Fuji Says It's Serious About Full Frame; Should Pentax Too?

DSims · 09-20-2012, 05:05 PM

Fuji is openly saying they're seriously looking at producing a Full Frame XF camera; Should Pentax do the same? What are your thoughts on this?

I'm not sure myself yet, but there's an obvious difference: Fuji has a new mount, not even 3 years old, which is increasing in momentum and popularity; Pentax has a mount which, 3 years from now, will be 40 years old. While it's been going down in popularity, it's well entrenched, has a loyal user base, and has had 25 million lenses produced.

Pentax also has the "stigma" of being at least 3 generations behind Canon and Nikon in a now mature FF DSLR market; Fuji is rapidly growing market share in a "new" mirrorless market, and could actually be the first to release a mirrorless FF ILC. In contrast, Pentax is trying to maintain market share in a traditional market and then gradually increase it. Ricoh also has to live with the history of how Pentax has handled (or, under Hoya, not handled) this situation.

So, does all this mean that Pentax has to maintain their traditional approach of keeping key products like camera bodies a secret until less than 2 months before release? Or could they be more open like Fuji?

Fuji looking into the posibility of a full frame mirrorless camera, some XF lenses will be compatible | Photo Rumors

Blue · 09-20-2012, 05:14 PM

Nikon's slr mount is 16 years older than the K-mount.

mee · 09-20-2012, 05:22 PM

What does the age of the original mount design matter?

wanderography · 09-20-2012, 05:34 PM

I look at it like this, buying a camera is not like buying a dvd player or tv, it's an investment... Would you invest in someone who keeps things from you till the last minute? Someone who does not keep promises? Or a business that keeps being sold and resold. You don't hint to your investors on your plans, you give them a roadmap andpiece of paper with pretty little colors to show where you are headed... If not they are not a company for professionals or anyone who's livelihood counts on photography, if so I feel bad for you. Fuji has gained customers because they are constantly promoting and promising and than following through with there promises in a very short time. Pentax does not even want to tell you where they are headed in the future, they just want to say "We want to be a top competitor in the DSLR Market", ya ok, you have a plan? You don't show a plan you don't invest, unless your a fan of games like russian roulette or believe you have a chance at the lottery, cause thats all it is with pentax, hanging around waiting for chance, rumors, rumors, rumors, and nothing else...

MSM · 09-20-2012, 06:28 PM

You have to respect what Fuji has done. I just wish Pentax would take a close look at Fuji's Marketing. It seems like Fuji is doing what Pentax should have done. Perhaps the Fuji exec. frequent the PF for ideas. LOL

MSM · 09-20-2012, 06:32 PM

I also thought it was interesting the discussion that most of the XF lenses would work on FF. They do seem to have a clear plan of attack. Though, in fairness, if Pentax had released these cameras many here at PF would only talk of all the quality control issues seen in the X10, X100.

DSims · 09-20-2012, 06:35 PM

Originally posted by mee

What does the age of the original mount design matter?

It's relevant in the context of not being a new market; It hardly matters whether it's 25 or 50 years old, though. I don't think Blue's making a big point here because he's

ing at us.

Originally posted by bmonki

you give them a roadmap andpiece of paper with pretty little colors to show where you are headed... If not they are not a company for professionals or anyone who's livelihood counts on photography, if so I feel bad for you.

I agree with your ideas about trust and secrecy, but Canon and Nikon don't tell us about their new models either; Pentax can just keep their secrets better because they're smaller.

Winder · 09-20-2012, 07:34 PM

I had a 3 hour ride home today where I thought about nothing buy moving to a Nikon D800E. I really like the XP-1 and the new X-E1. If Fuji will release a FF version of the X-E1 I will buy it. Fuji is an innovative company with deep pockets and a strong R&D department. Fujinon glass is really, really good. They currently make all the Hassy MF glass and the Sony professional glass used for HD TV broadcasting.

