[biz-engineer]

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I'm looking at a system that will hopefully be around for a number of years, to avoid getting a company that may switch to another non compatible system...which would leave the purchaser...down the road...with an orphan system.

You can't know in advance what system will survive. Dominant market share help with the likelihood of survival. The best way to get longevity for your camera system is to buy what you need and what you will need in the future, no less, no hoping for future product releases, roadmaps which are promises, but promises contain the risk that the roadmap never materialize. Buy what you need now and for the future , so that you can get the most value out of your camera system regardless what happens in the market place.

---------- Post added 28-01-23 at 07:34 ----------

I'm looking at recommending a system that is very good quality, and that would probably initially be ASP-C sized sensor, with a possibility of eventually going to a full framed sensor...

There's a problem doing so. What is you need for enlargement? If you don't need larger than APS-C format, why will you need full frame later? Focal length needed aren't the same for each format, it cost money to switch from APS-C to FF, like to switch from system to system. If you will need FF in the future, then skip the upgrade path and buy FF right away. Same for medium format, or any format, just buy what you need now and for the future, what's available now off the shelves, not making a decision based on some hypothetical cameras or lenses to be released in the future.

---------- Post added 28-01-23 at 07:44 ----------

The way camera companies drain your money is buy offering products one at a time, with prices set based on what looks like affordable for most of us. Customers buy one camera, then one lens, then another lens, and another lens, and another camera, and another lens, and while each individual spending looks like affordable at first sight, fragmented purchases lead to total amounts of money spent you wouldn't never ever have spent if the system was presented as a one shot purchase. So, buy what you need now and for the future, not just one camera and one lens now, and more lenses and more cameras in the future, as such approach (encouraged by camera brands) will lead to spend more money, that's a trap.

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Last edited by biz-engineer; 01-27-2023 at 11:45 PM.

[jcdoss]

I'm not sure why you're not recommending Pentax. A KF and 18-135 with 55-300PLM seems like a good option as has already been stated. If it must be a mirrorless, I'm partial to Nikon and have been thinking about a Z6 and 24-120 for my own purposes.

[3by2]

The specifics of which camera system people choose are so dependent on their own preferences that's it's always difficult to make a recommendation. I would not discount m43 gear, especially for wildlife work, a lot of people use it for birding as it's small, compact and weatherproof and is well served for excellent lenses at good prices. I think Olympus and Panasonic have a similar loyalty base to Pentax. I wouldn't worry too much about the M43 format either, in my view image quality below 30MP is similar across all sensor sizes and I've used FF, apsc and M43.

I would also include in your list the Panasonic S5 which is full frame on the L mount alliance, so is well served for lenses at good prices. Similarly the most well served for 3rd party lenses at good new and 2nd hand prices is Sony as they kept their system open to 3rd parties and not proprietary.


What I would recommend is that he tries out as many systems as possible, hire them if necessary or see if any are doing a trial or just find a camera shop who'll let him spend time with the camera. I've tried a few and some of my random observations include Canon having the most intuitive controls, Fuji Xt series to be the worst handling and most awful evf, Olympus to have the most dense menu system etc..... Any one of those things could be reversed for any other person and the reason they do or don't prefer a system. I chose M43 on the basis of size, weight and simplicity, one camera, two lenses, covering the FF equivalent of 12-300mm, all in a small bag but I knew what I wanted and why, you might need to question your relative a bit more about what he wants and why.

[allanmh]

I second the recommendation for the Canon R10 + 18-150mm lens; it seems a solid combo for someone just starting out. I especially like that the camera has the AF technology of the R3.


However, if this is a toe-in-the-water situation, why not a used DSLR? MPB/us has a Canon 70D and an 18-135mm STM for about us$300 each. This would allow your relative to get a feel for what they want to do photography-wise, and if he gets the bug, it is easy to upgrade to mirrorless and keep using his lens via the adapter.

Whatever the final choice, happy shooting.

[pepperberry farm]

I'm reading a lot of recommendations without experience of the cameras suggested...

If I was starting out from scratch, I honestly don't know if I'd buy a Pentax DSLR all over again (or any DSLR), mainly because you become locked into that lens mount....

I'm thinking in terms of adaptability, where a DSLR cannot touch any mirrorless mount....

For the way I work in my photography hobby, currently, it would have to be mirrorless - just to give me the option of future expansion...

I see the old crop vs full frame sensor debate still rages in peoples' prejudices - that honestly doesn't matter any more, hasn't mattered in a long time...

