Is Sony’s Pace of Innovation Actually Hurting the Photo Industry?

**Serkevan** · 07-21-2019, 11:26 PM

Yes, as far as I know Pentax was the first with IBIS for a dslr. Canon and Nikon both had in-lens long before that, however.

Fogel70 · 07-21-2019, 11:56 PM

Originally posted by biz-engineer

Many customers get sold on anything Sony does or say. Customers also buy the idea that Sony innovate. Who was first with IBIS? Pentax.

Konica/Minolta was first with IBIS on a DSLR with Dynax 7D.

Quote:

Who was first with pixel shift? Pentax.

I believe Olympus was ahead of Pentax with pixel shift. And long before Olympus, Hasselblad had pixel shift.

Quote:

Who was first to offer a medium format crop DSLR? Pentax (Fuji and Hasselblad copied).

Hasselblad and Phase One (and possibly other) had MF crop sensor backs before Pentax produced 645D.

Quote:

Sony was for with eye-AF, so that's one innovation out of three. Why not write an article about Pentax being the top innovator in cameras?

Sony added bulb mode on the A7RIII via a firmware update. My K200D Pentax had bulb mode 13 years earlier. That's how Sony innovate , warfff.

**Serkevan** · 07-22-2019, 12:38 AM

Originally posted by Fogel70

Konica/Minolta was first with IBIS on a DSLR with Dynax 7D.

Huh, this is true.

Originally posted by Fogel70

I believe Olympus was ahead of Pentax with pixel shift.

Yep, by two months, roughly (between OM-D 5 ii and K-3 ii). Developed neck-to-neck most likely, Oly just pushed the camera out the door faster

Originally posted by Fogel70

And long before Olympus, Hasselblad had pixel shift.Hasselblad and Phase One (and possibly other) had MF crop sensor backs before Pentax produced 645D.

Not that long; less than a year before the Oly from what I can find. Do we count a digital back as "making a digital camera"? MF is weird.

Also, my brain keeps reading "MF" as either "manual focus" or "medium format" and manages to be wrong every single time. I assume this is an intentional flaw.

Fogel70 · 07-22-2019, 12:45 AM

I belive Hasselblad introduced the multishot feature in 2008.

**Serkevan** · 07-22-2019, 12:52 AM

Apparently some digital backs from the early 2000s already had a multishot feature, actually. Huh, today I learned...

biz-engineer · 07-22-2019, 12:52 AM

So IBIS and pixel shifts were before Pentax and before Sony. Sony gets credit for eye AF. What's hurting the camera industry isn't innovation, it is the incessant release of new camera models at more expensive prices, more and more people can't align the budget for an upgrade, the user base shrinks even faster. Introducing mirror-less and raft of new lenses by 4 companies is more than the customers base can finance. Some companies will have to take their losses, if not all of them.

Fogel70 · 07-22-2019, 01:36 AM

Originally posted by biz-engineer

So IBIS and pixel shifts were before Pentax and before Sony. Sony gets credit for eye AF. What's hurting the camera industry isn't innovation, it is the incessant release of new camera models at more expensive prices, more and more people can't align the budget for an upgrade, the user base shrinks even faster.

Why would that shrink the user base? How many do really need the latest model? Few users are getting the latest of everything as soon as they are released. That is why they have a premium price.
I do not see the prices are increasing. Sony A7 IV has the same introduction price as Sony A7 III.

When releasing new models it usually mean that price of older models are decreased faster making them more accessible for more users.

Quote:

Introducing mirror-less and raft of new lenses by 4 companies is more than the customers base can finance. Some companies will have to take their losses, if not all of them.

surfar · 07-22-2019, 02:23 AM

Originally posted by Fogel70

I do not see the prices are increasing. Sony A7 IV has the same introduction price as Sony A7 III.

That's what I see for $$$ony, but for Fuji the price has gone down for a superior camera.XT3

But for Canon, price has reduced a lot.....1299 for M/L 26mp 1999 for the 6Dii(that's a 700buck mirror).

