Faster Flash Sync

geauxpez · 03-13-2011, 05:42 PM

One of the reasons that I jumped ship from Pentax to Nikon was for faster flash sync possibilities. Why not have more creative leeway.

Check out this little hack to get 1/400 out of a D7000 (ala Strobist).

Cheers,

Adam

**BigDave** · 03-18-2011, 08:47 PM

Sorry, this is bogus. Sync speed is the fastest speed that can be used such that the first shutter curtain is open before the second curtain starts to close (focal plane shutter). You really can't "push" the sync speed. The dedicated flashes just try to fool proof the system so you do not shoot on a shutter speed that will not give a full frame exposure (any shutter speed higher than the sync speed). Pentax gets to 1/180th of a second, Nikon is synced to 1/200th, or at least the ones I have run across. The article even states (you can go to 1/500th if you don't mind loosing 1/6th of the frame). If you loose 1/6th of the frame, you are loosing 1/6th of your pixels also.

Try a leaf shutter camera. Syncs go up to at least 1/500th all the time.

geauxpez · 03-19-2011, 04:55 AM

The point of the article is that the camera doesn't tell you "no". There are creative applications where even if you don't get full power you have an extra creative tool. Even if you push things to 1/500 and it doesn't light 1/6 of the frame in daylight (depending on the scene) it may not matter -- you wouldn't get a black band to crop off and "lose pixels", you get a graduated ND filter. Again, the perk is that the camera doesn't just cease to trigger the flash.

**Digitalis** · 03-19-2011, 05:17 AM

Originally posted by BigDave

Try a leaf shutter camera. Syncs go up to at least 1/500th all the time.

Current leaf shutter lenses from Zeiss for their Hasselblad H series cameras go as high as 1/800th, though Schneider lenses can go as high as 1/1650th so there has clearly been some advances made with leaf shutter lenses.

geauxpez · 03-19-2011, 07:31 AM

Sure...my old Yashica TLR could sync pretty fast too (provided the shutter was healthy) & it was a lot cheaper than those guys. (c:

Wheatfield · 03-19-2011, 09:25 AM

Originally posted by geauxpez

One of the reasons that I jumped ship from Pentax to Nikon was for faster flash sync possibilities. Why not have more creative leeway.

Check out this little hack to get 1/400 out of a D7000 (ala Strobist).

Cheers,

Adam

One of the reasons I don't jump ship to Nikon is because their lenses suck in so many ways.
I'll take my creativity by not having to be creative about working around bad glass.

geauxpez · 03-19-2011, 09:33 AM

Originally posted by Wheatfield

One of the reasons I don't jump ship to Nikon is because their lenses suck in so many ways.
I'll take my creativity by not having to be creative about working around bad glass.

I won't debate you on your lens opinions. I'm very happy with the ones I have so far. I was also quite happy with the lenses that I had for my K10D, though none of the ones that I used regularly were labeled "Pentax". Point being, the topic and discussion of this thread revolves around flash sync and I pointed out an article to other cross-system shooters and/or miscreants in the Non-Pentax Forum that they might find interesting on the flash sync topic.

Happy Saturday!

C-Factor · 03-19-2011, 03:21 PM

Geauxpez,

Good info, I am going to give it a try on the D7000. Recently traded a K5 for a d7000 and bought a D300s. I noticed the D300s and D7000 both have 1/320 of a second flash sync options on the menu, with the cavit that you will have a slightly reduced flash power. I know this is a flash sync thread, but I have to comment on the lenses for Nikon, IMO the the upper end zooms from Nikon are better then Pentax, but Pentax wins with the Limited series primes. So it just depends what you need, both are great brands and i will always have a place in my heart for Pentax and I am thinking of keeping my K10d, considering it is fully depreciatted..

Urkeldaedalus · 03-21-2011, 07:07 AM

Just a quick note on this topic. I was planning on posting something about this in my Ricoh GXR Club thread, but I thought it would be good to note here as well.

I've noticed that the Ricoh GXR, due to the fact that it utilizes as leaf shutter, is capable of a very fast sync speed. I've taken photos at 1/1000 while triggering an off camera flash for example, and I think it may be able to go higher. I still have yet to find a practical use for this, yet, but as a supplement to my Pentax it's interesting that this Ricoh system has this potential.

It's also good to note that flash falloff starts to become a factor when your shutter speed is faster, so there's a tradeoff there.