I read a blog a number of years ago, and the article was simply this: are there any 'bad' cameras any more?

all the current, or even last generation, cameras on the market today are exceptional, truly marvels of technology... are any of them producing substandard images?


if I had someone that was curious about getting into photography as a hobby, I'd show them what was working for me, show them photos of other photographers that are producing images today, with the current generation of camera/lens/software...

I'd try to explain that all the techno-babble hype is just that, just marketing to hook you into their systems with excessive claims of ISO/megapixels/eye & brain candy...

(or maybe I just haven't had enough coffee yet this morning)


(:

[Bob 256]

There's also the option of getting a used Pentax K-01. It has many admirers and is a great camera minus a couple of things (read on). It takes all of the Pentax line of lenses, and if one wants to graduate to a full SLR, Pentax cameras exist which will take those same lenses. One downside of the K-01 is that it is no longer in production and it's questionable if Pentax will enter the mirrorless market with another offering which takes their regular lenses. Other downsides include a dim viewing screen which can require shielding in bright sun, and a style that some people don't like (others love it). Lastly, it's APS-C sensor is 16 Megapixels which some might consider on the low side nowadays, but still takes great photos.The used version is widely available at this point in time and at an affordable price.

N.MINT PENTAX K-01 16.0MP Digital Camera Yellow Body Only from Japan | eBay

[pres589]

I bought a Fuji X-H1 about 9 months ago. It's been alright. Controls are okay, I don't use the dials on top as much as I thought I would. It's nice to adapt other lenses to; one of my favorites in my Pentax M 75-150, and various primes in the 20's from my Pentax collection. I also purchased a Tamron 17-70 f2.8 brand new. It seems like the Fuji zooms are usually not great performers and there's a lot of reliance on in-body corrections for them.


A used KP and 18-135 together seems like an $800 purchase from the bay right now. I'm seeing at least one KP + 16-85 for about the same money. That's a killer combination for the money. $350 for the 55-300 PLM, new.


But I don't know if either Fuji or Pentax has "the answer" right now for your question. I don't know that any company does.

[luftfluss]

It's been just about one year since my transition to MILC, and this is what I've gotten so far:

- Panasonic Lumix G9 + 12-60/3.5-5.6 bought new, $1150
- Sigma 56/1.4, used like new, $340
- Panasonic 20/1.7 ii, new open box, $225
- Panasonic Lumix GX85 2-lens kit (12-32 & 45-150) new open box, $410. Sold the 12-32 for $115.

Total so far: $2010

I've spent years photographing my local critters with manual focus telephoto lenses on my various Pentaxes. My enthusiasm and opportunity for "wildlife" photography has waned a bit since the start of the pandemic, so I've only done a small amount with my m4/3 kit. I suppose at some point I'll acquire a long m4/3 tele of some sort, but I'm in no hurry.

My next lens purchase will most likely be the Panasonic 7-14/4, around $300-400.

An indispensable part of my kit is the Raynox DCR-250 close-up adapter which, when attached to the end of my 12-60 lens @ 60mm, gives me images similar to Pentax APS-C with a macro lens attached.

[northcoastgreg]

I am currently using a Canon R10 mirrorless camera with an RF 100-400mm lens. The outfit cost $1500 from B&H. The system is quite capable for birds as it uses the focusing system from the higher level full frame systems. The R10 has a great color palette and can be set up to suit most wildlife or birding requirements. I like mirrorless because you see what you’re going to get in the viewfinder and I can compensate exposure in real time. The only complaint that I have about the camera is that the electronic shutter is loud. I also have a 50mm f1.8 RF lens and a 24-105mm zoom for other work.

Glad to hear this kit is working out for you, but however nice the R10 might be, it's still more expensive than a Rebel, not to mention all those excellent mid-range DSLRs on the used market. You can get a used Nikon D7100 for under $300 and a used Tamron 150-600 for under $750 And the R10, regardless of its merits as a solitary camera, is not something I would recommend to someone trying to get into general photography and building a system. It's just, not at the current time, a very good system camera. It lacks native lens support (and no, I don't consider the RF 24-105 a native zoom for an APS-C camera, even though it shares the same mount. For an APS-C camera, most photographers would want to be able to choose from several APS-C zooms).

[biz-engineer]

For mirrorless apsc , only Fuji has a complete lens offering.
Mirrorless choice is in full frame = Canikony.

[UncleVanya]

I'm reading a lot of recommendations without experience of the cameras suggested...

