[opianstate]

I went to Best Buy and fondled a 50d and a D90 this afternoon, much to the dismay of the 4 salespeople who tried to help me (sell me) with the cameras, and they quickly pushed me onto the next salesperson when they realized that I was more familiar with each cameras' spec than they were. It also cracks me up that that place charges 20-25% more than any online vendor and somehow manages to be competitive.

Anyway - here's what I found: I hate the Canon UI. I just can't figure it out. Nothing makes sense, you can't get what settings you want quick enough, and its just confusing. Call me crazy, but I just had difficulty figuring out their logic behind button placement/use and menu options. However, I love the form factor of the camera. It's solid, has a good heft to it, and feels great in hand.

The Nikon has a much more intuitive user interface than the Canon IMO, and makes more sense to use. It seems like the menus are easier to navigate as well. Keep in mind I do have some experience with Nikon, but I've always thought that their UI was more manageable than Canon's. I also like the form factor of this camera, but it doesn't feel as pleasing in the hand - it's a little lighter and seems like it would get unbalanced with a heavier lens.

I'm still torn on what to do in this situation, and the user interface/Tokina options are really pushing me toward Nikon. Then again, I've grown fond of the Pentax as well, while not be as "pretty" UI-wise, it just makes more sense.

Still on the fence here. Have a ton of inquiries on my K20d body for sale too.

[Samsungian]

I've never read that Sune, that my Canon made teleconverters do not work with 40D & 50D and I'll guess earlier models too? The "II" designation on my second generation Canon TC's are "made for aps-c" as thats what the II designates. I'll bet its the original ones that don't work with crop cameras?

My 223 page Hardbound Canon Lensworks III from September 2003 included TC Versions "II" and not first versions. So these are alleast 6 years old now.

If it were me, I'd jump all over the Canon 7D. But I won't buy another crop camera even though 7D specs are spectacular. My money is better spent on lenses thesedays. Well maybe when 7D is ready to drop off the system in 12-18 months I'll get one of the last ones Maybe I'll get a 7D when I retire my K20D & head for the K Mount System exit?

Remember that the Eos 40D and 50D are crippled, so you loose auto-focus if you add a TC. (Others correct me, if the issue has been fixed).
And as I remember, the 40D is less sealed than the 50D.

Both the Nikon and Canons you're considering are good cams. You can't really go wrong, but you have to decide for yourself.
I understand that you've frustrated regarding DA* lenses that stop working.

I'm sure you can find some fun forums. Else I think this place also has a sub-area for other cam threads.




I believe the Tokina ones are without SDM and sealing.

Else just switch your 16-50/2.8, to the one of the other Pentax offerings, if you want to stay.

[Samsungian]

Instruction manuals are quite handy.

I find Eos Dslrs mindless to operate.

But I did read thru the manual a few times so its all good for me & the Wife reads instructions too.

I agree I don't know how BestBuy sells cameras. I just offer them a "we're just killing time" and they leave us alone. I figure security cam operator gives me a listen when I point out to the wife the exact B&H price on each item. $200-$300+ savings per item is significant.

I went to Best Buy and fondled a 50d and a D90 this afternoon, much to the dismay of the 4 salespeople who tried to help me (sell me) with the cameras, and they quickly pushed me onto the next salesperson when they realized that I was more familiar with each cameras' spec than they were. It also cracks me up that that place charges 20-25% more than any online vendor and somehow manages to be competitive.

Anyway - here's what I found: I hate the Canon UI. I just can't figure it out. Nothing makes sense, you can't get what settings you want quick enough, and its just confusing. Call me crazy, but I just had difficulty figuring out their logic behind button placement/use and menu options. However, I love the form factor of the camera. It's solid, has a good heft to it, and feels great in hand.

The Nikon has a much more intuitive user interface than the Canon IMO, and makes more sense to use. It seems like the menus are easier to navigate as well. Keep in mind I do have some experience with Nikon, but I've always thought that their UI was more manageable than Canon's. I also like the form factor of this camera, but it doesn't feel as pleasing in the hand - it's a little lighter and seems like it would get unbalanced with a heavier lens.

I'm still torn on what to do in this situation, and the user interface/Tokina options are really pushing me toward Nikon. Then again, I've grown fond of the Pentax as well, while not be as "pretty" UI-wise, it just makes more sense.

Still on the fence here. Have a ton of inquiries on my K20d body for sale too.