TomTextura · 05-31-2012, 10:33 PM

Originally posted by Urkeldaedalus

I've noticed that the Ricoh GXR, due to the fact that it utilizes as leaf shutter, is capable of a very fast sync speed. I've taken photos at 1/1000 while triggering an off camera flash for example, and I think it may be able to go higher. I still have yet to find a practical use for this, yet, but as a supplement to my Pentax it's interesting that this Ricoh system has this potential.

Too bad the electronic shutter of the A12 M-mount module has the same slow flash sync as Pentax's 1/180; doesn't offer much promise if and when a K-mount module is released for the GXR.

The practical use of a fast sync time is that you can easily control ambient light without having to have tons of flash power and ND filters to get a darker background when outdoors in bright sunlight. It can make for some very appealing effects. Plus you can use larger apertures to get a shallower depth of field.

I'm tempted to eventually pick up the Fuji X100 for its ability to sync clear up to the fastest shutter speed of 1/4000, given that your flash duration can get that short! That would be so sweet but I'd like to have more than the 23mm lens option, something in the normal to portrait FL range would be nice. The X10 would be a decent option with the same sync ability but it's a pretty small sensor. If they'd only used leaf shutters on the X-Pro1 lenses they would be attracting strobists like crazy. All I can do is dream of a medium format leaf shutter system.

I know, old thread, but whatever. Too lazy right now to try and look for a current one about the same topic.

rawr · 06-01-2012, 07:23 PM

Originally posted by C-Factor

with the cavit that you will have a slightly reduced flash power

Sounds like they are referring to high-speed sync (HSS), especially when they mention reduced power.

If your flash unit supports it (eg Pentax AF540, AF360, Metz 50, Sigma 610 Super etc), your Pentax DSLR (even the K-x) can do HSS too, giving you sync speeds well above 1/180.

**BigDave** · 06-08-2012, 09:02 AM

Sync speeds with leaf shutters, by there design, can be much faster than focal plane shutters. As the focal plane shutter eventually turns into a traveling slit of varying sizes, going across the length/width of the film/sensor, that will block a portion of the film/sensor, the leaf shutter has to always fully open or close. Otherwise the partially opened shutter starts acting as an iris. When the leaf shutter is at full travel/fully open, bingo, the flash goes off.

OK Pentax, you want to do something different with a FF DSLR? Here's one for you! Give us the FF DSLR and come out with a few lenses (the 77mm is a good one to start with) that incorporates a leaf shutter as well as the FP shutter, as some medium format cameras do. Then you can take full advantage of fill flash across the full (or nearly so) range of shutter speeds. Yes, the lenses would be a BIT more expensive, but it would DEFINITELY be something different! And for you 645 users, does Pentax offer this option for these lenses? if so, we are talking about a different mount on the 645 lenses to work with the DSLR Kmount, and we are there!

Regards,

jogiba · 06-08-2012, 09:58 AM

My Pentax 67 90mm F2.8 LS lens has 1/500 sec sync.

ihasa · 06-08-2012, 03:42 PM

Originally posted by rawr

Sounds like they are referring to high-speed sync (HSS), especially when they mention reduced power.

If your flash unit supports it (eg Pentax AF540, AF360, Metz 50, Sigma 610 Super etc), your Pentax DSLR (even the K-x) can do HSS too, giving you sync speeds well above 1/180.

I noticed no problem on shutter speeds 1/500 and over with my K7 and my trusty AF280T flash set to 'H'. I thought the H meant 'High' as in 'High Power' but I guess it must mean 'High Speed'?

[Edit - I don't know if I dreamt it or what, but I can't get the same results now.... ]

TomTextura · 06-08-2012, 07:39 PM

HSS is not of much interest to me. It's a pretty big compromise. It sacrifices a lot of power to fire a bunch of times in rapid succession and because of the multiple bursts it won't freeze motion. It might be able to do the trick in a few particular situations in a pinch but it's not much of a real solution as far as I'm concerned. I'd rather work with a more powerful strobe and a 5 to 10 stop ND filter to get the desired effect. There's a pretty good tutorial over at Strobist.

