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08-29-2021, 07:17 PM - 3 Likes   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by andy271 Quote
i did tests with pixel shift and the APO voits are sharper the focusing on the z7 is all so better than the k-1 i will never sell my k-1 but the z7 colours are amazing with these lenses
The EVF just makes it easier to manually focus. Mainly due to being able to zoom in through the viewfinder and also have the focus peaking in the viewfinder. Plus the view itself seems larger. It's a really pleasant experience. So all those things combined could be the reason for the sharper focusing.


On the autofocus side it's going to be sharper simply due to the way mirrorless cameras handle focusing. Similar to liveview on a DSLR (but much faster than Pentax liveview!). It's generally more accurate. And usually no need for micro-adjustments on the mirrorless. If you haven't dialed in your lenses on the K-1 that might be a reason for some of the sharpness differences.

Nikon colors are much different from Pentax. That's one thing I noticed when I first started using a Nikon body. That said, I think Nikon tends to saturate the yellow channel more than Pentax. But overall yes they are quite nice. And the many profiles that are embedded into a NEF really give a lot of creative options on this. At high ISO the K-1 has a bit of purple cast once you get into extreme levels. The Z7 doesn't. That said, Ricoh resolved this with the K-1 II. So maybe that's also another of the reasons?

Yet you're running into a buzzsaw of hardcore Pentaxians here. So you're not going to get many takers to agree with you, maybe beyond me. Because I've used both systems rather extensively (including owning a K-1). The Nikon Z system is just superior when it comes to focus accuracy and image sharpness. That 24-70mm f/4 is much much better than the Pentax 28-105mm ever wished it could be (yes I owned this too -- two copies actually). The Nikkor is sharper than even the Pentax 24-70mm f/2.8 stopped to f/4 in the center -- which is an impressive feat.

Those Pentax LTDs are very old designs which gives them "character". The S series Nikkors are perhaps more exacting and accurate. You must add the "character" in post, if you so desire.


That said, both are nice systems with different qualities. But man don't expect a lot of positives here for the Nikon. The people here love Pentax and hate Nikon! They'll deny it but proof is in the subtle word pudding!

08-29-2021, 07:50 PM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
That 24-70mm f/4 is much much better than the Pentax 28-105mm ever wished it could be (yes I owned this too -- two copies actually).
Comparing the MTF charts, it looks like the 24070 f4 Nikon is not better than the Pentax, contrast curves are pretty much super-imposed, same stuff I would say, from objective lab measurement. Let me wonder who is biased?

QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
The Nikon Z system is just superior when it comes to focus accuracy and image sharpness.
Z7 has a lot of false colors due to smaller microlenses that Nikon have implemented on the Z7 to increase micro-contrast. This also results in Nikon Z7 having to be set to ISO64 (due to smaller aperture of the micro-lenses) to match sensitivity of Pentax K1 at ISO100. An engineering trade-off: slightly better pixel sharpness traded for more moiré / false colors and lower ISO (shutter speeds slower by 1/3rd of a stop across whole ISO levels). Picture height of Z7 is 5500 pixels, Pentax K1 is 4910, that's roughly 10% more pixel on the Z7, that's a tiny bit more resolution for the Z7 (in objective, numerical terms), nothing to write home about. If I print 24" tall from a K1 file, I could print 26" tall from a Z7 file , assuming the lens outresolves the sensor). 24" vs 26" print, not going to be life changing.


QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
Yet you're running into a buzzsaw of hardcore Pentaxians here. So you're not going to get many takers to agree with you, maybe beyond me.
Well, there is a difference between objective lab measurements and complete fanboy talk.

---------- Post added 30-08-21 at 04:56 ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
The people here love Pentax and hate Nikon!
I love Nikon, I evaluate and compare to Pentax, but concluded that the small improvements compared to Pentax aren't worth the cost. And Pentax offers features that Nikon don't offer (GPS, astro-tracer and other things), that's not subjective bias, it's the truth. I think the big problem in your evaluation of Pentax vs Nikon Z is flawed because you switch to Nikon many years ago, so you compare the old Pentax gear with new Nikon gear. I wouldn't rely on your assessment which is very biased.

---------- Post added 30-08-21 at 05:18 ----------

The bottom line is, the Fuji GFX100 is much better than the Nikon Z7. The Phase One 150Mp resolves much more than the Nikon Z7.