[Jonson PL]

I went to Best Buy and fondled a 50d and a D90 this afternoon, much to the dismay of the 4 salespeople who tried to help me (sell me) with the cameras, and they quickly pushed me onto the next salesperson when they realized that I was more familiar with each cameras' spec than they were. It also cracks me up that that place charges 20-25% more than any online vendor and somehow manages to be competitive.

Anyway - here's what I found: I hate the Canon UI. I just can't figure it out. Nothing makes sense, you can't get what settings you want quick enough, and its just confusing. Call me crazy, but I just had difficulty figuring out their logic behind button placement/use and menu options. However, I love the form factor of the camera. It's solid, has a good heft to it, and feels great in hand.

I think the Eos 7D should have better UI, more like the Pro 1'series line.

The Nikon has a much more intuitive user interface than the Canon IMO, and makes more sense to use. It seems like the menus are easier to navigate as well. Keep in mind I do have some experience with Nikon, but I've always thought that their UI was more manageable than Canon's. I also like the form factor of this camera, but it doesn't feel as pleasing in the hand - it's a little lighter and seems like it would get unbalanced with a heavier lens.

I'm still torn on what to do in this situation, and the user interface/Tokina options are really pushing me toward Nikon. Then again, I've grown fond of the Pentax as well, while not be as "pretty" UI-wise, it just makes more sense.

I've read of many Pro's; who turned Canon for FF, but who stand by the wording that Nikon are made by photographers, and Canon cams designed by engineers.

There are many who feel a need to try different brands for a period, simply to find out what they like the best.
Maybe you will feel like shooting Nikon for a period, and then find out if there are some things you miss with Pentax, and then consider if you wanna return.
You should use, what suits you the best

[er1kksen]

Remember that the Eos 40D and 50D are crippled, so you loose auto-focus if you add a TC. (Others correct me, if the issue has been fixed).
And as I remember, the 40D is less sealed than the 50D.

Not exactly: the 40D and 50D can use the TCs just fine, but if the resulting aperture is any slower than f8, their AF systems can't handle it and you're stuck with MF. The Pro series SLRs have AF systems that can handle F8 and slower.

The 50D is a little better sealed, but still nowhere near the sealing of the K20D or K-7.

[heatherslightbox]

Beyond that, you're probably better served with another brand. While I loved my 50-135* and never had a problem, the 16-50* is a thorn in the side, and the rest of the zooms are OK but not stellar. If you like shooting zooms, Canikon is a better choice *if* you spend the extra money on good glass.

When I recently switched I looked at the glass I wanted to shoot and went from there. While I shot almost all primes with Pentax, I found that a couple of L zooms from Canon gave similar results and I could go FF for easier wide shooting and narrower DOF (and better hi iso relative to the Pentax). So pick the glass and style you want to shoot, then decide. I frankly didn't like the Nikon lens offerings for my style. The 12-24 is legendary, but they don't have a good/reasonably priced IS longer lens, nor do they have a very good general purpose zoom. I'm finding the 24-105/4 IS and 70-200/4 IS to give me 95% of what I want - and that's saying something because I'm coming from ltd primes. The 70-200/4 is one of the best lenses I've seen...incredibly sharp.

Even if it weren't for the fact that Mom & Dad bought my 40D for me, I would've most likely gone with Canon for the lenses, as they had what I was looking for, which was good constant f4 lenses. I also have the 24-105/4 IS and the 70-200/4 IS and I love them both dearly. In a nod to my Pentax past, I picked up a Tokina 12-24/4, also an excellent lens. Yes, they are heavier than any of the Pentax glass I had, but they're otherwise working for me.

I will admit that the Pentax is more intuitive to use. Coming from the K20D to the 40D was a bit of a learning curve, but with use and consulting the Canon EOS 40D Digital Field Guide, I've managed to get pretty proficient with the 40D in the 2+ months I've had it.

Heather

[Samsungian]

400mm 5.6L plus 1.4x telconverter mounted on Canon 7D.

Autofocus function insight from new 7D owner


7D with 400mm f/5.6 + 1.4x Extender will auto focus in Live View mode: Canon EOS 7D / 50D - 10D Forum: Digital Photography Review

[Ratmagiclady]

Well, I think that 16-50 QC problem is pretty much a travesty, of all lenses, this was not where Pentax ought to have allowed QC problems to occur, whatever the cost.

