One EVIL/MILC/etc advantage

Eruditass · 05-28-2010, 11:01 AM

I was never a fan of EVIL as I love the optical viewfinder look, but I just thought of this. Forgive me if it's already been covered, but one area of possible major advantage of EVIL is the potential for a very large viewfinder, even if it is electric and not optical (not talking about liveview).

Eventually, viewfinders larger than FF or MF cameras with enough pixels and less lag (and in-body IS'd) to be indistinguishable. And it would work better in low-light and bright sunlight with enough processing power, NR, etc. I wouldn't mind a SLR-looking/feeling/functioning/performing body without a mirror whenever this is possible. Of course this would require other advances like a splitter to go to phase-detect AF (hell if I'd give that up).

Basically, I'd be more than happy with an APS-C DSLR that is exactly the same as it is now but with a large EVF in place of the optical one. Whether most consumers want it or not is an entirely different question!

spystyle · 05-29-2010, 03:51 PM

What is EVIL MILC ?

alohadave · 05-29-2010, 05:37 PM

Originally posted by spystyle

What is EVIL MILC ?

Electronic Viewfinder, Interchangeable Lens

Mirrorless, Interchangeable Lens Camera

spystyle · 05-29-2010, 06:24 PM

Oh I see, I already have another thread going about how I prefer big penta-prisms and I call MILC's "point and shoot with interchangeable lens"

So my vote is : reflex ! Long live reflex

Eruditass · 05-29-2010, 07:48 PM

I looked at your thread, and we want the same.

Bigger and brighter viewfinders. There are optical limitations with mirrors and optical viewfinders. Some light has to be split off and go to the AF, for example. APS-C pentaprisms have nothing on old FF or MF VF's anyway.

But with where technology is going, we can have 100% coverage, XXX% size viewfinder (not rear LCD), as bright as we want in darkness from low light or say 100mm of extension tubes, 1000 f/13 (think real time Topaz DeNoise4), and so forth.

Don't get me wrong, current m43rds and their lack of viewfinders suck a lot. I am not talking about a P&S with an interchangable lens, I am talking a bout a SLR-style body, say something that looks and feels exactly like a K-7, but when you look in the VF, it's a super large and bright digital viewfinder.

spystyle · 05-30-2010, 04:56 AM

I would try it

However the last electronic viewfinder I looked through was ... so very artificial.

Like a tiny TV that was too close and too bright. But I'm sure if manufacturers wanted too they could make very nice electronic viewfinder

Opposite of that, I have tried an external finder on top of an AF camera and that was surprisingly nice, with 200% coverage (approximately) but at closer than 4 feet (approximately) parallax becomes a real problem.

Ultimately manufacturers need to take interest in viewfinders again, they are so concerned with megapixels and face detection they shelved they've got us looking through little keyholes to compose our shots.

I am convinced that sucky viewfinders encourage thoughtless composition, or impair thoughtful composition. I really enjoy using the old manual film SLR's with their big bright viewfinders. How could we have lost that? How did technology march forward but get worse? That's a rhetorical question but I still think about it

It looks like for now we'll be squinting through our little keyhole finders and composing on the LCD like Moms do it

That's my 2 cents

Cheers,
Craig

cezarL · 05-30-2010, 06:09 AM

Well.. Panny already has relatively huge EVFs in G1/GH1/G2 (think 1Ds Mk3 size but 4:3 rather than 3:2), however the technology still needs improvement, when light levels go down, EVF start to show their disadvantages.

Anyway... since MILC is already taken, why not go with MILF? As in... "Mirrorless Interchangeable Lens Format", obviously

(I can't take credit for the idea, saw it on another forum)

Eruditass · 05-30-2010, 08:19 AM

Yes, but the G1 is only 0.7x in FF size magnification, and it is noisy and slow in low light.

With where technology is going, it will be no time until it is jerk free in low light, with no shutter lag, and noise free (real-time Topaz DeNoise4-like). It is simply a matter of processing power, and there's Moore's law...