Coming out and saying that they are looking at producing a FF EVIL is a good move. A lot of people will wait to see what Fuji brings to market before making a decision. Sony seems to be the only other company headed in that direction and I think Fuji can deliver a better product.

Verglace · 09-20-2012, 07:36 PM

I agree with the above, Fuji is making all the right moves right now. Fuji hit the spot with x-pro 1 while Pentax completely missed it with the k-01.

Pentax seems too scared to bring the fight to the big boys and is slowly leaking customers. Pentax is pursuing a self fulfilling prophecy right now. They don't want to release FF because they think they will not have a customer base for it. However, because they are not releasing an FF, all their existing customers who want an FF will switch, customers who like to think they will switch to FF in the future would not consider pentax, while they only keep the customers who are contempt with APS-C. So when they finally do release an FF camera, there will be hardly any left that want FF as most have already switched. The FF they release will have to be far superior to its current competition in order to lure people back in. The prime time to release an FF camera would have been at the start of this year because now that other manufacturers are coming out with "affordable" FF...

sjwaldron · 09-20-2012, 07:52 PM

I wouldn't say they did a great job on technical execution of things like AF (x100, x-pro) and manual focus on the X-Pro1, but Fuji certainly made visually appealing tools that have had a lot of interest. It goes to show with a product that has the right level of appeal, you don't need a current market to be successful.

Winder · 09-20-2012, 07:58 PM

Originally posted by sjwaldron

I wouldn't say they did a great job on technical execution of things like AF (x100, x-pro) and manual focus on the X-Pro1, but Fuji certainly made visually appealing tools that have had a lot of interest. It goes to show with a product that has the right level of appeal, you don't need a current market to be successful.

The latest firmware for the XP-1 is said to double AF speed and write speed. It also improves MF. The firmware updates the lenses as well as the body. We will have to see if the user base agrees, but the first round of reviewers have been impressed with the improvements.

Winder · 09-20-2012, 08:01 PM

Originally posted by Verglace

I agree with the above, Fuji is making all the right moves right now. Fuji hit the spot with x-pro 1 while Pentax completely missed it with the k-01.

Pentax seems too scared to bring the fight to the big boys and is slowly leaking customers. Pentax is pursuing a self fulfilling prophecy right now. They don't want to release FF because they think they will not have a customer base for it. However, because they are not releasing an FF, all their existing customers who want an FF will switch, customers who like to think they will switch to FF in the future would not consider pentax, while they only keep the customers who are contempt with APS-C. So when they finally do release an FF camera, there will be hardly any left that want FF as most have already switched. The FF they release will have to be far superior to its current competition in order to lure people back in. The prime time to release an FF camera would have been at the start of this year because now that other manufacturers are coming out with "affordable" FF...

I don't think Pentax has had the resources to bring a fight to the big boys. I'm not sure they have them now, but they are definitely in a better position. The Pentax talent pool was gutted by Hoya. It may take a couple of years to rebuild that. I would hope that Ricoh's R&D department is assisting in developing certain technologies that the two companies can share. Ricoh has a good R&D and deep pockets.

Rupert · 09-20-2012, 08:08 PM

I'm eying the X-E1, the preliminary review looks good for both AF and MF, and it's a fine looking camera in a small package. I have nothing but high praise for my little X10, it has served me wonderfully the past year, and Fuji innovation is contagious.......I hope Pentax will catch it! My K5 is wonderful, but I don't think Ricoh is staying in the game as well as some. They need something to rattle the market. Fuji roamed the Forums, listened to what they heard, and built the X100...the rest is history. It's still a good seller, and its price has held over time too.

As for the "secretive" attitude of Pentax...they had better change that, it is part of what made Hoya so disliked and untrusted. Their base needs to be informed, or with all the options of today, they will go with somebody they think is listening.
Regards!

sjwaldron · 09-20-2012, 08:12 PM

Originally posted by Verglace

I agree with the above, Fuji is making all the right moves right now. Fuji hit the spot with x-pro 1 while Pentax completely missed it with the k-01.

