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02-14-2020, 02:28 AM   #16
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Except the resolution, which is supposed to be 45mp, this R5 looks pretty good on paper. And with the new RF lenses the files should look beautiful... But the resolution is killing me.

I'm curious about 2 things:

1. what kind of memory cards it will take; probably one of them will be CFexpress to handle the 8k video and the 12/20fps. I'm not sure that SD cards, even the UHS-2 ones, can handle the processing power needed
2. what improvements will have in terms of EVF over the R

02-14-2020, 04:32 AM   #17
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Since CP+ 2020 has been cancelled we’ll have to wait for these answers. But why is the resolution killing you? Too much? Too little? Can’t keep the new year resolution to avoid buying more gear??
02-14-2020, 06:44 AM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by StiffLegged Quote
Since CP+ 2020 has been cancelled we’ll have to wait for these answers. But why is the resolution killing you? Too much? Too little? Can’t keep the new year resolution to avoid buying more gear??
It's too much resolution that makes shooting a little more "difficult" due to demanding high resolution sensor. I don't print images larger than 20-30" and I'm neither a big fan of cropping a lot. And I don't want to upgrade again my computer either... it can handle 45mp files but not as I would like to.

At this moment I'm shooting with 5D Mark IV and EOS R. I will start this year the transition to mirrorless by replacing the DSLR lenses that start to show their age. I'm planning to keep my DSLR only for wildlife until I decide which mirrorless I'm going to buy next year. I usually wait about a year for a camera to be tested by others until I start to test it properly myself and buy it if it suits my needs at a lower cost than when it's being launched. Probably by next year black friday I will replace my 5D assuming that more than one mirrorless body will be released by Canon this year.
02-14-2020, 12:31 PM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote
I don't print images larger than 20-30" and I'm neither a big fan of cropping a lot.
It is commonly believed, and a marketing notion that pixel count equate print size, especially among the mass that doesn't print anymore. More pixels just show better lens imperfections. Want to print larger, use a camera with a larger sensor. I can see from the K1, the center square crop benefit from pixel density but not the edges in 3:2 aspect ratio. The convenience of digital rapidely made people forget about sensor size, even full frame is small. I have 20 years old paper photo development from Fuji 100 ASA rolls, they are as good as print from the K1, and better than prints from my K200D and K5. People adopted digital for its convenience, but it took until full frame 24Mp such as the 5D Mk II to catch up on 35mm film of the 1990s. In fact full frame is still small (at least for me) and apsc just works at low ISO. The so expensive MF digital only start to provide professional grade imagery, unfortunately customers don't put enough pressure on camera makers to develop larger sensors further.

02-14-2020, 12:45 PM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
It is commonly believed, and a marketing notion that pixel count equate print size, especially among the mass that doesn't print anymore. More pixels just show better lens imperfections. Want to print larger, use a camera with a larger sensor. I can see from the K1, the center square crop benefit from pixel density but not the edges in 3:2 aspect ratio. The convenience of digital rapidely made people forget about sensor size, even full frame is small. I have 20 years old paper photo development from Fuji 100 ASA rolls, they are as good as print from the K1, and better than prints from my K200D and K5. People adopted digital for its convenience, but it took until full frame 24Mp such as the 5D Mk II to catch up on 35mm film of the 1990s. In fact full frame is still small (at least for me) and apsc just works at low ISO. The so expensive MF digital only start to provide professional grade imagery, unfortunately customers don't put enough pressure on camera makers to develop larger sensors further.
I'm really not interested in printing large. I don't shoot fine art, products, landscapes and I don't sell prints. I shoot people lifestyle for microstock, corporate and portrait events where clients use the images on social media and websites. And I also shoot portraits and wildlife for my own pleasure. 30mp from both EOS R and 5D Mark IV are already plenty enough for what I shoot.

I wouldn't be worried about lens imperfections on a 45mp camera because I use great EF lenses and the RF lenses are even better. It's just that I really don't need the resolution. The only thing that a 45mp camera could "help" me would be the cleaner files when resizing from 45mp to 20mp (about one stop of noise). Fortunately for me, I don't care about noise either up to 12800 ISO.

Last edited by Dan Rentea; 02-14-2020 at 03:10 PM.
02-14-2020, 01:45 PM   #21
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A great feature thats not being discussed much.

This YT is worth watching.

Chelsea has fired her husband,banned him forever and has refreshed the channel!







02-14-2020, 03:04 PM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by surfar Quote
This YT is worth watching.

Chelsea has fired her husband,banned him forever and has refreshed the channel!