I guarantee you that the technology will be there such that a EVF can look at least as good as an optical viewfinder to you or me in the near future.

MILF would garner too many expectations and odd pictures/films with them.

Biro · 05-30-2010, 08:36 AM

A lot of talk here about the G1/GH1 EVFs - and they are quite good. But if anyone here finds themself in a real camera store anytime soon, check out one of the Olympus Pens with the VF-2 on it. The VF-2 is a removable EVF that slides into the hot shoe. It is staggeringly good. I'm sure some shortcomings reveal themselves in very dark circumstances... but in anything from bright to fairly marginal light, the VF-2 is just great. It's simply the best EVF I have ever seen. In normal light inside one camera store and also when I tested it outside, it looked like an optical viewfinder to me. What's more, there's no rainbow tearing effect that can occasionally be seen with the Lumix models when glancing quickly from one side of the frame to the other, either.

Eruditass · 06-02-2010, 09:57 PM

For those interested, this discussion is also going on here with more gusto:

From an SLR lover: one EVIL lust: Open Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review

Adam · 06-02-2010, 10:36 PM

Moved to off-brand.

fractal · 06-04-2010, 09:21 PM

Does anyone know the what the focal length multiplier is on the Oly EP1/EP2? They don't list it on DPR.

Originally posted by Biro

A lot of talk here about the G1/GH1 EVFs - and they are quite good. But if anyone here finds themself in a real camera store anytime soon, check out one of the Olympus Pens with the VF-2 on it. The VF-2 is a removable EVF that slides into the hot shoe. It is staggeringly good. I'm sure some shortcomings reveal themselves in very dark circumstances... but in anything from bright to fairly marginal light, the VF-2 is just great. It's simply the best EVF I have ever seen. In normal light inside one camera store and also when I tested it outside, it looked like an optical viewfinder to me. What's more, there's no rainbow tearing effect that can occasionally be seen with the Lumix models when glancing quickly from one side of the frame to the other, either.

I have not had a play with the Lumix, but had a little play with the Oly EP1 PEN cam. The cam itself feels great & the VF-2 is definitely the best EVF I have seen, but that being said, it still didn't convince me. I much prefer the optical viewfinder.

The Oly PEN EP2, in black, looks great.

BadVlad · 06-04-2010, 09:40 PM

Originally posted by fractal

Does anyone know the what the focal length multiplier is on the Oly EP1/EP2? They don't list it on DPR.

The crop factor is 2x for all Four Thirds.

Eruditass · 06-04-2010, 10:26 PM

Yep, 2x, but note that the aspect ratios are different.

Originally posted by fractal

Does anyone know the what the focal length multiplier is on the Oly EP1/EP2? They don't list it on DPR.

I have not had a play with the Lumix, but had a little play with the Oly EP1 PEN cam. The cam itself feels great & the VF-2 is definitely the best EVF I have seen, but that being said, it still didn't convince me. I much prefer the optical viewfinder.

The Oly PEN EP2, in black, looks great.

What did you not like about it? The way it looked? low light performance?

fractal · 06-04-2010, 11:27 PM

I already said it looked great. The camera shop was not exactly what i'd call low light so I can't really comment on that.

I said it was the best EVF I had seen. I'm just not a big fan of EVF, period.

05-28-2010, 11:01 AM	#1
Eruditass Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,207	One EVIL/MILC/etc advantage I was never a fan of EVIL as I love the optical viewfinder look, but I just thought of this. Forgive me if it's already been covered, but one area of possible major advantage of EVIL is the potential for a very large viewfinder, even if it is electric and not optical (not talking about liveview). Eventually, viewfinders larger than FF or MF cameras with enough pixels and less lag (and in-body IS'd) to be indistinguishable. And it would work better in low-light and bright sunlight with enough processing power, NR, etc. I wouldn't mind a SLR-looking/feeling/functioning/performing body without a mirror whenever this is possible. Of course this would require other advances like a splitter to go to phase-detect AF (hell if I'd give that up). Basically, I'd be more than happy with an APS-C DSLR that is exactly the same as it is now but with a large EVF in place of the optical one. Whether most consumers want it or not is an entirely different question!