I wouldn't say they totally missed the mark with the K-01. It has the potential and is generally a decent camera from my experience with it (no discernible difference in results compared to the K-5), but they didn't invest enough into it and they only halfheartedly targeted the camera for video use where I think they should have gone all of the way.

The design gimmick was a failure to many current Pentax users and other serious photographers/videographers. The biggest problem I have with Marc's design in practice is that it is form over function... Well, and the "stop light" buttons and other aspects are not needed and make the camera appear unprofessional.

They had the right bones to make an amazing interchangeable lens video camera that takes great photos and can use millions of K-mount/M42 lenses. It was lacking important tweaks and features that would have made it the next cult enthusiast video camera. Many of the tweaks are in software, but there were some hardware aspects like an articulating screen that would have given the camera a true purpose.

Had the camera cost an extra few hundred and had:
- K-5 like design and function with dedicated buttons and potentially WR.
- Improvements like peaking while video is being recorded, hdmi that outputs video/liveview/uncompressed video, mic levels shown while recording, high bit rate encoding option, video record button that isn't stuck in P mode, and others that target the video usage...
- A viewfinder to appease people who wanted that. I think an optional EVF would have been a decent compromise.
- Basic articulation of the screen, similar to their new X-5.

sjwaldron · 09-20-2012, 08:20 PM

Originally posted by Winder

The latest firmware for the XP-1 is said to double AF speed and write speed. It also improves MF. The firmware updates the lenses as well as the body. We will have to see if the user base agrees, but the first round of reviewers have been impressed with the improvements.

Thanks, I haven't really kept up on them lately.

It's great to see that Fuji actually puts the time in to improving their existing products like that. It shows they have some pride in their work and want to please their new customer base.

09-20-2012, 05:05 PM	#1
DSims Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Southern California Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,236	Fuji Says It's Serious About Full Frame; Should Pentax Too? Fuji is openly saying they're seriously looking at producing a Full Frame XF camera; Should Pentax do the same? What are your thoughts on this? I'm not sure myself yet, but there's an obvious difference: Fuji has a new mount, not even 3 years old, which is increasing in momentum and popularity; Pentax has a mount which, 3 years from now, will be 40 years old. While it's been going down in popularity, it's well entrenched, has a loyal user base, and has had 25 million lenses produced. Pentax also has the "stigma" of being at least 3 generations behind Canon and Nikon in a now mature FF DSLR market; Fuji is rapidly growing market share in a "new" mirrorless market, and could actually be the first to release a mirrorless FF ILC. In contrast, Pentax is trying to maintain market share in a traditional market and then gradually increase it. Ricoh also has to live with the history of how Pentax has handled (or, under Hoya, not handled) this situation. So, does all this mean that Pentax has to maintain their traditional approach of keeping key products like camera bodies a secret until less than 2 months before release? Or could they be more open like Fuji? Fuji looking into the posibility of a full frame mirrorless camera, some XF lenses will be compatible \| Photo Rumors

09-20-2012, 05:22 PM	#3
mee Veteran Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 7,403	What does the age of the original mount design matter? Last edited by mee; 09-20-2012 at 05:29 PM.

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09-20-2012, 05:14 PM	#2
Blue Moderator Site Supporter Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Florida Hill Country Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 17,377	Nikon's slr mount is 16 years older than the K-mount.

09-20-2012, 05:34 PM	#4
wanderography Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Hayward, California, USA Posts: 567	I look at it like this, buying a camera is not like buying a dvd player or tv, it's an investment... Would you invest in someone who keeps things from you till the last minute? Someone who does not keep promises? Or a business that keeps being sold and resold. You don't hint to your investors on your plans, you give them a roadmap andpiece of paper with pretty little colors to show where you are headed... If not they are not a company for professionals or anyone who's livelihood counts on photography, if so I feel bad for you. Fuji has gained customers because they are constantly promoting and promising and than following through with there promises in a very short time. Pentax does not even want to tell you where they are headed in the future, they just want to say "We want to be a top competitor in the DSLR Market", ya ok, you have a plan? You don't show a plan you don't invest, unless your a fan of games like russian roulette or believe you have a chance at the lottery, cause thats all it is with pentax, hanging around waiting for chance, rumors, rumors, rumors, and nothing else...