The BIGGEST part of the Canon R5 could change photography: Image.Canon - YouTube
I haven't heard a single word of her. That white beauty mounted on EOS R was a far more interesting "distraction". I do hope to see it available for rent so that I can take it for a week to play with.

02-15-2020, 01:07 AM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote
I'm really not interested in printing large. I don't shoot fine art, products, landscapes and I don't sell prints. I shoot people lifestyle for microstock, corporate and portrait events where clients use the images on social media and websites.
Yes, that's what most people do, that's how different is the digital imaging market compared to analog film, which explains the product ranges, rather small CMOS sensors and fast glass. Camera specs are now refined by 4K monitors , video and internet sharing, that is emphasis on speed, megapixels (digital zoom / center crop-ability, not for print enlargement) and video recording. The choice is limited for the small portion of photographers who are into the fine-art photography approach.
02-15-2020, 01:36 AM - 1 Like   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
Yes, that's what most people do, that's how different is the digital imaging market compared to analog film, which explains the product ranges, rather small CMOS sensors and fast glass. Camera specs are now refined by 4K monitors , video and internet sharing, that is emphasis on speed, megapixels (digital zoom / center crop-ability, not for print enlargement) and video recording. The choice is limited for the small portion of photographers who are into the fine-art photography approach.
The choice is limited for the ones into fine art photography? Until a few years ago you had to choose between 30.000$ and 50.000$ Hasselblad and Phase One cameras. Now you can get Fuji or 645z at a way lower price. Second hand market is even more appealing for medium format Fuji and Pentax. It's not a limited choice, it's a limited market because these days online marketing beats the printed fine art marketing. But if you're into fine art market you should be able to pay for medium format because high quality prints sell for big money. But you need to find clients first and you need a good strategy.
02-15-2020, 03:05 AM   #25
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Fuji GFX R for $3500.

The 50mm for $500.

Unheard of value for high end stills!
02-15-2020, 04:48 AM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by surfar Quote
This YT is worth watching.
You’re kidding. The thing isn’t even being shown as a prototype so no YT channel can tell us anything beyond the press release.
02-15-2020, 11:18 AM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote
The choice is limited for the ones into fine art photography?
Printing between 48 and 60 inches uncovers that the whole story that the market is completely disconnected from reality. People talk about megapixels as if it defines print size, since every one talk the same talk, the talk is assumed to be true, even for many camera users who never printed a single image. Even yourself fell into the trap. Camera markers adopt the same rethoric since digital cameras exist, the exact same message for the 5D was 12Mp (5D 12Mp, rather crappy for prints... not even 50% as good a developped photographs from a 24x36 film roll). The 5D 12Mpixel deliver totally crap images in comparison to a medium format film of the time, but Canon sold it 3 grands as a pro-camera when non pros were used the even more crappy 8Mpixels apsc cameras that didn't rival film except for speed of seeing the photo right after it's taken. Manufacturers now charge 150% more for the same full frame camera having a sensor with 42Mp (~5500 x 8000) instead of 24Mp (4000x6000), whereas the lens aberrations are exactly the same regarless of how many mega pixels are used. The most interesting is people still get excited by more megapixels of the same format and still buy the 42Mp FF camera even if they never ever print anything (assuming 42Mp would be significantly better for prints). All those Megapixels are never used, 37 out of 45Mpixels go down the bin for every photo taken that gets downsampled to 3480 or 1920 pixels wide so that it can be viewed on display or shared online. Then there are the "so much better" mirrorless lenses, for which I compare the resolution & CA tests to find out that those mirrorless lenses are maybe 10% better than DSLR lenses, what does mean 10% better lens when displayed over 2K or 4K, there is no way to see any difference. However when you print 48 inches wide, aberrations jump out of the print, that's the very first thing you see and it's ugly, while less pixels is much much less noticeable.

