AM	#7
bobmaxja Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Laval, Quebec Canada Posts: 2,171	I am like you . I wanted to move to DSLR from my Olympus P&S Fe340. That was a great small camera. But Last year, my friends and I were on vacation together . We took similar photo him with his Canon and mine from Olympus. I look at my photo , they look ok until he sent his. My wife , oh my god, our photo look bland. I got the Ok to buy a new DSLR. I have a film Pentax and a lens. After searching quite a while, I decided to go back to Pentax for the following reason 1) Compatibility will previous lense meaning a lot of lens available at at a great cost 2) Camera offer best value in each of their class 3) Solid construction including the K-X versus the Canon. I will use this camera a lot in my travel . need one that will last 4) A lot of function, easy learning for my wife and for me to 5) Less confusion because model do not change every 6 months. For some it's a disadvantage but for me it's a plus. Canon do have about 5 EOS models at the same time and it's very confusing 6) If I want to upgrade, it will be easier I just bought the K-X kit with the 2 lenses (18-55 & 55-300) and was able to buy used good lenses at great price I am sure you will love your Pentax like I do. Easy to learn

05-23-2010, 05:48 AM	#8
BadVlad New Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Montreal Posts: 16 Original Poster	Thanks, everyone! I think I am pretty sold on Pentax. But I think in the future I'll invest in the K-7. So: - are those WR really good? (IQ and reliability) - Which wide-angle lens would you suggest - is the Pentax 12-24 really worth it? Its 900$! Or the Sigmas will do? - Which are better - the FA Limited or the DA limited?

05-23-2010, 06:08 AM	#9
Peter Zack Pentaxian Moderator Emeritus Join Date: May 2007 Location: Edmonton Alberta, Canada Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 10,643	Short questions with long answers. The Sigma 10-20mm is a very capable lens and is demonstrated best here: https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-slr-lens-discussion/84539-sigma-10-20mm-club.html There's 40 pages of photos and comments. I had the Pentax 12-24mm and during a period when money was a little ight, I sold it. Loved the lens, but it was my least used. I replaced it with a 10-20mm for about half the cost. Differences? The Pentax has quick shift, not a big deal IMO on an ultra wide. The Pentax is slightly sharper in the corners and shows a big less distortion. But overall the Sigma is a great lens that does it's job very well. I don't own lenses like the 18-55mm or 50-200mm WR but did have the 18-55mm VII (same optically) and for the $$ it's a great little lens. Sharp for a kit lens and a very good focal range. The 50-200mm isn't quite as impressive in my opinion but a capable lens. Renders a nice image but maybe not as sharp as other alternatives. If I were buying the kit setup, I'd get the 55-300mm lens instead. Sharper, better focal range and right now, not much more money. You will never get an answer on DA vs FA limited. They are all stellar lenses. Each has it's place and IMO it's a matter of personal taste. Pentax seems to have been very careful to ensure that if it has the "Limited" name on it, it deserves the name. You'll get lots of opinions on a favourite but really it comes down to what focal length works for your needs and has the characteristics you need. For example, do you want the small size of the 70mm vs the longer length and speed of the 77mm? Same for the 40mm vs the 43mm.

05-24-2010, 12:08 PM	#10
tokyoso Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Tokyo Photos: Albums Posts: 723	Originally posted by BadVlad Thanks for the reply. I am thinking exactly about this model. Sturdy, small, cheap, and those great Limited Pentax lenses. Btw, I see you are located in Tokyo, some good place to buys used Pentax lenses? there are lots of used shops in tokyo. which part of town are you from ??? there's a place across from yoyogi station that sell used lenses and also clean for a fee.

05-25-2010, 12:09 AM	#11
BadVlad New Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Montreal Posts: 16 Original Poster	Originally posted by tokyoso there are lots of used shops in tokyo. which part of town are you from ??? there's a place across from yoyogi station that sell used lenses and also clean for a fee. Thanks. I am in Funabashi, but I don't mind going downtown. What is the name of the shop you mentioned?

05-25-2010, 10:32 AM	#12
awo425 Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: NYC, USA Posts: 481	You are buying a system, get yourself a Canon, for the Ultrasonic Focusing, accurate WB, clear path of future upgrade, and plenty of lenses to choose from. Pentax limited lenses are nice indeed, but they are quite expensive and not that fast.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

05-25-2010, 02:54 PM	#13
tokyoso Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Tokyo Photos: Albums Posts: 723	Originally posted by BadVlad Thanks. I am in Funabashi, but I don't mind going downtown. What is the name of the shop you mentioned? I cant remember the name. it's a small shop with a huge sign. get off at JR Yoyogi, it's right across the street, cant miss it. the price may be higher compared to auction sites for ones in excellent condition but its usually fully cleaned, no dusts. they also have a huge "junk" collection, mainly the ones with fungus and/or etch marks that he cant get rid off. but they are super cheap. i never bought anything from them, just looked. see my sig only 2 lenses actually 4 include the zooms. only 1 M 50 1.4 and i bought that from a friend. good luck, happy shopping.