Canon 70D breaks cover w/ Dual Pixel CMOS AF

deadwolfbones · 07-01-2013, 09:21 PM

Canon EOS 70D First Impressions Review - DigitalCameraInfo.com

This thing is seriously a breakthrough for video. For stills shooters it's just another minor spec bump, though—better to wait for the 7D Mk. II.

pingflood · 07-01-2013, 11:37 PM

Putting the 7D AF system in the XXD series is more than a "minor spec bump"!

mamethot · 07-02-2013, 05:28 AM

Originally posted by deadwolfbones

Canon EOS 70D First Impressions Review - DigitalCameraInfo.com

This thing is seriously a breakthrough for video. For stills shooters it's just another minor spec bump, though—better to wait for the 7D Mk. II.

JPT · 07-02-2013, 07:41 AM

Originally posted by deadwolfbones

This thing is seriously a breakthrough for video.

It will be a real breakthrough for mirrorless cameras too. Since Sony is expected to have this kind of capability in their next generation sensors, it looks to me like we are getting quite close to the tipping point where reflex designs don't make sense any more. On the other hand, Canon clearly didn't feel confident enough to pursue a fully mirrorless design with the 70D.

rawr · 07-02-2013, 07:58 AM

So what's the DxOMark score for the new sensor?

deadwolfbones · 07-02-2013, 08:35 AM

Doubt we'll know for a while. Canon's a couple months away from test units, or so they say.

deadwolfbones · 07-02-2013, 08:36 AM

Originally posted by JPT

It will be a real breakthrough for mirrorless cameras too. Since Sony is expected to have this kind of capability in their next generation sensors, it looks to me like we are getting quite close to the tipping point where reflex designs don't make sense any more. On the other hand, Canon clearly didn't feel confident enough to pursue a fully mirrorless design with the 70D.

They said the sensor-based PDAF is 30% faster than the old hybrid AF and far better for tracking, but it's still a ways off what the traditional viewfinder-based PDAF can do.

That's not surprising since it's still first-gen tech, though.

Winder · 07-02-2013, 02:50 PM

Originally posted by deadwolfbones

They said the sensor-based PDAF is 30% faster than the old hybrid AF and far better for tracking, but it's still a ways off what the traditional viewfinder-based PDAF can do.

That's not surprising since it's still first-gen tech, though.

Yeah, but it shows you how manufacturers will go about giving you the advantages of mirrorless and the AF speed of PDAF.

The EVF is still an issue.

falconeye · 07-02-2013, 04:55 PM

The 70D's sensor with dual capture is a turning point for the industry. IMHO.

It uses all the light from the sensor for AF. And additionally, it has added phase information it an use.

In order not to be mistaken, the dual capture sensor must still correlate two rather blurry images (the keft and right halves) and may even additionally apply contrast maximization to achieve perfect focus. So, it does not have the relative clear signal a conventional phase AF receives from its restricted angles. Nevertheless, I assume that future installations of this technology very significantly outperforms phase AF in terms of both speed and accuracy. Including tracking performance. Not yet the 7D as Canon never had brillant algorithms. But somebody soon enough.

And as soon as SLR tracking starts to look poor, will mirror-based technologies start to fade out. Which is why I said turning point.

pinholecam · 07-03-2013, 05:10 AM

So many diodes on the sensor, I wonder if it stays cool enough or some other hardware/software is used to keep the noise down.

falconeye · 07-04-2013, 09:52 AM - **1 Like**

I have published a blog article which summarizes my thoughts:

-> Falk Lumo: Comment: Why the new "Dual Pixel AF" will transform the photo industry

The article includes results of my research what may have happened behind the curtains. My current deduction: Canon sealed it all during 12 busy working days in 2010 ...

mamethot · 07-04-2013, 11:01 AM

Is that the same AF mechanism that Sony was going to use on its new 24mp sensor as well? Since it's patented by Canon I wouldn't think it is. Have you heard of what sony is planning?

Quote:

new generation of Sony sensors with much improved Phase Detection system.

Canon’s new 70D has Dual Pixel AF sensor. Challenges Sony next generation sensor. | sonyalpharumors

falconeye · 07-04-2013, 02:17 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by mamethot

Is that the same AF mechanism that Sony was going to use on its new 24mp sensor as well? Since it's patented by Canon I wouldn't think it is. Have you heard of what sony is planning?