...On the other hand, to be fair, buying them used makes it a lot more likely you're not gonna get a good one, cause the good ones are really nice, and ones with problems are the ones more likely to keep circulating the used market. (The Tokinas appear to be the same design, but you don't get the SMC coating or the weathersealing, or, as I'm told, the SDM. )

Doesn't seem we've been hearing so much about those QC problems for a while, though,and they don't cost over a thousand dollars. I haven't followed the issue closely cause it's not the focal length range I'm interested in, (I'm looking at a Tammie 28-75 for my zooming needs, and since lens prices in general have gone up, I'm just not in a huge hurry to spend four hundred on a zoom of any kind, anyway) Anyway, just for another view on that. It doesn't seem anyone else is having a tremendously-easy time making a top-flight lens that does that 16-50's job, either: more's the pity Pentax fell down over stupid stuff with theirs.

I think the reason I'm with Pentax is pretty simple. I could afford a body with full controls, good build, handling, VF, and weathersealing. Also. FA 50 1.4. The other brands make some nice stuff, but always seem to be holding out on the basics (things I need/take for granted as an old-school film shooter who never saw the need for a computerized camera all along) in order to sell things I can't afford.

If I had the more money, I might have made some different decisions, but I've found a lot to love about this Pentax stuff. Some don't want to wait to see what develops/gets sorted out, but I have the time, myself.

I'd suggest that the real concern is what's going to give you the photo experience you need. My biases tend to lie with what I get out of Pentax because I'd rather have the solidity and handling than higher performance in any particular area: I want control and accuracy far more than speed or blistering fps or anything. Just bearing that in mind.

Still, while I'd certainly be frustrated at the quest for a good copy of the 16-50, and I don't know what recourse you have about the used one you got, if that's really the thing you want, I'd consider trying to make it right. If I were in that market, I might look to get one from someone here I'd trust to vouch for a copy, or from a place that's good with returns.

[Ash]

Well I got my LN- 16-50 from KEH and am totally satisfied (so far).
I use it often.
It gives me brilliant results each time when used right.
I'd hazard to say that getting a copy this way from a reputable reseller would be reasonably 'safe' given the lens must work in order for KEH to sell it, and it has been 'tested' relatively extensively by the previous owner...

Getting a good, new 70-200 on the other hand has been troublesome...

[Jonson PL]

I've never read that Sune, that my Canon made teleconverters do not work with 40D & 50D and I'll guess earlier models too? The "II" designation on my second generation Canon TC's are "made for aps-c" as thats what the II designates. I'll bet its the original ones that don't work with crop cameras?

My 223 page Hardbound Canon Lensworks III from September 2003 included TC Versions "II" and not first versions. So these are alleast 6 years old now.

Good to hear.
I picked it up from Marc Langille's use of the Sigma 500/4.5 EX APO IF (HSM) DG on the Eos 40D. But maybe that just had to do with the Sigma TC, and the Canon ones would be better.

"5) Disable AF on the Sigma 1.4x APO TC - only the most expensive
bodies (MKII and MKIII) can AF this TC. Not very useful when shooting
wildlife if it's moving!

My understanding is that they did this intentionally: manual focus only with the Sigma 1.4x APO TC and anything below a MKII or MKIII. Someone please correct me if that is not the case."
Re: 35mmfilm_user: Pentax SLR Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review

I thought I had read other Canon users stating it as well, though. But good having it cleared out.

If it were me, I'd jump all over the Canon 7D. But I won't buy another crop camera even though 7D specs are spectacular. My money is better spent on lenses thesedays. Well maybe when 7D is ready to drop off the system in 12-18 months I'll get one of the last ones

It is for sure gonna be interesting to see how the Eos 7D holds up. For such a crammed sensor, I think FF would be better choice, but everybody will have to make up their own mind, in regard to their shooting style.
Gordon B.Good stated :
"Canon are starting to push their technology as far as colour noise goes and that is starting to affect the usability of an otherwise excellent sensor technology. It will be interesting to see how the Canon 7D gets compared and whether there have been any real improvements to colour noise that don't involve just noise reduction and detail smearing".
Re: True, Gordon.: Pentax SLR Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review

[philbaum]

Well, I think that 16-50 QC problem is pretty much a travesty, of all lenses, this was not where Pentax ought to have allowed QC problems to occur, whatever the cost.

