M/L where its at right now?

surfar · 05-22-2018, 04:34 PM

Heres some commentry from Hoges,throw another Raw Prawn on the barby?Is m4/3 Still a Viable Choice? | Sans Mirror | Thom Hogan

BearCreek · 05-22-2018, 08:52 PM

I saw that article too, but it didn't make me wonder about where mirrorless is now, it made me wonder where Pentax is now. For one thing, did you see any mention of Pentax in that article?

For those who haven't read it, the author presents a "squeeze" diagram showing how camera sales in general are being captured by smartphone sales, and how DSLR and compact camera sales are giving way to sales of smartphones (at the lower end) and mirrorless cameras. Then he proceeds to explain how the mirrorless market itself is about to be squeezed by the imminent entry of Canon and Nikon, postulating that the MFT format will face a struggle for market share,

Like all corporations, Pentax is its own worst enemy. If you have a great idea, be sure to walk away from it if it doesn't immediately make enormous profits. The K-01 was introduced in 2012 and discontinued in February 2013; the Sony A7 series was introduced in October 2013 and went on to make both history and boatloads of money. How's that working for you, Pentax?

I'm sure that there is a post somewhere on this forum explaining why Pentax was wise to make the decision to enter the mirrorless segment, and then leave. (For those of you who want to bring up the Q series, I'll just say that if I want a camera with a cell phone sensor, I'll buy a cell phone.) But here is what I know. I followed this forum for years, reading articles from members pleading for Pentax to release a K-02. The K-01 had an excellent sensor (from the K-5) and the ability to accept any legacy lens. (If you have been reading the articles about pending Canikon mirrorless efforts, you'll know that they are struggling with whether to design bodies that can accept legacy lenses or implement a whole new mount.) It couldn't have been that complicated to release incremental upgrades with the K-3 sensor, upgraded processing chips, all borrowed from the existing APS-C cameras, all in the same body. They could have even introduced a step-up model with an EVF sourced from Olympus or Panasonic. Pentax could have had a five year head start on Canon and Nikon, but they threw it away.

I have also seen complaints about the awkward styling and the size of the K-01. I just have to say, if you are one of those people who are still insisting that successful mirrorless cameras have to be small, PLEASE go to camerasize.com and compare the size of your APS-C Pentax body to a comparable MFT body, like the EM1 Mark II or the Lumix G9. My Lumix GX85 is almost the same size as a K-01, and the "too-large" K-01 could comfortably hide behind the G9 that is next on my purchase list.

I am not a Pentax critic, I am a Pentax fan. I have seven Pentax bodies and 20 or maybe more lenses. But I also have a Lumix and 4 lenses for that, and unless Pentax gets its act together, MFT has a far brighter future than Pentax. I love my Pentax system, but I am not investing in it anymore. Mirrorless is the future, and I hope Pentax joins it.

**clackers** · 05-22-2018, 09:45 PM

Originally posted by BearCreek

But I also have a Lumix and 4 lenses for that, and unless Pentax gets its act together, MFT has a far brighter future than Pentax.

Well, BearCreek, to go back to the original article, Hogen (who I think is basically worthless, but YMMV) believes MFT will end up like Pentax has always been - a niche thing, suiting its own particular owners.

mecrox · 05-23-2018, 12:42 AM

The name is Hogan, Thom Hogan. I have no idea whether he likes seafood.

He’s just pointing out that a squeeze is - or only may be - arriving on M43: smartphones from below, and larger-sensor mirrorless from above. That may mean the good times are over for Olympus and Panasonic, or there again it may not. The key to this, as the man said, is that no one really knows anything. What are Canon, Nikon and Sony really going to do and will it work anyway? We simply don’t know. Will Oly and Panny head for niches and do it well? We simply don’t know.

Behind this, imho, is whether full-frame sensors will end up replacing pretty well everything. The usual suspects would love that to happen, and they would love for us all to think it will happen. They have huge sums riding on it. Doesn’t sound much fun to me, lugging that stuff around. Throw another raw grenade on their barby and give up the mantra of bigger is better, bigger is high status. Probably that makes sense if you are a baboon arguing over who gets the banana, but they’re surely not any baboons out there, are there?

Last edited by mecrox; 05-23-2018 at 01:33 AM.

**clackers** · 05-23-2018, 03:45 AM

Originally posted by mecrox

Will Oly and Panny head for niches and do it well? We simply don’t know.

Hogan's being disingenuous ... even avoiding the original question he was asked, not wanting to offend.