03-13-2011, 05:42 PM	#1
geauxpez Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Atlanta Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,196	Faster Flash Sync One of the reasons that I jumped ship from Pentax to Nikon was for faster flash sync possibilities. Why not have more creative leeway. Check out this little hack to get 1/400 out of a D7000 (ala Strobist). Cheers, Adam

05-31-2012, 10:33 PM	#10
TomTextura Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Denver Photos: Albums Posts: 570	Originally posted by Urkeldaedalus I've noticed that the Ricoh GXR, due to the fact that it utilizes as leaf shutter, is capable of a very fast sync speed. I've taken photos at 1/1000 while triggering an off camera flash for example, and I think it may be able to go higher. I still have yet to find a practical use for this, yet, but as a supplement to my Pentax it's interesting that this Ricoh system has this potential. Too bad the electronic shutter of the A12 M-mount module has the same slow flash sync as Pentax's 1/180; doesn't offer much promise if and when a K-mount module is released for the GXR. The practical use of a fast sync time is that you can easily control ambient light without having to have tons of flash power and ND filters to get a darker background when outdoors in bright sunlight. It can make for some very appealing effects. Plus you can use larger apertures to get a shallower depth of field. I'm tempted to eventually pick up the Fuji X100 for its ability to sync clear up to the fastest shutter speed of 1/4000, given that your flash duration can get that short! That would be so sweet but I'd like to have more than the 23mm lens option, something in the normal to portrait FL range would be nice. The X10 would be a decent option with the same sync ability but it's a pretty small sensor. If they'd only used leaf shutters on the X-Pro1 lenses they would be attracting strobists like crazy. All I can do is dream of a medium format leaf shutter system. I know, old thread, but whatever. Too lazy right now to try and look for a current one about the same topic. Last edited by TomTextura; 05-31-2012 at 10:50 PM. Reason: added bit about larger apertures

06-08-2012, 03:42 PM	#14
ihasa Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: West Midlands Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,066	Originally posted by rawr Sounds like they are referring to high-speed sync (HSS), especially when they mention reduced power. If your flash unit supports it (eg Pentax AF540, AF360, Metz 50, Sigma 610 Super etc), your Pentax DSLR (even the K-x) can do HSS too, giving you sync speeds well above 1/180. I noticed no problem on shutter speeds 1/500 and over with my K7 and my trusty AF280T flash set to 'H'. I thought the H meant 'High' as in 'High Power' but I guess it must mean 'High Speed'? [Edit - I don't know if I dreamt it or what, but I can't get the same results now.... ] Last edited by ihasa; 06-08-2012 at 03:52 PM.

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03-18-2011, 08:47 PM	#2
BigDave Site Supporter Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Hudson Valley, NY Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,626	Sorry, this is bogus. Sync speed is the fastest speed that can be used such that the first shutter curtain is open before the second curtain starts to close (focal plane shutter). You really can't "push" the sync speed. The dedicated flashes just try to fool proof the system so you do not shoot on a shutter speed that will not give a full frame exposure (any shutter speed higher than the sync speed). Pentax gets to 1/180th of a second, Nikon is synced to 1/200th, or at least the ones I have run across. The article even states (you can go to 1/500th if you don't mind loosing 1/6th of the frame). If you loose 1/6th of the frame, you are loosing 1/6th of your pixels also. Try a leaf shutter camera. Syncs go up to at least 1/500th all the time.

03-19-2011, 04:55 AM	#3
geauxpez Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Atlanta Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,196 Original Poster	The point of the article is that the camera doesn't tell you "no". There are creative applications where even if you don't get full power you have an extra creative tool. Even if you push things to 1/500 and it doesn't light 1/6 of the frame in daylight (depending on the scene) it may not matter -- you wouldn't get a black band to crop off and "lose pixels", you get a graduated ND filter. Again, the perk is that the camera doesn't just cease to trigger the flash.

03-19-2011, 05:17 AM	#4
Digitalis Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Melbourne, Victoria Photos: Gallery Posts: 11,694	Originally posted by BigDave Try a leaf shutter camera. Syncs go up to at least 1/500th all the time. Current leaf shutter lenses from Zeiss for their Hasselblad H series cameras go as high as 1/800th, though Schneider lenses can go as high as 1/1650th so there has clearly been some advances made with leaf shutter lenses.

03-19-2011, 07:31 AM	#5
geauxpez Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Atlanta Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,196 Original Poster	Sure...my old Yashica TLR could sync pretty fast too (provided the shutter was healthy) & it was a lot cheaper than those guys. (c:

03-19-2011, 09:25 AM	#6
Wheatfield Moderator Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: The wheatfields of Canada Posts: 15,981	Originally posted by geauxpez One of the reasons that I jumped ship from Pentax to Nikon was for faster flash sync possibilities. Why not have more creative leeway. Check out this little hack to get 1/400 out of a D7000 (ala Strobist). Cheers, Adam One of the reasons I don't jump ship to Nikon is because their lenses suck in so many ways. I'll take my creativity by not having to be creative about working around bad glass.

