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10-07-2011, 05:51 AM   #46
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QuoteOriginally posted by Emacs Quote
Those resolution tests are only valuable when comparing lenses with the same FOV. Samyang is a 14mm lens on FF. The oly should be compared with 24mm lens on FF. It would be hard for the 12mm lens with twice lesser magnification to achieve details and crispness of 24mm lens
Keep in mind, the wider lens are usually more prone to optical deffects. And, in addition, lesser sensor makes them even more visible (more «magnification»). So, I wouldn't bet a penny on oly when comparing their 12mm vs any decent 24mm on any full frame camera.
Canon EF 24 mm f/1.4L II USM Image resolution :



Olympus M.Zuiko Digital 12 mm f/2.0 ED (m4/3rds ) :


10-07-2011, 09:23 AM   #47
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QuoteOriginally posted by jogiba Quote
The new state of the art in sensors and lenses will not kill P&S cameras but will kill the market for larger APS-C and FF cameras. The myriad of lenses coming out for m4/3rds are light years better than than APS-C lenses. The m4/3rds sensor is the sweet spot for stills and video were the lenses could be built more compact than APS-C lenses.
These graphs are all measuring LP/mm (line pairs/mm) on the y-axis, NOT lw/ph (line widths/ picture height). So even though you may approach 80 line pairs/mm, you're talking about a m43 sensor with about half the height of a full frame sensor. So you need to have double the LP/mm value that a full frame lens on a full frame sensor does to get the same image resolution. Many of the graphs you show have more than 40lp/mm for the full frame lenses.
10-07-2011, 09:40 AM   #48
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QuoteOriginally posted by jogiba Quote
Oh paleeeze, if I want ultra shallow DOF I could use my 85mm F1.4 on my K-7 or 165mm F2.8 on my Pentax 67. Do YOU have a Pentax 67 ?
My DS2 w/85mm @F1.4:


My Pentax 67 w/400mm @F4 :
You mentioned pentax positively in a post?

(Cool shot )
10-07-2011, 10:17 AM   #49
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Jogiba, you realize lpmm is measured at the sensor? So micro 4/3rds needs to be normalized (enlarged) to be compared to APS-C/FF. This is why every site that does these measurements says not to compare between systems/cameras. You'll notice that medium format lenses often have less lp/mm than FF lenses.

And many consider microcontrast and perceived sharpness more important than resolution.


Last edited by Eruditass; 10-07-2011 at 11:21 AM.
10-07-2011, 10:49 AM   #50
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Maybe he's too busy posting graphs to answer our questions Mine was: "Should I believe the lovely (70mm f/2.4) Limited is a POS?"
10-07-2011, 11:23 AM   #51
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Maybe he's too busy posting graphs to answer our questions Mine was: "Should I believe the lovely (70mm f/2.4) Limited is a POS?"
He's also probably ignoring the conclusions in the articles he's pulling graphs from.

On the DA70mm:

QuoteQuote:
Even after taking just a few photographs you can tell that the Pentax 2.4/70 is a very well-done instrument, able to produce high quality pictures straight from the maximum relative aperture. Chart tests fully prove this thesis and the results are presented in a picture below.

In the frame centre, the lens comes near the 40 lpmm border already by f/2.4 and exceeds it right after f/2.8. At the sharpest apertures – in the range from f/4 to f/8 - we get MTF values close to the record level of 44-46 lpmm. You could hardly have any reservations here.

The situation is a bit worse for the frame edge but it doesn’t mean there’s something really serious to worry about.
Pentax smc DA 70 mm f/2.4 Limited review - Image resolution - Lenstip.com
10-07-2011, 12:02 PM   #52
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QuoteOriginally posted by ripit Quote
I'm thinking that even something a simple and common as low light will kill this cameras performance. How do you think it would compare in a dim lit room to a high iso dslr or even some of the larger sensor compact cameras?
Well I had a shock this evening (night) when a business friend of my wife's asked me to take a picture of him and his son (with his iPhone 4 not 4s) against a backdrop of the spectacular lights of the some of the world's highest towers lining the Huangpu River in Shanghai .... not only were the faces perfectly exposed but so was the background. Zooming in gave excellent detail. You don't need a P&S if you're carrying one of those (or the new 4s) and for those that can afford them they absolutely will replace a P&S. I'm still in shock.

10-07-2011, 12:16 PM   #53
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QuoteOriginally posted by Frogfish Quote
.... not only were the faces perfectly exposed but so was the background. Zooming in gave excellent detail.
That will indeed be something to watch...
10-07-2011, 01:14 PM   #54
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QuoteOriginally posted by Frogfish Quote
Well I had a shock this evening (night) when a business friend of my wife's asked me to take a picture of him and his son (with his iPhone 4 not 4s) against a backdrop of the spectacular lights of the some of the world's highest towers lining the Huangpu River in Shanghai .... not only were the faces perfectly exposed but so was the background. Zooming in gave excellent detail. You don't need a P&S if you're carrying one of those (or the new 4s) and for those that can afford them they absolutely will replace a P&S. I'm still in shock.
That's what I've been saying, and the BSI'd 4s is going to be even better.

