iPhone 4 main camera

Unsinkable II · 06-09-2010, 08:15 PM

Thanks Falk!

Very interesting. Basically 1/3.2" sensor with a 30mm F22 equivalent lens.

Why couldn't Apple just tell us! No mention on their "Tech Specs":

Apple - iPhone 4 - Size, weight, battery life, and other specs

Thanks again.

Mortus · 06-10-2010, 01:35 AM

Originally posted by falconeye

Well, if this is true then you can always buy a Simlock-free iPhone from Europe. BTW, if true, AT&T's business practice would be illegal in the EU.

Sure. I am from Slovakia and I think Orange will sell unlocked iPhone 4 as iPhone 3GS but I just dont want to wait so long and the prize will be so much higher than in the US

falconeye · 06-10-2010, 03:10 AM

Originally posted by Unsinkable II

Thanks Falk!

Very interesting. Basically 1/3.2" sensor with a 30mm F22 equivalent lens.

Why couldn't Apple just tell us! No mention on their "Tech Specs":

Apple - iPhone 4 - Size, weight, battery life, and other specs

Thanks again.

So, I now made it a blog article for easier reference:

http://falklumo.blogspot.com/2010/06/apple-iphone-4-camera-specs.html

Most cell phone makers specify the Mpixels and that's it. Guess why...?

Moreover, I found that image sensor inch quotes (like 1/3.2") are overspecced if given. The common convention of 16mm sensor diagonal being 1 inch is pushing it quite a bit already. But for cell phones, it magically seems to become another 5% more

I didn't do it. But if, 1/3.2" would become 1/3".

BTW, the biggest cell phone sensor seems to be in emerging Nokia N8 camera. It is 1/2.25", 1/1.92" or 1/1.83" depending on the source and type of math.

NOTE
A phone this slim (9.3mm with 1.6mm glass plates) may have room for a 6.0mm lens (assuming 0.85mm for the printed circuit and the imaging chip each). Even as a 24mm equivalent, this would mean a crop factor of at least 4. I know that lenses can be folded using a 45° mirror. But at crop factor 4, the imaging sensor is already 6mm on its shorter edge and it then would have to "stand" between the two glass plates where it would just fit.

So, crop factor 4 is "my" limit for slim smart phone cameras. A factor 2 to improve above the iPhone 4 but that's about it.

Of course, nothing prevents a bad designer to plant an extruding lens on the rear of a phone so that it won't easily slide in and out of pockets anymore. But that wouldn't qualify as slim smart phone anymore.

Nobody would do that? Maybe, nobody at Apple. But just look at the HTC EVO 4G

However, progress is possible beyond this point:

A slim smart phone can have an array of say 2x2 camera modules forming a large 18x18mm^2 camera module with 6 lenses. It would have the depth of field of a crop factor 1.7 camera and the noise performance of a crop factor 2.0 camera. Just don't expect a nice bokeh

So, system camera image quality from a slim smart phone is possible. Maybe, I should file for a patent of a cell phone camera array module?

PentaxPoke · 06-14-2010, 11:07 PM

Originally posted by falconeye

It really is a pitty that in the US, the iPhone is bundled with such an obviously bad carrier.

I think that this is a self-perpetuating myth to a certain extent. I have been an ATT customer for about 12 years, and have owned an iPhone for over a year. I have nothing to complain about with my service, and I travel quite a bit.

Kai · 06-14-2010, 11:55 PM

Originally posted by PentaxPoke

I think that this is a self-perpetuating myth to a certain extent. I have been an ATT customer for about 12 years, and have owned an iPhone for over a year. I have nothing to complain about with my service, and I travel quite a bit.

I am not very happy to report that I get dropped calls on my iPhone every now and then. I don't travel that much.

falconeye · 06-15-2010, 06:37 AM

Originally posted by PentaxPoke

I think that this is a self-perpetuating myth to a certain extent.

Well, I'm not living in the US, so, I shouldn't be able to know. But the bad thing is I do. AT&T seems to be so bad that even here in Germany we heard about. I've never had a single dropped call on my iPhone outside the US, not even when travelling to Cuba

(except sometimes in a tunnel or at 300 km/h in a train ...).

This is first hand coverage from users and Steve Jobs, all confirming it is this bad:

D8: Steve Jobs on AT&T | All Things Video | AllThingsD

In words not capturing the entire deception felt by users and Apple:

Quote:

Q: A complaint about dropped calls on AT&T’s networks. Is someone from Apple working on that?
A: You can bet we’re doing everything we can do….I can tell you what I’m told by reliable people: To make things better, people reallocate spectrum and they do things like increasing backhaul and they put in more robust switches…and things in general, when they start to fix them, get worse before they get better…and if you believe that, things should be getting a lot better real soon.