05-30-2010, 08:19 AM	#8
Eruditass Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,207 Original Poster	Yes, but the G1 is only 0.7x in FF size magnification, and it is noisy and slow in low light. With where technology is going, it will be no time until it is jerk free in low light, with no shutter lag, and noise free (real-time Topaz DeNoise4-like). It is simply a matter of processing power, and there's Moore's law... I guarantee you that the technology will be there such that a EVF can look at least as good as an optical viewfinder to you or me in the near future. MILF would garner too many expectations and odd pictures/films with them. Last edited by Eruditass; 05-31-2010 at 10:52 PM.

06-02-2010, 10:36 PM	#11
Adam Administrator Site Webmaster Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Arizona Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 51,594	Moved to off-brand. Adam PentaxForums.com Webmaster (Site Usage Guide \| Site Help \| My Photography) PentaxForums.com server and development costs are user-supported. You can help cover these costs by donating or purchasing one of our Pentax eBooks. Or, buy your photo gear from our affiliates, Adorama, B&H Photo, KEH, or Topaz Labs, and get FREE Marketplace access - click here to see how! Trusted Pentax retailers:

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Sony to launch MILC soon	kevinschoenmakers	Canon, Nikon, Sony, and Other Camera Brands	16	04-26-2010 01:17 PM
Could someone explain FF advantage ?	Wulifou	Pentax DSLR Discussion	162	12-23-2008 01:17 AM
advantage of SDM lenses	Wulifou	Pentax SLR Lens Discussion	16	10-20-2008 10:02 AM
Advantage of carrying the camera	weatherwise2	Post Your Photos!	2	08-06-2008 08:13 PM
advantage of CMOS	vanguy	Pentax DSLR Discussion	4	01-23-2008 10:27 PM

05-29-2010, 03:51 PM	#2
spystyle Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Maine, USA Posts: 424	What is EVIL MILC ?

05-29-2010, 05:37 PM	#3
alohadave Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Quincy, MA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,024	Originally posted by spystyle What is EVIL MILC ? Electronic Viewfinder, Interchangeable Lens Mirrorless, Interchangeable Lens Camera

05-29-2010, 06:24 PM	#4
spystyle Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Maine, USA Posts: 424	Oh I see, I already have another thread going about how I prefer big penta-prisms and I call MILC's "point and shoot with interchangeable lens" So my vote is : reflex ! Long live reflex

05-29-2010, 07:48 PM	#5
Eruditass Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,207 Original Poster	I looked at your thread, and we want the same. Bigger and brighter viewfinders. There are optical limitations with mirrors and optical viewfinders. Some light has to be split off and go to the AF, for example. APS-C pentaprisms have nothing on old FF or MF VF's anyway. But with where technology is going, we can have 100% coverage, XXX% size viewfinder (not rear LCD), as bright as we want in darkness from low light or say 100mm of extension tubes, 1000 f/13 (think real time Topaz DeNoise4), and so forth. Don't get me wrong, current m43rds and their lack of viewfinders suck a lot. I am not talking about a P&S with an interchangable lens, I am talking a bout a SLR-style body, say something that looks and feels exactly like a K-7, but when you look in the VF, it's a super large and bright digital viewfinder.

05-30-2010, 04:56 AM	#6
spystyle Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Maine, USA Posts: 424	I would try it However the last electronic viewfinder I looked through was ... so very artificial. Like a tiny TV that was too close and too bright. But I'm sure if manufacturers wanted too they could make very nice electronic viewfinder Opposite of that, I have tried an external finder on top of an AF camera and that was surprisingly nice, with 200% coverage (approximately) but at closer than 4 feet (approximately) parallax becomes a real problem. Ultimately manufacturers need to take interest in viewfinders again, they are so concerned with megapixels and face detection they shelved they've got us looking through little keyholes to compose our shots. I am convinced that sucky viewfinders encourage thoughtless composition, or impair thoughtful composition. I really enjoy using the old manual film SLR's with their big bright viewfinders. How could we have lost that? How did technology march forward but get worse? That's a rhetorical question but I still think about it It looks like for now we'll be squinting through our little keyhole finders and composing on the LCD like Moms do it That's my 2 cents Cheers, Craig