Originally posted by biz-engineer

it is the incessant release of new camera models at more expensive prices

**Rondec** · 07-22-2019, 02:47 AM

Originally posted by surfar

That's what I see for $$$ony, but for Fuji the price has gone down for a superior camera.XT3

But for Canon, price has reduced a lot.....1299 for M/L 26mp 1999 for the 6Dii(that's a 700buck mirror).

What are you talking about? The 6D II is 1299 on B and H right now and the RP is exactly the same price, 1299. So no, there is no difference in price.

Overall, Sony does well, but I feel like their innovations are more on the sensor side of things than the ILC design side. They do seem to be pretty effective at copying other's innovations and tweaking them. They had Pentax's pixel shift (4 shots) but it couldn't be developed in camera, had to be processed in post. Now they are coming out with a 16 shot version -- maybe a little closer to Olympus's version. Regardless, I don't see that it is innovative. The only innovative thing about it is that they are doing it with a 61 megapixel sensor.

surfar · 07-22-2019, 02:56 AM

Originally posted by Rondec

What are you talking about? The 6D II

Launch price?

**Rondec** · 07-22-2019, 03:03 AM

Originally posted by surfar

Launch price?

Who cares about launch price? Overall the camera market has dropped considerably and that has pushed the price of both MILCs and DSLRs down. Currently the price is the same and is likely to remain the same. The mirror costs nothing extra at this point, although your post strongly implied that at current prices the mirrored camera cost 700 dollars more.

What is odd is not that Canon launched the 6D II at 1900 dollars (which is what entry level full frame cameras were selling for then), but that the market has tanked to the point that a couple of years later they had to launch a MILC with similar tech at a price significantly under that. Usually there is more of an early adopter tax.

surfar · 07-22-2019, 03:21 AM

Originally posted by Rondec

your post strongly implied that at current prices the mirrored camera cost 700 dollars more.

The launch price is the retail price, I relate to that.OLD tech decreases with time.(A7ii with kitlens for 998.)

I can buy a RP with the adapter for the equivalent of U$1100,right now...so that's 300 better value than the 6dii...but I didn't say anything like that...

Originally posted by Rondec

What is odd is

The market is adjusting, better tech for le$$.

JPT · 07-22-2019, 03:44 AM

Regarding pixel shift super resolution, the earliest I’m aware of is the RDC-7, brought to market by Ricoh in 2000. It used only two shots, but the basic idea is there and implemented way before anyone else.

Here’s the brochure:
http://www.ricoh-imaging.co.jp/english/r_dc/support/brochure/pdf/rdc7.pdf

biz-engineer · 07-22-2019, 03:59 AM

Originally posted by JPT

Regarding pixel shift super resolution, the earliest I’m aware of is the RDC-7, brought to market by Ricoh in 2000.

Thank for the reminder. I knew that I had read that somewhere, but couldn't recall exactly.

**Rondec** · 07-22-2019, 12:51 PM

Originally posted by surfar

The launch price is the retail price, I relate to that.OLD tech decreases with time.(A7ii with kitlens for 998.)

I can buy a RP with the adapter for the equivalent of U$1100,right now...so that's 300 better value than the 6dii...but I didn't say anything like that...

The market is adjusting, better tech for le$$.

I guess if you buy the 6D II you get the adapter free as well. In fact all of your EOS lenses work without messing with an adapter.

07-22-2019, 12:52 AM	#21
biz-engineer Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2015 Photos: Gallery Posts: 12,231	So IBIS and pixel shifts were before Pentax and before Sony. Sony gets credit for eye AF. What's hurting the camera industry isn't innovation, it is the incessant release of new camera models at more expensive prices, more and more people can't align the budget for an upgrade, the user base shrinks even faster. Introducing mirror-less and raft of new lenses by 4 companies is more than the customers base can finance. Some companies will have to take their losses, if not all of them. Last edited by biz-engineer; 07-22-2019 at 01:00 AM.