So, it's no myth. But it's unbelievable for a wannabe front-runner like the US nevertheless.

Aegon · 06-15-2010, 07:45 AM

Originally posted by PentaxPoke

I think that this is a self-perpetuating myth to a certain extent. I have been an ATT customer for about 12 years, and have owned an iPhone for over a year. I have nothing to complain about with my service, and I travel quite a bit.

I used to think the same way. Then AT&T started really getting bad.

I think it really depends on where you live and how under served your area is. But I know that Portland has gone from "just fine" to "overloaded".

PentaxPoke · 06-15-2010, 03:17 PM

Originally posted by Aegon

I used to think the same way. Then AT&T started really getting bad.

I think it really depends on where you live and how under served your area is. But I know that Portland has gone from "just fine" to "overloaded".

I think that is a direct result of the success of the iPhone in the US. Bandwidth use by iPhone users is phenomenal compared to the average user. At least 4 times the average user:
http://tech.fortune.cnn.com/2009/08/28/bandwidth-hogs-iphone-and-other-smartphones/
I noticed that myself after getting an iPhone. I think ATT is still catching up from an explosion no one expected; even Apple. Remember, no one else was interested in the iPhone when it came out but AT&T took the chance on them, and the rest is history. That is why AT&T still has the exclusive contract with Apple.

Originally posted by falconeye

So, it's no myth. But it's unbelievable for a wannabe front-runner like the US nevertheless.

"Wannabe front-runner like the US?" Seriously, Falk? You do know the country where your beloved iPhone was developed, don't you?

falconeye · 06-15-2010, 04:57 PM

Originally posted by PentaxPoke

"Wannabe front-runner like the US?" Seriously, Falk? You do know the country where your beloved iPhone was developed, don't you?

I think it says something like "designed in California, made in China" in the box

What part do you criticise? The front-runner or the wannabe? IMHO, it's both.

a a i b · 06-15-2010, 07:03 PM

Originally posted by falconeye

As for official vs. unofficial unlock ... still seems to be a gray zone indeed. Maybe, the US legislation allows to lock somebody's property to a carrier even without a contract. I didn't consider this exotic possibility

Locking an unsubsidized phone to a carrier rather than the owner is considered theft in the EU. Where are all your US lawyers if you need them?

My guess is that carriers make up whatever rules they want here, UNTIL the lawyers smell enough money via a class-action lawsuit. Anyway, apparently Canadian phones will be able to be purchased unlocked, for those who want to go that way; however, I think any iPhone purchased in the U.S., subsidized or not, is locked to AT&T.

PentaxPoke · 06-15-2010, 09:13 PM

Originally posted by falconeye

What part do you criticise?

I am criticising the fact that you are criticising something that you admittedly know very little about. It's easy to be an "expert" from 5,800 miles away.

falconeye · 06-16-2010, 05:06 AM

Originally posted by PentaxPoke

It's easy to be an "expert" from 5,800 miles away.

Thanks for explaining your concerns. So, you may want to ask somebody near you if you don't trust me.

P.S.
I admitted that I have no first-hand experience about AT&T dropped phone calls. I didn't say that I have no US experience.

Aegon · 06-16-2010, 04:27 PM

Falk, your AT&T reception is probably bad because you are 9.300 km away from the tower. Try standing on your front porch and aiming your head toward the US.

falconeye · 06-17-2010, 01:24 AM

Originally posted by Aegon

Falk, your AT&T reception is probably bad because you are 9.300 km away from the tower. Try standing on your front porch and aiming your head toward the US.

Since I didn't have dropped calls myself, people who did propably have been even more far away

Glad you removed a bit of the tension

Steve Beswick · 06-19-2010, 09:55 PM

Originally posted by falconeye

[gizmodo.com]

The sensor was said to be back-illuminated so probably is a Sony Exmor R type sensor. Job's said it's all about capturing photons. Sweet he has some understanding for camera technology and makes bigger rather than more pixels.

With a better lens and 720p 30fps HD video may be a serious P&S replacement now. It even auto focusses during video

I'm curious to see the exact specs and sample shots.

EDIT:
In post #9 below, I compile the following:
lens: 3.85mm f/2.8. crop factor: 7.64.

I'm not picking on what you said, but that quote from Gizmodo is in error. The previous generation iPhone had a 3 megapixel sensor.

