[GordonZA]

Hi All,

Being a bird photographer and involved in publishing bird books I have decided to get myself a full frame system with a matching 500mm and tele-convertor. This is something that Pentax sadly no longer manufactures new and second hand goods are just not available. If Pentax still made these systems it would be no contest...

I need some advice of which system to get. I realise this is very personal and subjective so each person will have their preference. What I would like to know is which system is better for my application. The kind of bird photography I am talking about is not going to the local duck pond and taking pictures of fat well fed geese getting bread from children but rather trying to get publishable pictures of birds barely larger than the size of your thumb that are very shy and move about really quickly under a forest canopy where there is poor light.

So I need something that has the reach but is still managable weight wise and can focus in those conditions.

There are two systems I am considering:
1. Canon 1D mkIV with a 500mm F4 plus a 2X and 1.4X convertor

OR

2. Nikon D3s with a 500mm F4 plus a 2X and 1.4X convertor

I know both are extreme "sports type" cameras and built for this kind of photography.

Which would you go for and why? For my application which is better / easier to use?

By the way, my Pentax gear stays in the bag as I love it too much to get rid of it!!

Thanks for any advice on this!!

Cheers,
Gordon

[Adam]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the 1D mk4 not full frame?

In any case I would go with the D3s due to its incredible image quality and high ISO performance. Obviously this is at the expense of a little resolution, but I think it would be worth it.

As far as lenses go, I can recommend the 500mm F4.5 from sigma, but I haven't demo'd the Nikon counterpart.

With that said, the K-5 would also do a great job for birding shots, but you wouldn't get quite the same framerate or buffer size (however the money you save on the body could be applied toward more lenses).

[Adam]

Sigma 500mm f/4.5 EX DG APO HSM Autofocus Lens 184306 B&H Photo

There's the lens in the Nikon mount, and it'll also be coming out for Pentax soon, as well as the 120-300/2.8

[Digitalis]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the 1D mk4 not full frame?

quite right, the canon 1D MKIV is APS-H which is a few mm shy of full frame,I own a 1D MKIIn which is an 8Mp incarnation of the 1D MKIV

The Nikon D3s - which I also own is full frame, Nikon DSLR cameras have the greatest similarity with Pentax DSLR cameras - apart from the lack of mode dial they are the same every button does exactly what it is supposed to, unlike the canon cameras where the functions can shift depending on which mode you are in.

Also bear in mind with Nikon DSLR cameras you are going to have to shift to using Compact flash memory cards - and the D3s can use two of them at the same time and you will need fast cards to keep up with the 9fps (11FPS in DX mode sans AF) 12Mp of the D3s

Apart form the operational quirks of the 1D MKIV and the Nikon D3s I'll admit to being a bit biased here but I prefer the Nikon camera over the Canon- mostly because of the absolutely phenomenal High ISO performance of the D3s Canon sensors are lagging a bit behind IMO at equivalent ISO values. but at the same time I would be wary of buying either of these cameras just yet because rumour has it there is a replacement for the D3s in the wings waiting to take centre stage at whatever time Nikon chooses*.

The Nikkor 500mm f/4G ED VR lens is every bit as good as it's Canon counterpart- perhaps better flare performance due to the Nano-crystal coatings used with it I own the Nikkor 400mm f/2.8G ED VR and coupled with a 2X teleconverter it gives me an effective 800mm f/5.6 with a barely noticable drop in IQ.

*though with supply chain problems that are appearing in japan don't expect to get any equipment any time soon, I know people who have lenses on order and have had messages sent to them that the orders won't be fulfilled until 2012 at the earliest.

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Last edited by Digitalis; 06-27-2011 at 04:41 AM.

[GordonZA]

Thanks Adam and Digitalis for getting back to me.

Adam, I have considered the K5 Sigma 500mm combo as an alternative. For me, the other consideration is AF performance. While the K5 is almost a match for the 7D it is not yet in the league of the much more expensive D3s and 1DmkIV.

I was using my friends 1DmkIIn the other day with his 100-400mm and that was considerably faster at locking onto my subject than a K5 + 300mm SDM.

To be fair the K5 was never built to try and match either the Canon or the Nikon in the AF dept.