Last edited by biz-engineer; 02-15-2020 at 11:25 AM.
02-15-2020, 04:48 PM - 2 Likes   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
Printing between 48 and 60 inches uncovers that the whole story that the market is completely disconnected from reality. People talk about megapixels as if it defines print size, since every one talk the same talk, the talk is assumed to be true, even for many camera users who never printed a single image. Even yourself fell into the trap. Camera markers adopt the same rethoric since digital cameras exist, the exact same message for the 5D was 12Mp (5D 12Mp, rather crappy for prints... not even 50% as good a developped photographs from a 24x36 film roll). The 5D 12Mpixel deliver totally crap images in comparison to a medium format film of the time, but Canon sold it 3 grands as a pro-camera when non pros were used the even more crappy 8Mpixels apsc cameras that didn't rival film except for speed of seeing the photo right after it's taken. Manufacturers now charge 150% more for the same full frame camera having a sensor with 42Mp (~5500 x 8000) instead of 24Mp (4000x6000), whereas the lens aberrations are exactly the same regarless of how many mega pixels are used. The most interesting is people still get excited by more megapixels of the same format and still buy the 42Mp FF camera even if they never ever print anything (assuming 42Mp would be significantly better for prints). All those Megapixels are never used, 37 out of 45Mpixels go down the bin for every photo taken that gets downsampled to 3480 or 1920 pixels wide so that it can be viewed on display or shared online. Then there are the "so much better" mirrorless lenses, for which I compare the resolution & CA tests to find out that those mirrorless lenses are maybe 10% better than DSLR lenses, what does mean 10% better lens when displayed over 2K or 4K, there is no way to see any difference. However when you print 48 inches wide, aberrations jump out of the print, that's the very first thing you see and it's ugly, while less pixels is much much less noticeable.
When you're going to make a living from high quality prints taken with medium format cameras, then I will be all ears to these nice theories of yours about pro cameras and high quality prints. Until then, you better start to learn that market because my friend who has printers that costs more than two Pentax 645z cameras (Epson Sure Color P20000) and his clients are giving me way better advices than you regarding what are the costs of a business that involves high quality large prints. You keep telling us you don't have the budget for RF lenses or for Nikon Z system, but you give us advices about high quality prints... As I said, I have enough informations from guys who actually work with demanding clients and pro photographers. And I also pay 14$/month to learn new things, including things about high quality prints from a guy who charge 8000$+ for a shooting - Karl Taylor - who is a Hasselblad and Broncolor ambassador. Not to mention that you change your speech in a matter of hours based on the subject of the topic. I used to take your words seriously because some time ago you used to have quite nice and constant comments. Those days are gone and this daily change of speech is working against you, at least as far as I'm concerned.

Last edited by Dan Rentea; 02-15-2020 at 05:12 PM.
02-16-2020, 12:36 AM   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote
When you're going to make a living from high quality prints taken with medium format cameras
"When I'm going to make a living..." has nothing to do with actually image quality in print. I don't know what you are talking about, please make an effort to get out your shoes and look at the matter from an outside of "camera addicted" perspective, try to look at it from the perspective of someone outside of the camera head world.

For you to understand: I've been taking digital images to twenty years, and before that I had a Fuji film camera using 36 exposures rolls. For the decade I travelled professionally and on vacation trips, I didn't use my film camera, digital was so convenient that I stopped using my film camera, and I took digital images with compact cameras, then with the Pentax K200D, those 25 000+ images are great memories, some of them are unique. Unfortunately, I can't even print any good quality 16"x24" photos until the years I used the K5 and only when the image was capture at low ISO. This has nothing to do with professional use or not. Until now we go sold on small digital cameras that were said to be so great by marketers of Pentax, Canon, Nikon & Co. when your receive the poster print from the lab, it's a reality check, you really that 15 years of images are unusable for any enlargement other than postcard to A4 size.

---------- Post added 16-02-20 at 08:45 ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote
my friend who has printers that costs more than two Pentax 645z cameras (Epson Sure Color P20000)
Printer is not expensive. Canon Image Pro 4000 sells for $4500 and it can produce more impressive images than throwing $4500 in more camera gear. My point is, having bought a 645D ten years ago would have proved a better use of the money than going through 3 camera + lens upgrades that cost the same. The situation is that there is much more money to be made by selling cameras upgrades versus selling printers, so the marketing effort is onto cameras and lense. Look at DPReview, no a single printer review for the last 8 years, they don't evaluate print labs either, guess why... despite DPRev (and other sites) are supposed to deal with all aspects of photography, they only chose to review products where there is the most money to be made. That also is a reality check. Think again: on the one hand the internet, youtube, on the other hand the reality check of the life of photographs after they are taken. Reality check, lets get our head out of the marketing smoke!

---------- Post added 16-02-20 at 08:56 ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Dan Rentea Quote
from a guy who charge 8000$+ for a shooting - Karl Taylor - who is a Hasselblad and Broncolor ambassador.
Yes, he's use an MF system for charging 8K, while according to others he should be using the last model XYZ from ABC brand because it's new. Karl also sell workshops because the 8K shooting days might not be very often, so obviously workshops and sponsorships help smooth out the income.

---------- Post added 16-02-20 at 09:32 ----------

Karl says it all it that video:
1) He used full frame film
2) He used 5DIII (skipped micro43, apsc et. al)
3) He uses medium format
Just confirms what I said, better spend the money of larger format than spend the money into upgrading at every successive new model from the same brand.

Last edited by biz-engineer; 02-16-2020 at 01:03 AM.
02-17-2020, 04:05 AM   #30
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