Originally posted by aerodave

It's features like this greatly improved camera that are making me break down and consider renewing an AT&T contract. I was all ready to jump carriers and get an Android phone, but since seeing the new iPhone yesterday, I'm ready to sell my soul again the way I did for an iPhone 3G two years ago.

*sigh* Resitance truly is futile...

I just recently switched to a MyTouch Slide with T-moble from my iPhone & AT&T. It took a few days to get used to the new phone and OS, but now I couldn't be happier. I was very happy with my iPhone (first generation) when I first got it, but over time the service just kept getting worse and worse. Whenever I called AT&T to complain I was treated like a second class citizen because I hadn't upgraded to the new model yet.

Now I have only been with T-mobile for about a week, but so far my experience with them has been top notch. Honestly, even if the phone was lousy I would be much happier than I ever was with AT&T, but the phone is great! I would honestly say that the phone and OS is by far more stable than my iPhone ever was. I also like the OS much better than iOS, but that is a subjective thing. I haven't really dug into the marketplace (think app store) yet, but it definitely has a lot of quality software in it.

I'm not even going to go into the full story of how my wife and I were treated when we told the people at the AT&T store we were unhappy, and considering switching to another vendor. to summarize I will say that my wife left the store crying, and I then gave the AT&T rep a bloody nose. Trust me, he had it coming.

T-mobile seems to be the only phone company in the US that has a cheaper rate for people who buy their phones up front - and it is a lot cheaper! My wife and I are now saving $40 a month over what we were paying with AT&T!

I know it probably sounds like I work for T-mobile, but I don't. It has just been a really long time since I was as happy of a customer with any company.

To anyone who is considering buying an unlocked iPhone from outside the US and running it on a different network in the US: T-mobile is the only other GSM provider in the US, and their 3G runs on a different bandwidth than the iPhone supports, so you will only get EDGE speeds. That being said, T-mobile's EDGE seems faster than AT&T's 3G, so you may not be losing anything. Also, T-mobile only has unlimited data plans, which AT&T doesn't even offer anymore.

Edit: I forgot to mention that the voice service is much better with T-mobile.

06-10-2010, 03:10 AM	#18
falconeye Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Munich, Alps, Germany Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,871 Original Poster	Originally posted by Unsinkable II Thanks Falk! Very interesting. Basically 1/3.2" sensor with a 30mm F22 equivalent lens. Why couldn't Apple just tell us! No mention on their "Tech Specs": Apple - iPhone 4 - Size, weight, battery life, and other specs Thanks again. So, I now made it a blog article for easier reference: http://falklumo.blogspot.com/2010/06/apple-iphone-4-camera-specs.html Most cell phone makers specify the Mpixels and that's it. Guess why...? Moreover, I found that image sensor inch quotes (like 1/3.2") are overspecced if given. The common convention of 16mm sensor diagonal being 1 inch is pushing it quite a bit already. But for cell phones, it magically seems to become another 5% more I didn't do it. But if, 1/3.2" would become 1/3". BTW, the biggest cell phone sensor seems to be in emerging Nokia N8 camera. It is 1/2.25", 1/1.92" or 1/1.83" depending on the source and type of math. NOTE A phone this slim (9.3mm with 1.6mm glass plates) may have room for a 6.0mm lens (assuming 0.85mm for the printed circuit and the imaging chip each). Even as a 24mm equivalent, this would mean a crop factor of at least 4. I know that lenses can be folded using a 45° mirror. But at crop factor 4, the imaging sensor is already 6mm on its shorter edge and it then would have to "stand" between the two glass plates where it would just fit. So, crop factor 4 is "my" limit for slim smart phone cameras. A factor 2 to improve above the iPhone 4 but that's about it. Of course, nothing prevents a bad designer to plant an extruding lens on the rear of a phone so that it won't easily slide in and out of pockets anymore. But that wouldn't qualify as slim smart phone anymore. Nobody would do that? Maybe, nobody at Apple. But just look at the HTC EVO 4G However, progress is possible beyond this point: A slim smart phone can have an array of say 2x2 camera modules forming a large 18x18mm^2 camera module with 6 lenses. It would have the depth of field of a crop factor 1.7 camera and the noise performance of a crop factor 2.0 camera. Just don't expect a nice bokeh So, system camera image quality from a slim smart phone is possible. Maybe, I should file for a patent of a cell phone camera array module? Last edited by falconeye; 06-10-2010 at 03:42 AM.