Last edited by biz-engineer; 08-29-2021 at 08:29 PM.
08-29-2021, 09:47 PM - 1 Like   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
Z7 has a lot of false colors due to smaller microlenses that Nikon have implemented on the Z7 to increase micro-contrast. This also results in Nikon Z7 having to be set to ISO64
Has very little to do with why they are using a lower iso setting just like the D810 and the D850 they have chosen the your iso for increase exposure. If is was the case that the larger exposure was needed to over come the lower signal being received then we would not see an increase to the SNR as the both the D850 and the Z7 do indeed capture more light. Also if it was the case that the smaller mircolens did decrease the amount of light reaching the sensor to the extent you think there is I would see a difference in how bright the final image was between shooting the Z7 using the same exposure with the D800 without adjusting the iso setting for the Z7 down to iso64. The brightness of the final image between the D800 and the Z7 show no difference, we can even go further and look a the raw file and when they are compared they are both saturating the sensor under 1/3 of a stop difference.
08-29-2021, 10:58 PM - 3 Likes   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
The EVF just makes it easier to manually focus. Mainly due to being able to zoom in through the viewfinder and also have the focus peaking in the viewfinder. Plus the view itself seems larger. It's a really pleasant experience. So all those things combined could be the reason for the sharper focusing.


On the autofocus side it's going to be sharper simply due to the way mirrorless cameras handle focusing. Similar to liveview on a DSLR (but much faster than Pentax liveview!). It's generally more accurate. And usually no need for micro-adjustments on the mirrorless. If you haven't dialed in your lenses on the K-1 that might be a reason for some of the sharpness differences.
AF accuracy is a big benefit of mirrorless cameras, for sure - especially those beyond the very first generation models, since they usually benefit from PDAF sensors integrated into the imaging sensor (I'm not sure if Panasonic is using on-sensor PDAF yet?)... and being able to focus manually with absolute accuracy through the viewfinder - whether using focus peaking or magnification (personally, I prefer the latter) - is extremely useful and highly dependable.

QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
Nikon colors are much different from Pentax. That's one thing I noticed when I first started using a Nikon body. That said, I think Nikon tends to saturate the yellow channel more than Pentax. But overall yes they are quite nice. And the many profiles that are embedded into a NEF really give a lot of creative options on this. At high ISO the K-1 has a bit of purple cast once you get into extreme levels. The Z7 doesn't. That said, Ricoh resolved this with the K-1 II. So maybe that's also another of the reasons?
I can't speak from personal experience, but it sounds like Nikon has done a great job with profiles. Whether embedded, third-party or user-created, profiles are what give us the default colour rendering in raw development before we embark on our adjustments. That's why I've made such a big deal of profiling in response to the OP.

QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
Yet you're running into a buzzsaw of hardcore Pentaxians here. So you're not going to get many takers to agree with you, maybe beyond me.
QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
But man don't expect a lot of positives here for the Nikon. The people here love Pentax and hate Nikon! They'll deny it but proof is in the subtle word pudding!
So, if we challenge the OP's findings, we hate Nikon - and if we say we don't, we're lying? You don't leave "the people here" much scope for debate, do you, David?

I think eight members have responded in the thread thus far, one of whom is you, and four of the others haven't challenged the OP's claims. Of the remaining three (the "buzzsaw of hardcore Pentaxians", I presume ), @UncleVanya and I shoot multiple brands, both DSLR and mirrorless, and are generally positive about our various systems. Neither of us has criticised Nikon as a brand, the Z7 specifically, or the OP's choice of lenses (Voigtländer... what's not to like?), and we haven't claimed Pentax is in any way superior. We could hardly be labelled "hardcore Pentaxians"

I certainly don't hate - or even mildly dislike - Nikon or any other brand, and there's plenty I can criticise about Pentax (and every other brand / system). Whilst I personally enjoy shooting DSLRs more than mirrorless, I can - and do - happily shoot both for different applications and use cases. I even shoot Sony's old A-mount SLT platform, with my Hasselblad HV. Each has advantages and disadvantages; none is perfect in every respect.

It's clear from reviews and user opinions that the Nikon Z cameras - despite some criticisms (which every brand and model receives from some quarters) - are excellent, with some awesome OEM and third-party glass to choose from. I would be happy to own and shoot with them For that matter, I'd be happy to own and shoot pretty much any of the systems currently available from any of the well-known brands. At this point in the evolution of digital photography, all of them are, frankly, amazing. Which one is better than another, or best overall, depends on the individual photographer's use-cases, preferences, tolerances, likes, dislikes and budget.