07-22-2019, 02:23 AM	#23
surfar Pentaxian Join Date: Jan 2015 Location: mid nth coast,nsw Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,141	Originally posted by Fogel70 I do not see the prices are increasing. Sony A7 IV has the same introduction price as Sony A7 III. That's what I see for $$$ony, but for Fuji the price has gone down for a superior camera.XT3 But for Canon, price has reduced a lot.....1299 for M/L 26mp 1999 for the 6Dii(that's a 700buck mirror). Originally posted by biz-engineer it is the incessant release of new camera models at more expensive prices Last edited by surfar; 07-22-2019 at 02:33 AM.

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07-21-2019, 11:26 PM	#16
Serkevan Site Supporter Join Date: May 2019 Photos: Albums Posts: 5,976	Yes, as far as I know Pentax was the first with IBIS for a dslr. Canon and Nikon both had in-lens long before that, however.

07-21-2019, 11:56 PM	#17
Fogel70 Pentaxian Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Photos: Albums Posts: 3,062	Originally posted by biz-engineer Many customers get sold on anything Sony does or say. Customers also buy the idea that Sony innovate. Who was first with IBIS? Pentax. Konica/Minolta was first with IBIS on a DSLR with Dynax 7D. Quote: Who was first with pixel shift? Pentax. I believe Olympus was ahead of Pentax with pixel shift. And long before Olympus, Hasselblad had pixel shift. Quote: Who was first to offer a medium format crop DSLR? Pentax (Fuji and Hasselblad copied). Hasselblad and Phase One (and possibly other) had MF crop sensor backs before Pentax produced 645D. Quote: Sony was for with eye-AF, so that's one innovation out of three. Why not write an article about Pentax being the top innovator in cameras? Sony added bulb mode on the A7RIII via a firmware update. My K200D Pentax had bulb mode 13 years earlier. That's how Sony innovate , warfff.

07-22-2019, 12:38 AM	#18
Serkevan Site Supporter Join Date: May 2019 Photos: Albums Posts: 5,976	Originally posted by Fogel70 Konica/Minolta was first with IBIS on a DSLR with Dynax 7D. Huh, this is true. Originally posted by Fogel70 I believe Olympus was ahead of Pentax with pixel shift. Yep, by two months, roughly (between OM-D 5 ii and K-3 ii). Developed neck-to-neck most likely, Oly just pushed the camera out the door faster Originally posted by Fogel70 And long before Olympus, Hasselblad had pixel shift.Hasselblad and Phase One (and possibly other) had MF crop sensor backs before Pentax produced 645D. Not that long; less than a year before the Oly from what I can find. Do we count a digital back as "making a digital camera"? MF is weird. Also, my brain keeps reading "MF" as either "manual focus" or "medium format" and manages to be wrong every single time. I assume this is an intentional flaw.

07-22-2019, 12:45 AM	#19
Fogel70 Pentaxian Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Photos: Albums Posts: 3,062	I belive Hasselblad introduced the multishot feature in 2008.

07-22-2019, 12:52 AM	#20
Serkevan Site Supporter Join Date: May 2019 Photos: Albums Posts: 5,976	Apparently some digital backs from the early 2000s already had a multishot feature, actually. Huh, today I learned...

07-22-2019, 01:36 AM	#22
Fogel70 Pentaxian Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Photos: Albums Posts: 3,062	Originally posted by biz-engineer So IBIS and pixel shifts were before Pentax and before Sony. Sony gets credit for eye AF. What's hurting the camera industry isn't innovation, it is the incessant release of new camera models at more expensive prices, more and more people can't align the budget for an upgrade, the user base shrinks even faster. Why would that shrink the user base? How many do really need the latest model? Few users are getting the latest of everything as soon as they are released. That is why they have a premium price. I do not see the prices are increasing. Sony A7 IV has the same introduction price as Sony A7 III. When releasing new models it usually mean that price of older models are decreased faster making them more accessible for more users. Quote: Introducing mirror-less and raft of new lenses by 4 companies is more than the customers base can finance. Some companies will have to take their losses, if not all of them.