I couldn't care less about the man's opinions, but if you read it, he thinks the consumer end m43 is a loss, high end priced too high, leaving only video as the niche for him (small sensors with low pixel counts can be read very quickly so you get good frame rates/ data flow).

surfar · 05-23-2018, 03:45 AM

Originally posted by mecrox

who gets the banana,

Is the banana a crop?

mecrox · 05-23-2018, 03:56 AM

Originally posted by surfar

Is the banana a crop?

They often have spectacular field curvature, I can say that.

surfar · 05-23-2018, 03:59 AM

Originally posted by clackers

the man's opinions

His blog has its followers,i just happened across it and thought parts were accurate and some was speculation.

Last week i saw some breakdown of images posted on Flikr,50% were phone shots.33% Dslr and M/L is doomed with 4%!But all that means is that another hosting site has different figures.

Drones,360s and action cams wont feel the pressure from the Smartphone cams,other cameras will get encroached but not surpassed for a while.Ten years is a long time in techworld,i wonder what 2028 will be like???

lytrytyr · 05-23-2018, 04:07 AM

Originally posted by BearCreek

For those of you who want to bring up the Q series, I'll just say that if I want a camera with a cell phone sensor, I'll buy a cell phone. But here is what I know.

Well, from your comment, it's certainly clear that you don't know the Q series.

**BigMackCam** · 05-23-2018, 04:12 AM

Originally posted by BearCreek

For those of you who want to bring up the Q series, I'll just say that if I want a camera with a cell phone sensor, I'll buy a cell phone. But here is what I know.

Originally posted by lytrytyr

Well, from your comment, it's certainly clear that you don't know the Q series.

I was just thinking the same thing... I've yet to come across a cellphone camera that can produce anything like the image qualiy and RAW processing range of the Q7 (even the original Q). Not that cellphone cameras aren't useful tools - they are, but they're entirely different instruments. Find me one that comes close to the IQ of a Q-series with the 01 and/or 06 telephoto lenses, and I'll get my wallet out ready.

surfar · 05-23-2018, 04:28 AM

Originally posted by BigMackCam

I was just thinking the same thing... I've yet to come across a cellphone camera that can produce anything like the image qualiy and RAW processing range of the Q7 (even the original Q). Not that cellphone cameras aren't useful tools - they are, but they're entirely different instruments. Find me one that comes close to the IQ of a Q-series with the 01 and/or 06 telephoto lenses, and I'll get my wallet out ready.

Nice for stills, video is a long long way behind.

**BigMackCam** · 05-23-2018, 04:30 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by surfar

Nice for stills, video is a long long way behind.

Video... what's that, again?

surfar · 05-23-2018, 04:53 AM

Well its what SmartPhones are used for lots!...ive just done a little one day event using M43 in daylight and a $$$ony smartphone after dark,the phone was quite good.Captured the sound really well,the vision was acceptable enough in 1080p.Next time i'll use the 4K.

Originally posted by BigMackCam

what's that,

Have a 3 day event starting tomorrow,same procedure but will bring out the K-1 and Bigma for the finals day.

**BigMackCam** · 05-23-2018, 05:04 AM

Originally posted by surfar

Well its what SmartPhones are used for lots!...ive just done a little one day event using M43 in daylight and a $$$ony smartphone after dark,the phone was quite good.Captured the sound really well,the vision was acceptable enough in 1080p.Next time i'll use the 4K.

Yeah, I'll admit, the video quality of some smartphones is pretty impressive

I just get a little weary of hearing how they produce better stills image quality than something like the Q series (I've even heard people claim some phones outperform DSLRs

). The same look can be achieved with any modern camera in post-processing by applying heavy-handed noise reduction, sharpening, tone curve, contrast, clarity and saturation... It's fine and can look impressive for images viewed at small sizes, without too much attention to fine detail... but enlarge or crop and it becomes blindingly obvious what the limitations are

surfar · 05-23-2018, 05:37 AM

Originally posted by BigMackCam

t enlarge or crop and it becomes blindingly obvious what the limitations are

Most definitely,and thats the thing...phn images arent enlarged or cropped very often.

Originally posted by BigMackCam

I've even heard people claim some phones outperform DSLRs

Thats why Optometrists are in buisness!