If I was starting out from scratch, I honestly don't know if I'd buy a Pentax DSLR all over again (or any DSLR), mainly because you become locked into that lens mount....

I'm thinking in terms of adaptability, where a DSLR cannot touch any mirrorless mount....

For the way I work in my photography hobby, currently, it would have to be mirrorless - just to give me the option of future expansion...

I see the old crop vs full frame sensor debate still rages in peoples' prejudices - that honestly doesn't matter any more, hasn't mattered in a long time...

I read a blog a number of years ago, and the article was simply this: are there any 'bad' cameras any more?

all the current, or even last generation, cameras on the market today are exceptional, truly marvels of technology... are any of them producing substandard images?


if I had someone that was curious about getting into photography as a hobby, I'd show them what was working for me, show them photos of other photographers that are producing images today, with the current generation of camera/lens/software...

I'd try to explain that all the techno-babble hype is just that, just marketing to hook you into their systems with excessive claims of ISO/megapixels/eye & brain candy...

(or maybe I just haven't had enough coffee yet this morning)


(:

So I can offer direct experience with multiple sensor and brands in mirrorless - just not Canon and Nikon and Fuji. Sony FF, Samsung APSC, Panasonic and Olympus m43 are areas of experience I have directly.

My thoughts on FF vs. APSC. IF the goal includes reuse of older manual focus lenses - then the sensor vs crop likely matters. It doesn't mean that one is better than the other - it means the lenses will be used differently on both and that is a consideration. Want to use old manual focus 35mm wide angle lenses? FF is the easier path. Want to use old Telephotos? APSC or M43 rule here by allowing denser sensors to take advantage of the faster lenses that are sharp and shorter than what would be useful on FF for that purpose. Want a fast normal? There are probably options in all camps for this one. Once you add AF modern lenses into the picture, I would say that if you are a budget shooter that likes primes m43 is the best answer but apsc isn't far behind. FF is for bigger wallets.

Several years ago a buddy asked me this same question. Without hesitation - after hearing what he wanted to do, his budget, and his carry weight (hiking) requirements - I recommended the Panasonic GX85 in a two lens kit (12-32 + 40-150) which was offered at the time for $600 (only when on sale). He grabbed one at the next sale! That same kit now sells for that price all the time and now includes some useful extras. My friend is a proud grandpapa who took to the camera like a fish to water. He routinely uses features I never bothered with like the ability to use 4K for stills and precapture and postcapture extra 8mp frames to find the perfect kid moment. Many years before this his daughter needed a film camera and he got her a Pentax K1000 and I gifted her my old M28/2.8 and M100/2.8 which she used to make great art. The point being that for different needs - different solutions.

Just like in engineering - building a bridge is easy but building one that "just meets requirements" is harder; recommending a camera is easy - flagships are one obvious answer - until you consider the needs of the audience and learn what they need and want. At that point, matching buyer to product is a lot more nuanced. Not only do you need to judge what they SAY they need, but also what they really NEED vs. WANT and where they are likely to go in the future with photography. WANTS are pretty powerful too - so they shouldn't be ignored entirely but discussed and considered factors as enjoyment is a large part of the hobby. If I had a dollar for every A1 with a slew of GM lenses recommended on a Sony forum to a guy who started by saying my budget is $1000 - including lenses... I'd be able to buy that A1 and then some.

Know your audience is good advice. I wouldn't try to talk someone into a Pentax DSLR who wasn't interested in A) DSLR's and B) Pentax. But if asked I am happy to explain what they offer vs. the competition.

[Kobayashi.K]

I recently did an inventory of the Nikon Z-series for a mirrorless camera, and I am very impressed with the Nikon ecosystem as a whole: the hardware, the software, user manuals, accessibility of the web sites, the web shops.

The logic and ease of use of the camera user interfaces, including the menus, is unprecedented and consistent among all their models, even going back to my Nikon 1 V2 and the film cameras F5 and F6 I have.

Nikon has two types of user manuals, the 'User's Manual' which is a relatively compact quick start, and a 'Reference Manual' which is a complete and detailed description of all the features. These manuals are an excellent introduction to the camera when you want to check for skeletons in the cupboard. The manuals are regularly updated with supplements or replaced by a new version depending on the camera and lens firmware updates.