I think nobody knows yet what Sony is going to do.

But two things seem pretty obvious to me:

1. Sony feels an urge to solve the sensor-plane AF problem (what Dual pixel AF does).

2. It took Canon 12 working days to turn the 2010 Fuji announcement into another patent. I don't think it could influence Sony in any way (except maybe meeting each other in the patent office lobby

). But it shows how obvious the idea must have appeared to every knowledgable engineer in the field, Sony included. Maybe, we should do some searches in the Japan Patent Office database. Any native speakers here?

Aegon · 07-04-2013, 04:36 PM

Good article Falk, especially tracking down the Fuji announcement and comparing the date to Canon's Japanese patent application.

I've attached a machine translation of the patent, for what it is worth. (apparently this site does not support uploading RTF files, so I made it a DOC).

Class A · 07-04-2013, 07:52 PM

Originally posted by falconeye

I have published a blog article which summarizes my thoughts:
..

Thanks for the article.

Typo "mast" -> "must".

I agree with you that this technology has the potential to become a game changer.

Currently I guess that the AF base equivalent of Canon's MPAF may not be that large because the photodiodes are probably not that discriminating in terms of angular sensitivity. However, this will probably be addressed when MPAF uses 16 photodiodes, or so, in place of one conventional sensel.

You are right that this new approach breathes new life into the mirrorless concept, but I'd still give conventional DSLRs quite some lifespan because I'm sceptical about the speed at which EVFs can be developed so that they can replace the experience of an OVF.

07-01-2013, 09:21 PM	#1
deadwolfbones Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: La Crescenta, CA Posts: 7,450	Canon 70D breaks cover w/ Dual Pixel CMOS AF Canon EOS 70D First Impressions Review - DigitalCameraInfo.com This thing is seriously a breakthrough for video. For stills shooters it's just another minor spec bump, though—better to wait for the 7D Mk. II.

07-04-2013, 09:52 AM - 1 Like	#11
falconeye Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Munich, Alps, Germany Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,871	Blog article I have published a blog article which summarizes my thoughts: -> Falk Lumo: Comment: Why the new "Dual Pixel AF" will transform the photo industry The article includes results of my research what may have happened behind the curtains. My current deduction: Canon sealed it all during 12 busy working days in 2010 ...

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Canon 120mp APS-H CMOS sensor !	jogiba	Canon, Nikon, Sony, and Other Camera Brands	16	08-22-2013 10:48 PM
Canon 70D leaked	RonakG	Canon, Nikon, Sony, and Other Camera Brands	7	06-29-2013 06:38 AM
PENTAX K-01 Digital Camera w/Dual Lenses $399.99	TropicalMonkey	Pentax Price Watch	9	05-21-2013 01:34 PM
For Sale - Sold: Black Kx Body w/ Dual 45 Split Focusing Screen (Near Mint)	joe.penn	Sold Items	2	02-19-2012 10:09 AM
AF tracking w/ Canon 7D video & stills	Samsungian	Canon, Nikon, Sony, and Other Camera Brands	33	01-14-2010 11:42 AM

07-01-2013, 11:37 PM	#2
pingflood Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Borås, Sweden Photos: Gallery Posts: 3,169	Putting the 7D AF system in the XXD series is more than a "minor spec bump"!

07-02-2013, 05:28 AM	#3
mamethot Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Greater Montreal Area Posts: 736	Originally posted by deadwolfbones Canon EOS 70D First Impressions Review - DigitalCameraInfo.com This thing is seriously a breakthrough for video. For stills shooters it's just another minor spec bump, though—better to wait for the 7D Mk. II.

07-02-2013, 07:41 AM	#4
JPT Pentaxian Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Tokyo Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,821	Originally posted by deadwolfbones This thing is seriously a breakthrough for video. It will be a real breakthrough for mirrorless cameras too. Since Sony is expected to have this kind of capability in their next generation sensors, it looks to me like we are getting quite close to the tipping point where reflex designs don't make sense any more. On the other hand, Canon clearly didn't feel confident enough to pursue a fully mirrorless design with the 70D.

07-02-2013, 07:58 AM	#5
rawr Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 11,913	So what's the DxOMark score for the new sensor?