06-15-2010, 03:17 PM	#23
PentaxPoke Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 1,411	Originally posted by Aegon I used to think the same way. Then AT&T started really getting bad. I think it really depends on where you live and how under served your area is. But I know that Portland has gone from "just fine" to "overloaded". I think that is a direct result of the success of the iPhone in the US. Bandwidth use by iPhone users is phenomenal compared to the average user. At least 4 times the average user: http://tech.fortune.cnn.com/2009/08/28/bandwidth-hogs-iphone-and-other-smartphones/ I noticed that myself after getting an iPhone. I think ATT is still catching up from an explosion no one expected; even Apple. Remember, no one else was interested in the iPhone when it came out but AT&T took the chance on them, and the rest is history. That is why AT&T still has the exclusive contract with Apple. Originally posted by falconeye So, it's no myth. But it's unbelievable for a wannabe front-runner like the US nevertheless. "Wannabe front-runner like the US?" Seriously, Falk? You do know the country where your beloved iPhone was developed, don't you? Last edited by PentaxPoke; 06-15-2010 at 03:25 PM.

06-15-2010, 07:03 PM	#25
a a i b Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Brooklyn Photos: Gallery Posts: 315	Originally posted by falconeye As for official vs. unofficial unlock ... still seems to be a gray zone indeed. Maybe, the US legislation allows to lock somebody's property to a carrier even without a contract. I didn't consider this exotic possibility Locking an unsubsidized phone to a carrier rather than the owner is considered theft in the EU. Where are all your US lawyers if you need them? My guess is that carriers make up whatever rules they want here, UNTIL the lawyers smell enough money via a class-action lawsuit. Anyway, apparently Canadian phones will be able to be purchased unlocked, for those who want to go that way; however, I think any iPhone purchased in the U.S., subsidized or not, is locked to AT&T. Last edited by a a i b; 06-15-2010 at 07:18 PM.

06-16-2010, 05:06 AM	#27
falconeye Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Munich, Alps, Germany Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,871 Original Poster	Originally posted by PentaxPoke It's easy to be an "expert" from 5,800 miles away. Thanks for explaining your concerns. So, you may want to ask somebody near you if you don't trust me. P.S. I admitted that I have no first-hand experience about AT&T dropped phone calls. I didn't say that I have no US experience. Last edited by falconeye; 06-16-2010 at 05:18 AM.

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06-09-2010, 08:15 PM	#16
Unsinkable II Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 1,352	Thanks Falk! Very interesting. Basically 1/3.2" sensor with a 30mm F22 equivalent lens. Why couldn't Apple just tell us! No mention on their "Tech Specs": Apple - iPhone 4 - Size, weight, battery life, and other specs Thanks again.

06-10-2010, 01:35 AM	#17
Mortus New Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 2	Originally posted by falconeye Well, if this is true then you can always buy a Simlock-free iPhone from Europe. BTW, if true, AT&T's business practice would be illegal in the EU. Sure. I am from Slovakia and I think Orange will sell unlocked iPhone 4 as iPhone 3GS but I just dont want to wait so long and the prize will be so much higher than in the US

06-14-2010, 11:07 PM	#19
PentaxPoke Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 1,411	Originally posted by falconeye It really is a pitty that in the US, the iPhone is bundled with such an obviously bad carrier. I think that this is a self-perpetuating myth to a certain extent. I have been an ATT customer for about 12 years, and have owned an iPhone for over a year. I have nothing to complain about with my service, and I travel quite a bit.

06-14-2010, 11:55 PM	#20
Kai Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: San Diego, Ca. USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 148	Originally posted by PentaxPoke I think that this is a self-perpetuating myth to a certain extent. I have been an ATT customer for about 12 years, and have owned an iPhone for over a year. I have nothing to complain about with my service, and I travel quite a bit. I am not very happy to report that I get dropped calls on my iPhone every now and then. I don't travel that much.

06-15-2010, 06:37 AM	#21
falconeye Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Munich, Alps, Germany Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,871 Original Poster	Originally posted by PentaxPoke I think that this is a self-perpetuating myth to a certain extent. Well, I'm not living in the US, so, I shouldn't be able to know. But the bad thing is I do. AT&T seems to be so bad that even here in Germany we heard about. I've never had a single dropped call on my iPhone outside the US, not even when travelling to Cuba (except sometimes in a tunnel or at 300 km/h in a train ...). This is first hand coverage from users and Steve Jobs, all confirming it is this bad: D8: Steve Jobs on AT&T \| All Things Video \| AllThingsD In words not capturing the entire deception felt by users and Apple: Quote: Q: A complaint about dropped calls on AT&T’s networks. Is someone from Apple working on that? A: You can bet we’re doing everything we can do….I can tell you what I’m told by reliable people: To make things better, people reallocate spectrum and they do things like increasing backhaul and they put in more robust switches…and things in general, when they start to fix them, get worse before they get better…and if you believe that, things should be getting a lot better real soon. So, it's no myth. But it's unbelievable for a wannabe front-runner like the US nevertheless.