05-22-2018, 04:34 PM	#1
surfar Pentaxian Join Date: Jan 2015 Location: mid nth coast,nsw Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,142	M/L where its at right now? Heres some commentry from Hoges,throw another Raw Prawn on the barby?Is m4/3 Still a Viable Choice? \| Sans Mirror \| Thom Hogan

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05-22-2018, 08:52 PM	#2
BearCreek Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Morrison, Colorado Posts: 39	I saw that article too, but it didn't make me wonder about where mirrorless is now, it made me wonder where Pentax is now. For one thing, did you see any mention of Pentax in that article? For those who haven't read it, the author presents a "squeeze" diagram showing how camera sales in general are being captured by smartphone sales, and how DSLR and compact camera sales are giving way to sales of smartphones (at the lower end) and mirrorless cameras. Then he proceeds to explain how the mirrorless market itself is about to be squeezed by the imminent entry of Canon and Nikon, postulating that the MFT format will face a struggle for market share, Like all corporations, Pentax is its own worst enemy. If you have a great idea, be sure to walk away from it if it doesn't immediately make enormous profits. The K-01 was introduced in 2012 and discontinued in February 2013; the Sony A7 series was introduced in October 2013 and went on to make both history and boatloads of money. How's that working for you, Pentax? I'm sure that there is a post somewhere on this forum explaining why Pentax was wise to make the decision to enter the mirrorless segment, and then leave. (For those of you who want to bring up the Q series, I'll just say that if I want a camera with a cell phone sensor, I'll buy a cell phone.) But here is what I know. I followed this forum for years, reading articles from members pleading for Pentax to release a K-02. The K-01 had an excellent sensor (from the K-5) and the ability to accept any legacy lens. (If you have been reading the articles about pending Canikon mirrorless efforts, you'll know that they are struggling with whether to design bodies that can accept legacy lenses or implement a whole new mount.) It couldn't have been that complicated to release incremental upgrades with the K-3 sensor, upgraded processing chips, all borrowed from the existing APS-C cameras, all in the same body. They could have even introduced a step-up model with an EVF sourced from Olympus or Panasonic. Pentax could have had a five year head start on Canon and Nikon, but they threw it away. I have also seen complaints about the awkward styling and the size of the K-01. I just have to say, if you are one of those people who are still insisting that successful mirrorless cameras have to be small, PLEASE go to camerasize.com and compare the size of your APS-C Pentax body to a comparable MFT body, like the EM1 Mark II or the Lumix G9. My Lumix GX85 is almost the same size as a K-01, and the "too-large" K-01 could comfortably hide behind the G9 that is next on my purchase list. I am not a Pentax critic, I am a Pentax fan. I have seven Pentax bodies and 20 or maybe more lenses. But I also have a Lumix and 4 lenses for that, and unless Pentax gets its act together, MFT has a far brighter future than Pentax. I love my Pentax system, but I am not investing in it anymore. Mirrorless is the future, and I hope Pentax joins it.

05-22-2018, 09:45 PM	#3
clackers Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Melbourne Photos: Albums Posts: 16,397	Originally posted by BearCreek But I also have a Lumix and 4 lenses for that, and unless Pentax gets its act together, MFT has a far brighter future than Pentax. Well, BearCreek, to go back to the original article, Hogen (who I think is basically worthless, but YMMV) believes MFT will end up like Pentax has always been - a niche thing, suiting its own particular owners.

05-23-2018, 12:42 AM	#4
mecrox Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Oxford, UK Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,375	The name is Hogan, Thom Hogan. I have no idea whether he likes seafood. He’s just pointing out that a squeeze is - or only may be - arriving on M43: smartphones from below, and larger-sensor mirrorless from above. That may mean the good times are over for Olympus and Panasonic, or there again it may not. The key to this, as the man said, is that no one really knows anything. What are Canon, Nikon and Sony really going to do and will it work anyway? We simply don’t know. Will Oly and Panny head for niches and do it well? We simply don’t know. Behind this, imho, is whether full-frame sensors will end up replacing pretty well everything. The usual suspects would love that to happen, and they would love for us all to think it will happen. They have huge sums riding on it. Doesn’t sound much fun to me, lugging that stuff around. Throw another raw grenade on their barby and give up the mantra of bigger is better, bigger is high status. Probably that makes sense if you are a baboon arguing over who gets the banana, but they’re surely not any baboons out there, are there? Last edited by mecrox; 05-23-2018 at 01:33 AM.

05-23-2018, 03:45 AM	#5
clackers Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Melbourne Photos: Albums Posts: 16,397	Originally posted by mecrox Will Oly and Panny head for niches and do it well? We simply don’t know. Hogan's being disingenuous ... even avoiding the original question he was asked, not wanting to offend. I couldn't care less about the man's opinions, but if you read it, he thinks the consumer end m43 is a loss, high end priced too high, leaving only video as the niche for him (small sensors with low pixel counts can be read very quickly so you get good frame rates/ data flow).

05-23-2018, 03:45 AM	#6
surfar Pentaxian Join Date: Jan 2015 Location: mid nth coast,nsw Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,142 Original Poster	Originally posted by mecrox who gets the banana, Is the banana a crop?