Nikon has also an extensive range of high quality software, free downloadable from their web site without any hassle: NX Studio (comparable to Pentax DCU), Nikon Picture Control for editing and organizing Custom Controls, Nikon Transfer for transfer pictures to your computer, Nikon Wireless Transmitter Utility for transferring photos via WiFi, and a bunch of apps for your phone (Android, iPhone). All the software is top quality and regularly updated.

A subtle but striking habit of Nikon is to avoid feature creep on their camera's [1]. Only the features who are useful and necessary are present, but not more. They avoid an impenetrable forest of functions that makes so many camera's unpleasant to use (Pentax K3-III, Olympus EM1X). So this is a professional habit and a sign of a well organized development department that is able look beyond the details. What also helps is the well organized and straightforward menu structure in the camera's to find your way without the necessity to use all kinds of buttons with double functions.

All the Nikon web sites worldwide have a simple structure where you can go straight to the info you search, with each camera or lens having their own page with a general part and with technical specifications. This looks simple to implement, but is is amazing how some other brands produce a convoluted mess. This shows Nikon is a downright professional brand which is able to organize their stuff in a consistent and logical way among everything they do, no matter if it is a camera, the software or a web site.

These are a number of aspects that arise when you get acquainted with Nikon as a new customer, and I experienced it as a relief, being accustomed to Pentax.

If you want more info I can recommend the excellent web site from Thom Hogan, with reviews of all the Nikon Z camera's and lenses (and more), with also comparisons of features between the models, which makes it easier to choose. [2]. Another good source with more informal info is the 'Nikon Cafe' forum [3].


[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feature_creep

[2] Thom Hogan | Z-System user
https://www.zsystemuser.com/

[3] Nikon Cafe

[c.a.m]

I recently did an inventory of the Nikon Z-series for a mirrorless camera, and I am very impressed with the Nikon ecosystem as a whole: the hardware, the software, user manuals, accessibility of the web sites, the web shops.

I would agree generally with your assessment of Nikon's 'professional' standing. They seem to be well integrated, and their equipment is respected. Although I don't shoot with Nikon, I've referred to some of their reference material.

Would you have a recommendation for the OP in terms of a Nikon camera and lens(es) that would fit the ballpark budget of USD $1500-1750?

- Craig

[Kobayashi.K]

I would agree generally with your assessment of Nikon's 'professional' standing. They seem to be well integrated, and their equipment is respected. Although I don't shoot with Nikon, I've referred to some of their reference material.
Would you have a recommendation for the OP in terms of a Nikon camera and lens(es) that would fit the ballpark budget of USD $1500-1750?
- Craig

Well, that's easy. Go to the Nikon USA web site [1], select menu Cameras | Mirrorless and on the page that opens are all the mirrorless Z camera's: FX for full frame and DX for APSC, including the price. The OP can see for himself which camera's suits his budget.

[1] Nikon | Shop & Explore Cameras, Lenses, and Accessories

[morenjavi]

Near a year ago I started my transition to mirrorless system. The Nikon Z system was the most attractive to me at the moment.
In my case I got a FF camera.The Z6 II fit my budget. I think that the OP can find a FF Z in the 1500$-1750$ range. A Z6, maybe a lightly used Z6 II or Z7 I think can fit its budget.
Points that I appreciate in the Nikon Z (Z6 II and similar cameras):
- small size & weight for a FF camera
- very good FF sensor (I know, all modern cameras have terrific sensors today)
- quite good AF
- good ergonomics (can be improved. but it's good)
- price is lower compared to similar Sony and Canon cameras

About lenses, there are a lot of 3rd party brands that are making compatible Z lenses (Viltrox, Voightlander and others), and there are also good adapters for lenses of other brands, like Sony. So I think you'll have no problem finding lenses of different budgeds and qualities. I'm happy with the lenses I got: two cheap & small primes (Z 28mm & Z40mm) and two more expensive but better quality primes (Z 35mm & Z85mm). I didn't get zooms. On Nikon brand, you have 'affordable' f1.8 prime lenses (light and high quality), more expensive f1.2 ones, and some other 'cheap' primes (but very decent quality). Nikon makes several f/2.8 and f/4 zooms, so you have different budgets & sizes, but all excellent quality. But I think a lot of lens from Nikon and 3rd parties are still coming. As suggested, you can take a look at the Nikon website.

About flash, I have a Godox V1 for Nikon. You have a lot of options on Godox land and also there are 3rd party flashes compatible with Nikon. I think Nikon signed some agreement with Nissin and Profoto so maybe a new line of flashes is going to be developed, I have no idea when (just speculations).

Regards.