09-20-2012, 06:28 PM	#5
MSM Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Alabama Photos: Gallery Posts: 994	You have to respect what Fuji has done. I just wish Pentax would take a close look at Fuji's Marketing. It seems like Fuji is doing what Pentax should have done. Perhaps the Fuji exec. frequent the PF for ideas. LOL

09-20-2012, 06:32 PM	#6
MSM Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Alabama Photos: Gallery Posts: 994	I also thought it was interesting the discussion that most of the XF lenses would work on FF. They do seem to have a clear plan of attack. Though, in fairness, if Pentax had released these cameras many here at PF would only talk of all the quality control issues seen in the X10, X100.

09-20-2012, 06:35 PM	#7
DSims Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Southern California Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,236 Original Poster	Originally posted by mee What does the age of the original mount design matter? It's relevant in the context of not being a new market; It hardly matters whether it's 25 or 50 years old, though. I don't think Blue's making a big point here because he's ing at us. Originally posted by bmonki you give them a roadmap andpiece of paper with pretty little colors to show where you are headed... If not they are not a company for professionals or anyone who's livelihood counts on photography, if so I feel bad for you. I agree with your ideas about trust and secrecy, but Canon and Nikon don't tell us about their new models either; Pentax can just keep their secrets better because they're smaller.

09-20-2012, 07:34 PM	#8
Winder Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Tennessee Posts: 6,617	I had a 3 hour ride home today where I thought about nothing buy moving to a Nikon D800E. I really like the XP-1 and the new X-E1. If Fuji will release a FF version of the X-E1 I will buy it. Fuji is an innovative company with deep pockets and a strong R&D department. Fujinon glass is really, really good. They currently make all the Hassy MF glass and the Sony professional glass used for HD TV broadcasting. Coming out and saying that they are looking at producing a FF EVIL is a good move. A lot of people will wait to see what Fuji brings to market before making a decision. Sony seems to be the only other company headed in that direction and I think Fuji can deliver a better product.

09-20-2012, 07:36 PM	#9
Verglace Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 468	I agree with the above, Fuji is making all the right moves right now. Fuji hit the spot with x-pro 1 while Pentax completely missed it with the k-01. Pentax seems too scared to bring the fight to the big boys and is slowly leaking customers. Pentax is pursuing a self fulfilling prophecy right now. They don't want to release FF because they think they will not have a customer base for it. However, because they are not releasing an FF, all their existing customers who want an FF will switch, customers who like to think they will switch to FF in the future would not consider pentax, while they only keep the customers who are contempt with APS-C. So when they finally do release an FF camera, there will be hardly any left that want FF as most have already switched. The FF they release will have to be far superior to its current competition in order to lure people back in. The prime time to release an FF camera would have been at the start of this year because now that other manufacturers are coming out with "affordable" FF...

09-20-2012, 07:52 PM	#10
sjwaldron Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,235	I wouldn't say they did a great job on technical execution of things like AF (x100, x-pro) and manual focus on the X-Pro1, but Fuji certainly made visually appealing tools that have had a lot of interest. It goes to show with a product that has the right level of appeal, you don't need a current market to be successful.

09-20-2012, 07:58 PM	#11
Winder Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Tennessee Posts: 6,617	Originally posted by sjwaldron I wouldn't say they did a great job on technical execution of things like AF (x100, x-pro) and manual focus on the X-Pro1, but Fuji certainly made visually appealing tools that have had a lot of interest. It goes to show with a product that has the right level of appeal, you don't need a current market to be successful. The latest firmware for the XP-1 is said to double AF speed and write speed. It also improves MF. The firmware updates the lenses as well as the body. We will have to see if the user base agrees, but the first round of reviewers have been impressed with the improvements.