05-23-2018, 03:56 AM	#7
mecrox Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Oxford, UK Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,375	Originally posted by surfar Is the banana a crop? They often have spectacular field curvature, I can say that.

05-23-2018, 03:59 AM	#8
surfar Pentaxian Join Date: Jan 2015 Location: mid nth coast,nsw Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,142 Original Poster	Originally posted by clackers the man's opinions His blog has its followers,i just happened across it and thought parts were accurate and some was speculation. Last week i saw some breakdown of images posted on Flikr,50% were phone shots.33% Dslr and M/L is doomed with 4%!But all that means is that another hosting site has different figures. Drones,360s and action cams wont feel the pressure from the Smartphone cams,other cameras will get encroached but not surpassed for a while.Ten years is a long time in techworld,i wonder what 2028 will be like???

05-23-2018, 04:07 AM	#9
lytrytyr Pentaxian Join Date: Nov 2011 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 4,310	Originally posted by BearCreek For those of you who want to bring up the Q series, I'll just say that if I want a camera with a cell phone sensor, I'll buy a cell phone. But here is what I know. Well, from your comment, it's certainly clear that you don't know the Q series.

05-23-2018, 04:12 AM	#10
BigMackCam Digitiser of Film Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: North East of England Posts: 20,681	Originally posted by BearCreek For those of you who want to bring up the Q series, I'll just say that if I want a camera with a cell phone sensor, I'll buy a cell phone. But here is what I know. Originally posted by lytrytyr Well, from your comment, it's certainly clear that you don't know the Q series. I was just thinking the same thing... I've yet to come across a cellphone camera that can produce anything like the image qualiy and RAW processing range of the Q7 (even the original Q). Not that cellphone cameras aren't useful tools - they are, but they're entirely different instruments. Find me one that comes close to the IQ of a Q-series with the 01 and/or 06 telephoto lenses, and I'll get my wallet out ready.

05-23-2018, 04:28 AM	#11
surfar Pentaxian Join Date: Jan 2015 Location: mid nth coast,nsw Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,142 Original Poster	Originally posted by BigMackCam I was just thinking the same thing... I've yet to come across a cellphone camera that can produce anything like the image qualiy and RAW processing range of the Q7 (even the original Q). Not that cellphone cameras aren't useful tools - they are, but they're entirely different instruments. Find me one that comes close to the IQ of a Q-series with the 01 and/or 06 telephoto lenses, and I'll get my wallet out ready. Nice for stills, video is a long long way behind.

05-23-2018, 04:30 AM - 1 Like	#12
BigMackCam Digitiser of Film Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: North East of England Posts: 20,681	Originally posted by surfar Nice for stills, video is a long long way behind. Video... what's that, again?

05-23-2018, 04:53 AM	#13
surfar Pentaxian Join Date: Jan 2015 Location: mid nth coast,nsw Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,142 Original Poster	Well its what SmartPhones are used for lots!...ive just done a little one day event using M43 in daylight and a $$$ony smartphone after dark,the phone was quite good.Captured the sound really well,the vision was acceptable enough in 1080p.Next time i'll use the 4K. Originally posted by BigMackCam what's that, Have a 3 day event starting tomorrow,same procedure but will bring out the K-1 and Bigma for the finals day.

05-23-2018, 05:04 AM	#14
BigMackCam Digitiser of Film Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: North East of England Posts: 20,681	Originally posted by surfar Well its what SmartPhones are used for lots!...ive just done a little one day event using M43 in daylight and a $$$ony smartphone after dark,the phone was quite good.Captured the sound really well,the vision was acceptable enough in 1080p.Next time i'll use the 4K. Yeah, I'll admit, the video quality of some smartphones is pretty impressive I just get a little weary of hearing how they produce better stills image quality than something like the Q series (I've even heard people claim some phones outperform DSLRs ). The same look can be achieved with any modern camera in post-processing by applying heavy-handed noise reduction, sharpening, tone curve, contrast, clarity and saturation... It's fine and can look impressive for images viewed at small sizes, without too much attention to fine detail... but enlarge or crop and it becomes blindingly obvious what the limitations are

05-23-2018, 05:37 AM	#15
surfar Pentaxian Join Date: Jan 2015 Location: mid nth coast,nsw Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,142 Original Poster	Originally posted by BigMackCam t enlarge or crop and it becomes blindingly obvious what the limitations are Most definitely,and thats the thing...phn images arent enlarged or cropped very often. Originally posted by BigMackCam I've even heard people claim some phones outperform DSLRs Thats why Optometrists are in buisness!