07-02-2013, 08:35 AM	#6
deadwolfbones Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: La Crescenta, CA Posts: 7,450 Original Poster	Doubt we'll know for a while. Canon's a couple months away from test units, or so they say.

07-02-2013, 08:36 AM	#7
deadwolfbones Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: La Crescenta, CA Posts: 7,450 Original Poster	Originally posted by JPT It will be a real breakthrough for mirrorless cameras too. Since Sony is expected to have this kind of capability in their next generation sensors, it looks to me like we are getting quite close to the tipping point where reflex designs don't make sense any more. On the other hand, Canon clearly didn't feel confident enough to pursue a fully mirrorless design with the 70D. They said the sensor-based PDAF is 30% faster than the old hybrid AF and far better for tracking, but it's still a ways off what the traditional viewfinder-based PDAF can do. That's not surprising since it's still first-gen tech, though.

07-02-2013, 02:50 PM	#8
Winder Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Tennessee Posts: 6,617	Originally posted by deadwolfbones They said the sensor-based PDAF is 30% faster than the old hybrid AF and far better for tracking, but it's still a ways off what the traditional viewfinder-based PDAF can do. That's not surprising since it's still first-gen tech, though. Yeah, but it shows you how manufacturers will go about giving you the advantages of mirrorless and the AF speed of PDAF. The EVF is still an issue.

07-02-2013, 04:55 PM	#9
falconeye Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Munich, Alps, Germany Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,871	The 70D's sensor with dual capture is a turning point for the industry. IMHO. It uses all the light from the sensor for AF. And additionally, it has added phase information it an use. In order not to be mistaken, the dual capture sensor must still correlate two rather blurry images (the keft and right halves) and may even additionally apply contrast maximization to achieve perfect focus. So, it does not have the relative clear signal a conventional phase AF receives from its restricted angles. Nevertheless, I assume that future installations of this technology very significantly outperforms phase AF in terms of both speed and accuracy. Including tracking performance. Not yet the 7D as Canon never had brillant algorithms. But somebody soon enough. And as soon as SLR tracking starts to look poor, will mirror-based technologies start to fade out. Which is why I said turning point.

07-03-2013, 05:10 AM	#10
pinholecam Pentaxian Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: North Photos: Gallery Posts: 4,706	So many diodes on the sensor, I wonder if it stays cool enough or some other hardware/software is used to keep the noise down.

07-04-2013, 11:01 AM	#12
mamethot Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Greater Montreal Area Posts: 736	Is that the same AF mechanism that Sony was going to use on its new 24mp sensor as well? Since it's patented by Canon I wouldn't think it is. Have you heard of what sony is planning? Quote: new generation of Sony sensors with much improved Phase Detection system. Canon’s new 70D has Dual Pixel AF sensor. Challenges Sony next generation sensor. \| sonyalpharumors

07-04-2013, 02:17 PM - 1 Like	#13
falconeye Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Munich, Alps, Germany Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,871	Originally posted by mamethot Is that the same AF mechanism that Sony was going to use on its new 24mp sensor as well? Since it's patented by Canon I wouldn't think it is. Have you heard of what sony is planning? I think nobody knows yet what Sony is going to do. But two things seem pretty obvious to me: 1. Sony feels an urge to solve the sensor-plane AF problem (what Dual pixel AF does). 2. It took Canon 12 working days to turn the 2010 Fuji announcement into another patent. I don't think it could influence Sony in any way (except maybe meeting each other in the patent office lobby ). But it shows how obvious the idea must have appeared to every knowledgable engineer in the field, Sony included. Maybe, we should do some searches in the Japan Patent Office database. Any native speakers here?

07-04-2013, 07:52 PM	#15
Class A Pentaxian Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Wellington, New Zealand Posts: 11,251	Originally posted by falconeye I have published a blog article which summarizes my thoughts: .. Thanks for the article. Typo "mast" -> "must". I agree with you that this technology has the potential to become a game changer. Currently I guess that the AF base equivalent of Canon's MPAF may not be that large because the photodiodes are probably not that discriminating in terms of angular sensitivity. However, this will probably be addressed when MPAF uses 16 photodiodes, or so, in place of one conventional sensel. You are right that this new approach breathes new life into the mirrorless concept, but I'd still give conventional DSLRs quite some lifespan because I'm sceptical about the speed at which EVFs can be developed so that they can replace the experience of an OVF.