06-15-2010, 07:45 AM	#22
Aegon Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 1,416	Originally posted by PentaxPoke I think that this is a self-perpetuating myth to a certain extent. I have been an ATT customer for about 12 years, and have owned an iPhone for over a year. I have nothing to complain about with my service, and I travel quite a bit. I used to think the same way. Then AT&T started really getting bad. I think it really depends on where you live and how under served your area is. But I know that Portland has gone from "just fine" to "overloaded".

06-15-2010, 04:57 PM	#24
falconeye Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Munich, Alps, Germany Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,871 Original Poster	Originally posted by PentaxPoke "Wannabe front-runner like the US?" Seriously, Falk? You do know the country where your beloved iPhone was developed, don't you? I think it says something like "designed in California, made in China" in the box What part do you criticise? The front-runner or the wannabe? IMHO, it's both.

06-15-2010, 09:13 PM	#26
PentaxPoke Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 1,411	Originally posted by falconeye What part do you criticise? I am criticising the fact that you are criticising something that you admittedly know very little about. It's easy to be an "expert" from 5,800 miles away.

06-16-2010, 04:27 PM	#28
Aegon Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 1,416	Falk, your AT&T reception is probably bad because you are 9.300 km away from the tower. Try standing on your front porch and aiming your head toward the US.

06-17-2010, 01:24 AM	#29
falconeye Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Munich, Alps, Germany Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,871 Original Poster	Originally posted by Aegon Falk, your AT&T reception is probably bad because you are 9.300 km away from the tower. Try standing on your front porch and aiming your head toward the US. Since I didn't have dropped calls myself, people who did propably have been even more far away Glad you removed a bit of the tension

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06-19-2010, 09:55 PM	#30
Steve Beswick Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Ontario, California Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,736	Originally posted by falconeye [gizmodo.com] The sensor was said to be back-illuminated so probably is a Sony Exmor R type sensor. Job's said it's all about capturing photons. Sweet he has some understanding for camera technology and makes bigger rather than more pixels. With a better lens and 720p 30fps HD video may be a serious P&S replacement now. It even auto focusses during video I'm curious to see the exact specs and sample shots. EDIT: In post #9 below, I compile the following: lens: 3.85mm f/2.8. crop factor: 7.64. I'm not picking on what you said, but that quote from Gizmodo is in error. The previous generation iPhone had a 3 megapixel sensor. Originally posted by aerodave It's features like this greatly improved camera that are making me break down and consider renewing an AT&T contract. I was all ready to jump carriers and get an Android phone, but since seeing the new iPhone yesterday, I'm ready to sell my soul again the way I did for an iPhone 3G two years ago. sigh Resitance truly is futile... I just recently switched to a MyTouch Slide with T-moble from my iPhone & AT&T. It took a few days to get used to the new phone and OS, but now I couldn't be happier. I was very happy with my iPhone (first generation) when I first got it, but over time the service just kept getting worse and worse. Whenever I called AT&T to complain I was treated like a second class citizen because I hadn't upgraded to the new model yet. Now I have only been with T-mobile for about a week, but so far my experience with them has been top notch. Honestly, even if the phone was lousy I would be much happier than I ever was with AT&T, but the phone is great! I would honestly say that the phone and OS is by far more stable than my iPhone ever was. I also like the OS much better than iOS, but that is a subjective thing. I haven't really dug into the marketplace (think app store) yet, but it definitely has a lot of quality software in it. I'm not even going to go into the full story of how my wife and I were treated when we told the people at the AT&T store we were unhappy, and considering switching to another vendor. to summarize I will say that my wife left the store crying, and I then gave the AT&T rep a bloody nose. Trust me, he had it coming. T-mobile seems to be the only phone company in the US that has a cheaper rate for people who buy their phones up front - and it is a lot cheaper! My wife and I are now saving $40 a month over what we were paying with AT&T! I know it probably sounds like I work for T-mobile, but I don't. It has just been a really long time since I was as happy of a customer with any company. To anyone who is considering buying an unlocked iPhone from outside the US and running it on a different network in the US: T-mobile is the only other GSM provider in the US, and their 3G runs on a different bandwidth than the iPhone supports, so you will only get EDGE speeds. That being said, T-mobile's EDGE seems faster than AT&T's 3G, so you may not be losing anything. Also, T-mobile only has unlimited data plans, which AT&T doesn't even offer anymore. Edit: I forgot to mention that the voice service is much better with T-mobile.