I agree with your points on focus accuracy and manual focusing through the viewfinder. If those are critical requirements, and the photographer is happy to use an EVF (many clearly are, myself included), they're probably better served with a recent mirrorless system. On-sensor PDAF comes with its own compromises, of course; but they're perfectly acceptable, IMHO, if AF and MF accuracy are high priorities.

Colour reproduction remains entirely within the control of the photographer. Embedded and third-party profiles might provide nicer colours (depending on one's preferences) with one system or another "out of the box", but user profiling can replicate or replace these to produce whatever the photographer wants (including matching the output from other systems and profiles). That the OP likes the combination of his Voigtländer lenses and whichever profile (or JPEG style) he's using is a both a happy and convenient coincidence. The same colours can be reproduced from his other cameras and lenses through profiling


Last edited by BigMackCam; 08-30-2021 at 02:23 AM.
08-29-2021, 11:01 PM   #20
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And looking at the SNR graphs from DOX and working out how much light is being converted into signal between the D800 , D810, D850 , Z7 and Z7II they are all running within 4 % QE looking at what other people have calc'd
Photon to photo D850 44% Z7 46% and the Z7II 48% so we see even less than what I calc'd more or less the accuracy of what is being measured.
08-30-2021, 12:42 AM - 2 Likes   #21
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What takes the better/more evocative/exciting/thought provoking etc. photograph? A Nikon Z7, Pentax K-1 or the photographer? Just wondering ...
08-30-2021, 01:47 AM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
The people here love Pentax and hate Nikon!
I think what people tend to dislike is arrogant users, and Nikon used to have more than it's share - they've mostly deserted it now as it has fallen behind in the rankings.

08-30-2021, 02:28 AM - 1 Like   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
AF accuracy is a big benefit of mirrorless cameras, for sure - especially those beyond the very first generation models, since they usually benefit from PDAF sensors integrated into the imaging sensor (I'm not sure if Panasonic is using on-sensor PDAF yet?)... and being able to focus manually with absolute accuracy through the viewfinder - whether using focus peaking or magnification (personally, I prefer the latter) - is extremely useful and highly dependable.



I can't speak from personal experience, but it sounds like Nikon has done a great job with profiles. Whether embedded, third-party or user-created, profiles are what give us the default colour rendering in raw development before we embark on our adjustments. That's why I've made such a big deal of profiling in response to the OP.





So, if we challenge the OP's findings, we hate Nikon - and if we say we don't, we're lying? You don't leave "the people here" much scope for debate, do you, David?

I think eight members have responded in the thread thus far, one of whom is you, and four of the others haven't challenged the OP's claims. Of the remaining three (the "buzzsaw of hardcore Pentaxians", I presume ), @UncleVanya and I shoot multiple brands, both DSLR and mirrorless, and are generally positive about our various systems. Neither of us has criticised Nikon as a brand, the Z7 specifically, or the OP's choice of lenses (Voigtländer... what's not to like?), and we haven't claimed Pentax is in any way superior. We could hardly be labelled "hardcore Pentaxians"

I certainly don't hate - or even mildly dislike - Nikon or any other brand, and there's plenty I can criticise about Pentax (and every other brand / system). Whilst I personally enjoy shooting DSLRs more than mirrorless, I can - and do - happily shoot both for different applications and use cases. I even shoot Sony's old A-mount SLT platform, with my Hasselblad HV. Each has advantages and disadvantages; none is perfect in every respect.

It's clear from reviews and user opinions that the Nikon Z cameras - despite some criticisms (which every brand and model receives from some quarters) - are excellent, with some awesome OEM and third-party glass to choose from. I would be happy to own and shoot with them For that matter, I'd be happy to own and shoot pretty much any of the systems currently available from any of the well-known brands. At this point in the evolution of digital photography, all of them are, frankly, amazing. Which one is better than another, or best overall, depends on the individual photographer's use-cases, preferences, tolerances, likes, dislikes and budget.

I agree with your points on focus accuracy and manual focusing through the viewfinder. If those are critical requirements, and the photographer is happy to use an EVF (many clearly are, myself included), they're probably better served with a recent mirrorless system. On-sensor PDAF comes with its own compromises, of course; but they're perfectly acceptable, IMHO, if AF and MF accuracy are high priorities.