07-22-2019, 02:47 AM	#24
Rondec Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Gladys, Virginia Photos: Gallery Posts: 27,652	Originally posted by surfar That's what I see for $$$ony, but for Fuji the price has gone down for a superior camera.XT3 But for Canon, price has reduced a lot.....1299 for M/L 26mp 1999 for the 6Dii(that's a 700buck mirror). What are you talking about? The 6D II is 1299 on B and H right now and the RP is exactly the same price, 1299. So no, there is no difference in price. Overall, Sony does well, but I feel like their innovations are more on the sensor side of things than the ILC design side. They do seem to be pretty effective at copying other's innovations and tweaking them. They had Pentax's pixel shift (4 shots) but it couldn't be developed in camera, had to be processed in post. Now they are coming out with a 16 shot version -- maybe a little closer to Olympus's version. Regardless, I don't see that it is innovative. The only innovative thing about it is that they are doing it with a 61 megapixel sensor.

07-22-2019, 02:56 AM	#25
surfar Pentaxian Join Date: Jan 2015 Location: mid nth coast,nsw Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,141	Originally posted by Rondec What are you talking about? The 6D II Launch price?

07-22-2019, 03:03 AM	#26
Rondec Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Gladys, Virginia Photos: Gallery Posts: 27,652	Originally posted by surfar Launch price? Who cares about launch price? Overall the camera market has dropped considerably and that has pushed the price of both MILCs and DSLRs down. Currently the price is the same and is likely to remain the same. The mirror costs nothing extra at this point, although your post strongly implied that at current prices the mirrored camera cost 700 dollars more. What is odd is not that Canon launched the 6D II at 1900 dollars (which is what entry level full frame cameras were selling for then), but that the market has tanked to the point that a couple of years later they had to launch a MILC with similar tech at a price significantly under that. Usually there is more of an early adopter tax.

07-22-2019, 03:21 AM	#27
surfar Pentaxian Join Date: Jan 2015 Location: mid nth coast,nsw Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,141	Originally posted by Rondec your post strongly implied that at current prices the mirrored camera cost 700 dollars more. The launch price is the retail price, I relate to that.OLD tech decreases with time.(A7ii with kitlens for 998.) I can buy a RP with the adapter for the equivalent of U$1100,right now...so that's 300 better value than the 6dii...but I didn't say anything like that... Originally posted by Rondec What is odd is The market is adjusting, better tech for le$$.

07-22-2019, 03:44 AM	#28
JPT Pentaxian Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Tokyo Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,821	Regarding pixel shift super resolution, the earliest I’m aware of is the RDC-7, brought to market by Ricoh in 2000. It used only two shots, but the basic idea is there and implemented way before anyone else. Here’s the brochure: http://www.ricoh-imaging.co.jp/english/r_dc/support/brochure/pdf/rdc7.pdf

07-22-2019, 03:59 AM	#29
biz-engineer Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2015 Photos: Gallery Posts: 12,231	Originally posted by JPT Regarding pixel shift super resolution, the earliest I’m aware of is the RDC-7, brought to market by Ricoh in 2000. Thank for the reminder. I knew that I had read that somewhere, but couldn't recall exactly.

07-22-2019, 12:51 PM	#30
Rondec Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Gladys, Virginia Photos: Gallery Posts: 27,652	Originally posted by surfar The launch price is the retail price, I relate to that.OLD tech decreases with time.(A7ii with kitlens for 998.) I can buy a RP with the adapter for the equivalent of U$1100,right now...so that's 300 better value than the 6dii...but I didn't say anything like that... The market is adjusting, better tech for le$$. I guess if you buy the 6D II you get the adapter free as well. In fact all of your EOS lenses work without messing with an adapter.