03-19-2011, 09:33 AM	#7
geauxpez Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Atlanta Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,196 Original Poster	Originally posted by Wheatfield One of the reasons I don't jump ship to Nikon is because their lenses suck in so many ways. I'll take my creativity by not having to be creative about working around bad glass. I won't debate you on your lens opinions. I'm very happy with the ones I have so far. I was also quite happy with the lenses that I had for my K10D, though none of the ones that I used regularly were labeled "Pentax". Point being, the topic and discussion of this thread revolves around flash sync and I pointed out an article to other cross-system shooters and/or miscreants in the Non-Pentax Forum that they might find interesting on the flash sync topic. Happy Saturday!

03-19-2011, 03:21 PM	#8
C-Factor Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Albuquerque, New Mexico Posts: 113	Geauxpez, Good info, I am going to give it a try on the D7000. Recently traded a K5 for a d7000 and bought a D300s. I noticed the D300s and D7000 both have 1/320 of a second flash sync options on the menu, with the cavit that you will have a slightly reduced flash power. I know this is a flash sync thread, but I have to comment on the lenses for Nikon, IMO the the upper end zooms from Nikon are better then Pentax, but Pentax wins with the Limited series primes. So it just depends what you need, both are great brands and i will always have a place in my heart for Pentax and I am thinking of keeping my K10d, considering it is fully depreciatted..

03-21-2011, 07:07 AM	#9
Urkeldaedalus Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Iowa Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,369	Just a quick note on this topic. I was planning on posting something about this in my Ricoh GXR Club thread, but I thought it would be good to note here as well. I've noticed that the Ricoh GXR, due to the fact that it utilizes as leaf shutter, is capable of a very fast sync speed. I've taken photos at 1/1000 while triggering an off camera flash for example, and I think it may be able to go higher. I still have yet to find a practical use for this, yet, but as a supplement to my Pentax it's interesting that this Ricoh system has this potential. It's also good to note that flash falloff starts to become a factor when your shutter speed is faster, so there's a tradeoff there.

06-01-2012, 07:23 PM	#11
rawr Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 11,913	Originally posted by C-Factor with the cavit that you will have a slightly reduced flash power Sounds like they are referring to high-speed sync (HSS), especially when they mention reduced power. If your flash unit supports it (eg Pentax AF540, AF360, Metz 50, Sigma 610 Super etc), your Pentax DSLR (even the K-x) can do HSS too, giving you sync speeds well above 1/180.

06-08-2012, 09:02 AM	#12
BigDave Site Supporter Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Hudson Valley, NY Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,626	Sync speeds with leaf shutters, by there design, can be much faster than focal plane shutters. As the focal plane shutter eventually turns into a traveling slit of varying sizes, going across the length/width of the film/sensor, that will block a portion of the film/sensor, the leaf shutter has to always fully open or close. Otherwise the partially opened shutter starts acting as an iris. When the leaf shutter is at full travel/fully open, bingo, the flash goes off. OK Pentax, you want to do something different with a FF DSLR? Here's one for you! Give us the FF DSLR and come out with a few lenses (the 77mm is a good one to start with) that incorporates a leaf shutter as well as the FP shutter, as some medium format cameras do. Then you can take full advantage of fill flash across the full (or nearly so) range of shutter speeds. Yes, the lenses would be a BIT more expensive, but it would DEFINITELY be something different! And for you 645 users, does Pentax offer this option for these lenses? if so, we are talking about a different mount on the 645 lenses to work with the DSLR Kmount, and we are there! Regards,

06-08-2012, 09:58 AM	#13
jogiba Banned Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Millstone,NJ Posts: 6,491	My Pentax 67 90mm F2.8 LS lens has 1/500 sec sync.

06-08-2012, 07:39 PM	#15
TomTextura Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Denver Photos: Albums Posts: 570	HSS is not of much interest to me. It's a pretty big compromise. It sacrifices a lot of power to fire a bunch of times in rapid succession and because of the multiple bursts it won't freeze motion. It might be able to do the trick in a few particular situations in a pinch but it's not much of a real solution as far as I'm concerned. I'd rather work with a more powerful strobe and a 5 to 10 stop ND filter to get the desired effect. There's a pretty good tutorial over at Strobist.