Colour reproduction remains entirely within the control of the photographer. Embedded and third-party profiles might provide nicer colours (depending on one's preferences) with one system or another "out of the box", but user profiling can replicate or replace these to produce whatever the photographer wants (including matching the output from other systems and profiles). That the OP likes the combination of his Voigtländer lenses and whichever profile (or JPEG style) he's using is a both a happy and convenient coincidence. The same colours can be reproduced from his other cameras and lenses through profiling
There are plenty of reasons to want an MILC -- one of them is if you are shooting a lot of manual focus lenses. The EVF has focusing aids that should help with that.

I think the question has more to do with post processing and if you can't get similar color profiles with Pentax cameras as you do with Nikon cameras. I agree, that it should be possible. Sony makes all of these sensors and the biggest "issue" probably has to do with the support that Adobe gives to Pentax versus Nikon. It probably takes more work to develop color profiles that match what you want, but as far as resolution and ability to get there, it really shouldn't be that different.
08-30-2021, 02:51 AM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
the biggest "issue" probably has to do with the support that Adobe gives to Pentax versus Nikon. It probably takes more work to develop color profiles that match what you want
Adobe, yes - but in all honesty I've never been especially keen on the OEM embedded profiles in my K-5, K-3 and K-3II either. They're pretty bland and not particularly accurate where HSL of blues and reds are concerned, IMHO. They're OK as a starting point, though, and it takes little effort to come up with a decent-looking preset for Lightroom (or other raw development tool of choice) that can be applied to images right at the point of import. It's a bit more work to create one or more custom profiles, especially if you're matching the results between two different camera + lens combos, but it only needs to be done once and is well worth the effort. Best of all, it costs nothing
08-30-2021, 03:23 AM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
That 24-70mm f/4 is much much better than the Pentax 28-105mm ever wished it could be (yes I owned this too -- two copies actually).
I am interested in the Z5 24-70 f4 kit as a possible second system in the future and have taken a good look at the 24-70. While it is a good lens, an independent assessment shows it has corner weakness and I doubt it is any better at all over the common focal range.


The Z5 has much to like about it and the Z20mm f1.8 is very impressive, if expensive but you get what you pay for and then the search is over.

I want to see what the D FA 21mm ltd is all about first.
08-30-2021, 03:24 AM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
Adobe, yes - but in all honesty I've never been especially keen on the OEM embedded profiles in my K-5, K-3 and K-3II either. They're pretty bland and not particularly accurate where HSL of blues and reds are concerned, IMHO. They're OK as a starting point, though, and it takes little effort to come up with a decent-looking preset for Lightroom (or other raw development tool of choice) that can be applied to images right at the point of import. It's a bit more work to create one or more custom profiles, especially if you're matching the results between two different camera + lens combos, but it only needs to be done once and is well worth the effort. Best of all, it costs nothing
Very much so. Personally, I feel as though it takes a little bit more work at the beginning, but once you create profiles you like, you can automatically apply them on import. I'm guessing that Adobe did a bit more work on the big player's profiles and so it is easier out of the box. Otherwise, I'm not sure how much two cameras, both with Sony sensors, should differ in terms of output.
08-30-2021, 03:38 AM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ian Stuart Forsyth Quote
Has very little to do with why they are using a lower iso setting just like the D810 and the D850 they have chosen the your iso for increase exposure. If is was the case that the larger exposure was needed to over come the lower signal being received then we would not see an increase to the SNR as the both the D850 and the Z7 do indeed capture more light.
It is the case that Nikon camera show the same SNR as Pentax K1 at higher ISO. Nikon needs 1/3 stop more light to produce the same SNR as Pentax. That's normal, Nikon use smaller microlenses so that the light signal sampling is closer to ideal sampling theory, so that the practical frequency response gets closer to rectangle from 0 to Nyquist, sampling windows in spacial domain getting closer to a Dirac delta function (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirac_delta_function , width = 0 and infinite energy). The advantage of Nikon narrow pixel aperture is that the contrast is increases at higher frequencies, which acts as if pixels are sharpened, and this boost lens LP/MM in lens tests. The downside of this technical choice is: lower actual ISO (more light is needed for same SNR) and more pronounced moirée patterns and false colors from signals beyond nyquist. The average photographer taking a picture of non-repetitive pattern will be impressed by superior sharpness of his images, but without comparison with another camera will be unable to realize that shutter speed was slower to collect more light, and will not see moirée patterns until one day shooting fabric. This has been demonstrated (here: https://www.strollswithmydog.com/nikon-z7-insane-sharpness/) , and false colors of the z7 are clearly visible in DPR studio tests images, z7 produces moirée like crazy on parts of the test charts that contains fabric much more than Pentax. Pentax could do the same, ISO50, tiny microlenses, more moiré. Canon even add a bit of OLPF to their high resolution camera to avoid false colors, it seems that Canon priority image fidelity over sharpness test charts, and it seems that Pentax understand that.