05-30-2010, 06:09 AM	#7
cezarL Forum Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Romania Posts: 97	Well.. Panny already has relatively huge EVFs in G1/GH1/G2 (think 1Ds Mk3 size but 4:3 rather than 3:2), however the technology still needs improvement, when light levels go down, EVF start to show their disadvantages. Anyway... since MILC is already taken, why not go with MILF? As in... "Mirrorless Interchangeable Lens Format", obviously (I can't take credit for the idea, saw it on another forum)

05-30-2010, 08:36 AM	#9
Biro Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 1,200	A lot of talk here about the G1/GH1 EVFs - and they are quite good. But if anyone here finds themself in a real camera store anytime soon, check out one of the Olympus Pens with the VF-2 on it. The VF-2 is a removable EVF that slides into the hot shoe. It is staggeringly good. I'm sure some shortcomings reveal themselves in very dark circumstances... but in anything from bright to fairly marginal light, the VF-2 is just great. It's simply the best EVF I have ever seen. In normal light inside one camera store and also when I tested it outside, it looked like an optical viewfinder to me. What's more, there's no rainbow tearing effect that can occasionally be seen with the Lumix models when glancing quickly from one side of the frame to the other, either.

06-02-2010, 09:57 PM	#10
Eruditass Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,207 Original Poster	For those interested, this discussion is also going on here with more gusto: From an SLR lover: one EVIL lust: Open Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review

06-04-2010, 09:21 PM	#12
fractal Inactive Account Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Melbourne Photos: Gallery Posts: 3,547	Does anyone know the what the focal length multiplier is on the Oly EP1/EP2? They don't list it on DPR. Originally posted by Biro A lot of talk here about the G1/GH1 EVFs - and they are quite good. But if anyone here finds themself in a real camera store anytime soon, check out one of the Olympus Pens with the VF-2 on it. The VF-2 is a removable EVF that slides into the hot shoe. It is staggeringly good. I'm sure some shortcomings reveal themselves in very dark circumstances... but in anything from bright to fairly marginal light, the VF-2 is just great. It's simply the best EVF I have ever seen. In normal light inside one camera store and also when I tested it outside, it looked like an optical viewfinder to me. What's more, there's no rainbow tearing effect that can occasionally be seen with the Lumix models when glancing quickly from one side of the frame to the other, either. I have not had a play with the Lumix, but had a little play with the Oly EP1 PEN cam. The cam itself feels great & the VF-2 is definitely the best EVF I have seen, but that being said, it still didn't convince me. I much prefer the optical viewfinder. The Oly PEN EP2, in black, looks great.

06-04-2010, 09:40 PM	#13
BadVlad New Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Montreal Posts: 16	Originally posted by fractal Does anyone know the what the focal length multiplier is on the Oly EP1/EP2? They don't list it on DPR. The crop factor is 2x for all Four Thirds.

06-04-2010, 10:26 PM	#14
Eruditass Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,207 Original Poster	Yep, 2x, but note that the aspect ratios are different. Originally posted by fractal Does anyone know the what the focal length multiplier is on the Oly EP1/EP2? They don't list it on DPR. I have not had a play with the Lumix, but had a little play with the Oly EP1 PEN cam. The cam itself feels great & the VF-2 is definitely the best EVF I have seen, but that being said, it still didn't convince me. I much prefer the optical viewfinder. The Oly PEN EP2, in black, looks great. What did you not like about it? The way it looked? low light performance?

06-04-2010, 11:27 PM	#15
fractal Inactive Account Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Melbourne Photos: Gallery Posts: 3,547	I already said it looked great. The camera shop was not exactly what i'd call low light so I can't really comment on that. I said it was the best EVF I had seen. I'm just not a big fan of EVF, period.