That said I was able to try a Q, E-PL3, X100, and GF3 standing in a store today. In order of sexiness-in-hand:

1) Q (small, solid, Pentaxy-interface)
2) X100 + GF3 tied (X100 is largest, but feels old-school good. GF3 gripped well in hand and seemed to respond well.)
3) E-PL3 (felt like it would pop out of my grip like a watermelon seed. Needs a better contour/grip if it's going to be that small, yet heavy)


.
10-07-2011, 01:22 PM   #55
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Jay, I saw a test with full samples today (Japanese site) between the Nikon P300 / Q / Nex 5N. The 5N samples predictably (with that APS-C sensor) blew the others away, however the P300 was noticeably better than the Q.
10-07-2011, 01:43 PM   #56
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QuoteOriginally posted by Frogfish Quote
Jay, I saw a test with full samples today (Japanese site) between the Nikon P300 / Q / Nex 5N. The 5N samples predictably (with that APS-C sensor) blew the others away, however the P300 was noticeably better than the Q.
I wish they had a 5N there, I would have liked to handle one alongside the others.

BTW that ranking wasn't about IQ, only 'feel', because I didn't have a card to save any images, I only looked on the LCD playback (which can tell you next to nothing about IQ, only about LCD playback quality )

I mentioned that the X100's 23mm f/2 lens minimum focus distance seemed to suck the bag, and the girl mentioned that it had a 'macro mode' which allows the close focus, which I then tried. I think that 'macro mode' is a P&S hokiness, but I'm assuming that particular lens/interface design mandated it. (If not it's just dumb.)
10-07-2011, 10:18 PM   #57
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
I mentioned that the X100's 23mm f/2 lens minimum focus distance seemed to suck the bag, and the girl mentioned that it had a 'macro mode' which allows the close focus, which I then tried. I think that 'macro mode' is a P&S hokiness, but I'm assuming that particular lens/interface design mandated it. (If not it's just dumb.)
Macro mode on a P&S often physically shifts the lens elements, like adding an extension tube behind an SLR lens. So I don't think it's hokey at all — it's a practical, physical thing, not presets+postprocessing like "ultra beach smile suntan mode" or somesuch.
10-08-2011, 11:32 AM   #58
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
Isn't that a rebadged CCTV lens? The images from it I can scare up don't look all that stunning. Anyway, it is a MF option for m4/3, I guess.
Have you seen this review?

1st Look world premiere! The SLR Magic/Noktor 12mm f/1.6 Premium Lens for Micro 4/3! | STEVE HUFF PHOTOS

regardless, I am more impressed with the Oly 12/2.
10-13-2011, 07:43 AM   #59
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QuoteOriginally posted by Frogfish Quote
Well I had a shock this evening (night) when a business friend of my wife's asked me to take a picture of him and his son (with his iPhone 4 not 4s) against a backdrop of the spectacular lights of the some of the world's highest towers lining the Huangpu River in Shanghai .... not only were the faces perfectly exposed but so was the background. Zooming in gave excellent detail. You don't need a P&S if you're carrying one of those (or the new 4s) and for those that can afford them they absolutely will replace a P&S. I'm still in shock.
The Samsung Galaxy S2 is even better!

My son's Galaxy spanks my IP4 in the IQ dept.
10-13-2011, 08:09 PM   #60
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QuoteOriginally posted by dylansalt Quote
The Samsung Galaxy S2 is even better!

My son's Galaxy spanks my IP4 in the IQ dept.
I think the jury's out on that. But here's what strikes me. Look at Features and Specifications - Samsung Galaxy S? II, available at AT&T | Samsung Mobile, or the features/specifications page for any Android phone. You get, as in this case, the camera features mixed in with discussion of the screen and overall thinness. In the specifications column, the amount of digital zoom is listed as a key feature. In the longer laundry list of camera details, ISO (not "high ISO" or anything, just "ISO") is mixed in with a bunch of random software features ("Online Image Uploading").

Now compare Apple - iPhone 4S - Shoot amazing photos with the 8MP camera. — "The you-can't-believe-its-on-a-phone-camera". This page actually talks about the optics (5 elements, f/2.4), touts the sensor tech and why it's beneficial, and when it mentions the flash, stresses that you can force it off (rather than pretending that having a built-in flash is somehow awesome rather than an unfortunate necessity.)

It may very well be the case that top Android phones rival the image quality of the iPhone 4 or 4S, but it doesn't seem like any of the Android makers really care about that. They're just hitting the marketing bullet points, badly. Kind of like back a decade ago when suddenly every phone had to play MP3s — you couldn't really tell if the devices were any good from looking at the specs, because making the specs look competitive was the only thing the manufacturers really cared about.

I won't pretend that Apple is some kind of magical company, but it's obvious that they do place a value on the camera way beyond what any Android maker does.

The Nokia N series was pretty much the only hope for someone who went even beyond that — but given their sad sell-out story, that's pretty much dead in the water. Oh well.
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