---------- Post added 30-08-21 at 13:18 ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by andy271 Quote
that is what i have done and the nikon colour is better i can clearly see it
All that said, I still think the Fuji GFX100s and Phase Ones give better image quality than Nikon. GFX100s cost the price as buying two full frame cameras, so if you bought two full frame cameras already, medium format isn't out of reach.

Last edited by biz-engineer; 08-30-2021 at 04:20 AM.
08-30-2021, 04:55 AM - 1 Like   #28
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There’s only one brand that I’m biased against: Canon. This is personal and not technical. It isn’t a rational thing it is emotional. I don’t tend to talk much about Canon except in factual terms if I can help it, because I know I’m irrationally biased against them. Nikon was actually my first love in cameras. I shot my Nikons for my formative years and still have my Nikkormat FT-3 and 50mm AI lens that I used in my youth. My black F2a is long gone, but I remember it fondly.

If I had to leave Pentax I’d be overwhelmed with choices from m43 to medium format. I’d honestly probably pick Sony over Nikon but that’s got more to do with the fact my dad has given me a Sony (a7Riii) and has one himself (my original one A7R2) and we have a few lenses. If I had no Sony gear Nikon might very well win the day.

I find today’s cameras to be insanely good. We are spoiled to be nitpicking over the small differences in out of the box color and features. HOWEVER, we are able to elect to focus on these minutia precisely because the cameras “today” are so good.
08-30-2021, 11:45 AM   #29
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i mainly use tripod and live view but a while ago i had a go at mf with old lenses Zeiss etc. on k-1 and if you look at my posts i was having all sorts of problems with focus in the end the camera went infor repair and now focuses very good but not as good as the z7


the EVF at first did hurt my eyes but my Sony a7r4 didn't so i wasn't sure what was the problem as i said i sold the z7 but got another one and tried MF focusing and it is superior to k-1 i love my k-1 but i am not using it much now as the z7 and voit lenses has just made me realise how good voit lenses are just look at Fred Miranda and you will see glowing reports


im spoilt in i haveing hasselblad 907x Pentax k-1 Nikon z7 had fugi gfx medium format but wasn't that impressed by it yes different look and all that but there wasn't the wow factor to me anyhow


as i said will never sell the k-1 or the Pentax lenses


the only way i can express how good the z7 is with the Sony e voits is ask you to hire the camera and the lens and you may agree with what i am saying


after a while oftrying the z7 EVF my eyes just adjusted to it and the view is much larger and clearer than my Sony a7r4 i had


the voit lenses have a rendering and colour saturation Ive not seen before and i have a Hugh lens collection as well as a large amount of cameras


another advantage of z7 is it has a 16.00mm distance between the flange and sensor of any camera that has been made so far


i only purchase the good quality adapters from novoflex German made and have had great results with yasica lenses minolta lenses the list is endless but the voit lenses have just got me and i don't get impressed that easily
08-30-2021, 12:19 PM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by andy271 Quote
im spoilt in i haveing hasselblad 907x Pentax k-1 Nikon z7 had fugi gfx medium format but wasn't that impressed by it yes different look and all that but there wasn't the wow factor to me anyhow
I think the wow factor has something to do with RAW -> JPEG processing. My smartphone does an excellent automatic jpeg conversion job, images really pop, even does automatic ND grad filtering to darken clouds, works amazing. I downloaded K1 files to my phone and processed images with it, and wow, that was impressive, well saturated, colorful vibrant images. I've also tried the green mode on my K1, and I found jpeg processing looks very good in that mode, there is some secret sauce in camera, I couldn't replicate the green mode processing by selecting jpeg styles manually.
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