One thing I like about going the Nikon route is the fact I can have a Nikon body combined with the Nikon lens system, ie everything is Nikon, same with Canon.

Currently I am leaning towards the Nikon and perhaps waiting for the rumoured D4 to make an appearance... (would probably have to wait anyway until production recovers after the terrible quake)

Even though the K5 is steller in the high ISO again both the Nikon and Canon outperform it... again, at those prices they should!

I have seen rumours of Pentax possibly bringing out a 500 F5.6... though for me I need every speed and high ISO and AF advantage I can get.

I have found a place near me that rents out equipment so am going to try and organise one weekend with the Nikon gear and see if I like it...

Thanks again!

[Clicker]

Nikon D3s, can't remember the particulars but that "swedish/danish" shooter who found problems with the Canon then couldn't get Canon support switched fully to the D3s and is now a very happy camper.
Some say controls are easier on the Nikon vs Canon; i've shot both but i adapt well so it's not an issue for me.
The Nikon can accept both FX and DX lenses, Canon it's either or.
Nikon colours are similar to pentax's right out of the box, Canon's is cooler imo.
Although Canon locks focus quicker, Nikon has more keepers, Canon imo forgoed accuracy for focus lock.

[Digitalis]

You will also want to buy a flash for wildlife work SB600 or SB900 - High ISO is all well and good, but if the light isn't right you are still going to get a bad image. Again, Nikon has the advantage with it's advanced CLS system (another reason why i'm ditching canon) which makes using wireless flash substantially easier. For my wildlife work I have been working on getting the flash off my camera and even with a pentax K-7 this is easy to do and the results speak for themselves:

Pentax K-7 with Sigma 100-300mm f/4 APO EX DG (150-450mm 35mm Equiv) with a wireless Pentax AF360FGZ

[K-9]

The bodies with built in grips like the D3s and 1D-MKIV are very heavy. You said you didn't want a body with that much weight, so I am not sure why you are not considering the D700 and 5D-MKII.

D3s = 1240g
1D-MkIV = 1180g
D700 = 990g
5D-MkII = 810g

The D700 has the same megapixels as the D3s (12MP), and the 5D-MkII has 21MP as opposed to the 1D-MKIV having only 16MP. Not to mention the $$$$ you'd save.

[bkpix]

Arthur Morris, who is no slouch in the bird photography department, shoots (mostly) with a Canon 1dIV, which -- as others point out -- is a 1.3 crop sensor, not full frame. That's a real advantage for people who need reach, like wildlife and sports photographers, and the camera is also fast of frame and very tough.

I think if you price it all out with lenses of similar reach, Canon comes out cheaper than Nikon by a significant amount and has similar image quality.

[GordonZA]

Not too worried about very high MP so the 12MP D3s is fine, in fact in those instances where I would need extra reach you can apparently switch to DX mode and instantly enjoy a 1.5X gain in reach?

What I mean by weight is not so much the body but the lens. For example Pentax made the stunning 600mm but it weighed a ton. Same with the Nikon and Canon 600's. Their respective 400mm F2.8's are just too short and would have me sinking into the mud...

I have used the 1DmkIIn and 500m FD lens combo for a day and that was weighted nicely and felt balanced. I could still manage to spend a day shooting handheld with that and that is an older system with real forged steel and lead.....

I think my mind is more or less made up towards the Nikon now...
Things I like.. excellent AF, best high ISO, ability to switch between DX, FX and an inbetween mode. same brand combination of lenses, flash, body, etc... ergonomics! (very similar layout to the Pentax, I never enjoyed the Canon personally)

Because the books are bringing in the income, I am not too worried about the price so would rather go all out and get the top of the range and get a camera I will really enjoy using for the next few years...

I have been surfing the net and watching all the comparisons and reviews on both systems.
Both really are excellent and from what people are saying they are just so similar. One might edge the other in one departement and the other will be better in another. So for me it is now coming down to what I like....

Thanks again guys!!

Now I just wonder how long before new stock arrives?

[ll_coffee_lP]

All things being equal then...the best choice would be the one that feels the best in your hands and gets you the results you need.

As mentioned above don't forgo looking at the D700 as well. Significantly cheaper and may have the necessary qualities you desire. I love mine.

c[_]