09-20-2012, 08:01 PM	#12
Winder Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Tennessee Posts: 6,617	Originally posted by Verglace I agree with the above, Fuji is making all the right moves right now. Fuji hit the spot with x-pro 1 while Pentax completely missed it with the k-01. Pentax seems too scared to bring the fight to the big boys and is slowly leaking customers. Pentax is pursuing a self fulfilling prophecy right now. They don't want to release FF because they think they will not have a customer base for it. However, because they are not releasing an FF, all their existing customers who want an FF will switch, customers who like to think they will switch to FF in the future would not consider pentax, while they only keep the customers who are contempt with APS-C. So when they finally do release an FF camera, there will be hardly any left that want FF as most have already switched. The FF they release will have to be far superior to its current competition in order to lure people back in. The prime time to release an FF camera would have been at the start of this year because now that other manufacturers are coming out with "affordable" FF... I don't think Pentax has had the resources to bring a fight to the big boys. I'm not sure they have them now, but they are definitely in a better position. The Pentax talent pool was gutted by Hoya. It may take a couple of years to rebuild that. I would hope that Ricoh's R&D department is assisting in developing certain technologies that the two companies can share. Ricoh has a good R&D and deep pockets.

09-20-2012, 08:08 PM	#13
Rupert Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Texas Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 25,123	I'm eying the X-E1, the preliminary review looks good for both AF and MF, and it's a fine looking camera in a small package. I have nothing but high praise for my little X10, it has served me wonderfully the past year, and Fuji innovation is contagious.......I hope Pentax will catch it! My K5 is wonderful, but I don't think Ricoh is staying in the game as well as some. They need something to rattle the market. Fuji roamed the Forums, listened to what they heard, and built the X100...the rest is history. It's still a good seller, and its price has held over time too. As for the "secretive" attitude of Pentax...they had better change that, it is part of what made Hoya so disliked and untrusted. Their base needs to be informed, or with all the options of today, they will go with somebody they think is listening. Regards!

09-20-2012, 08:12 PM	#14
sjwaldron Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,235	Originally posted by Verglace I agree with the above, Fuji is making all the right moves right now. Fuji hit the spot with x-pro 1 while Pentax completely missed it with the k-01. I wouldn't say they totally missed the mark with the K-01. It has the potential and is generally a decent camera from my experience with it (no discernible difference in results compared to the K-5), but they didn't invest enough into it and they only halfheartedly targeted the camera for video use where I think they should have gone all of the way. The design gimmick was a failure to many current Pentax users and other serious photographers/videographers. The biggest problem I have with Marc's design in practice is that it is form over function... Well, and the "stop light" buttons and other aspects are not needed and make the camera appear unprofessional. They had the right bones to make an amazing interchangeable lens video camera that takes great photos and can use millions of K-mount/M42 lenses. It was lacking important tweaks and features that would have made it the next cult enthusiast video camera. Many of the tweaks are in software, but there were some hardware aspects like an articulating screen that would have given the camera a true purpose. Had the camera cost an extra few hundred and had: - K-5 like design and function with dedicated buttons and potentially WR. - Improvements like peaking while video is being recorded, hdmi that outputs video/liveview/uncompressed video, mic levels shown while recording, high bit rate encoding option, video record button that isn't stuck in P mode, and others that target the video usage... - A viewfinder to appease people who wanted that. I think an optional EVF would have been a decent compromise. - Basic articulation of the screen, similar to their new X-5.

09-20-2012, 08:20 PM	#15
sjwaldron Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,235	Originally posted by Winder The latest firmware for the XP-1 is said to double AF speed and write speed. It also improves MF. The firmware updates the lenses as well as the body. We will have to see if the user base agrees, but the first round of reviewers have been impressed with the improvements. Thanks, I haven't really kept up on them lately. It's great to see that Fuji actually puts the time in to improving their existing products like that. It shows they have some pride in their work and want to please their new customer base.