...On the other hand, to be fair, buying them used makes it a lot more likely you're not gonna get a good one, cause the good ones are really nice, and ones with problems are the ones more likely to keep circulating the used market. (The Tokinas appear to be the same design, but you don't get the SMC coating or the weathersealing, or, as I'm told, the SDM. )

Doesn't seem we've been hearing so much about those QC problems for a while, though,and they don't cost over a thousand dollars. I haven't followed the issue closely cause it's not the focal length range I'm interested in, (I'm looking at a Tammie 28-75 for my zooming needs, and since lens prices in general have gone up, I'm just not in a huge hurry to spend four hundred on a zoom of any kind, anyway) Anyway, just for another view on that. It doesn't seem anyone else is having a tremendously-easy time making a top-flight lens that does that 16-50's job, either: more's the pity Pentax fell down over stupid stuff with theirs.

I think the reason I'm with Pentax is pretty simple. I could afford a body with full controls, good build, handling, VF, and weathersealing. Also. FA 50 1.4. The other brands make some nice stuff, but always seem to be holding out on the basics (things I need/take for granted as an old-school film shooter who never saw the need for a computerized camera all along) in order to sell things I can't afford.

If I had the more money, I might have made some different decisions, but I've found a lot to love about this Pentax stuff. Some don't want to wait to see what develops/gets sorted out, but I have the time, myself.

I'd suggest that the real concern is what's going to give you the photo experience you need. My biases tend to lie with what I get out of Pentax because I'd rather have the solidity and handling than higher performance in any particular area: I want control and accuracy far more than speed or blistering fps or anything. Just bearing that in mind.

Still, while I'd certainly be frustrated at the quest for a good copy of the 16-50, and I don't know what recourse you have about the used one you got, if that's really the thing you want, I'd consider trying to make it right. If I were in that market, I might look to get one from someone here I'd trust to vouch for a copy, or from a place that's good with returns.

I agree with ratmagiclady. I bought my Pentax stuff starting in 2007, and the lack of a sensor based SR convinced me (from looking at Nikon and Canon vibration stabilized lens prices) that i wanted a Pentax, Sony or Oly. Before i had an SLR, i was not happy with a Canon P&S I had - too much unnecessary crippling, laughable OVF and a LCD that was not viewable outside :-(

I've had nothing but good experiences with the Pentax mount lenses I've bought, including a SDM DA 300 and a DA 50-135. I did not buy the 16-50 because of the numerous complaints about it. I also have some primes, the FA50, A135, DA 35 macro and the DA-21 - all great lenses, and even some older primes. Frankly, i think I would not have had the money to sample these sorts of lenses if i had beein a Nikon or Canon shooter. As a result, i think i'm a farther ahead shooter because of Pentax lenses.

Perhaps i'm wrong, but i've read several posts suggesting that many camera manufacturers have had lens problems with one design or the other. Shifting lens manufacturing from one country to the other can't help either. I never want to be the first on the block to get a new product of any brand, let someone else sort out the problems :-)

[Samsungian]

Sigma has problems with Counterfeiting the Canon Eos Mount. Sigma do not license the Eos mount from Canon like Tamron does. There are many many older sigma lenses that only work on a canon film body. I only buy Canon made and Tamron for Eos mount.

No problems as of yet for me, but I only own full frames and a film camera. I likely won't ever buy a crop canon, unless the price gets ridiculously low or my desire to hit 8 frames per second while using Canon glass becomes a need. 7D specs are pretty sweet and images I see posted on net look rather nice. Still $1699, OUCH.

Canon doesn't cut their camera prices by half like Pentax does so I doubt 7D will ever drop below $1,000. $1,000 alot for me to pay for a crop camera at this point. Other needs, wants & desires.

I'll look at the two links, Thank You.

Now ,Coffee Time

Good to hear.
I picked it up from Marc Langille's use of the Sigma 500/4.5 EX APO IF (HSM) DG on the Eos 40D. But maybe that just had to do with the Sigma TC, and the Canon ones would be better.

"5) Disable AF on the Sigma 1.4x APO TC - only the most expensive
bodies (MKII and MKIII) can AF this TC. Not very useful when shooting
wildlife if it's moving!

My understanding is that they did this intentionally: manual focus only with the Sigma 1.4x APO TC and anything below a MKII or MKIII. Someone please correct me if that is not the case."
Re: 35mmfilm_user: Pentax SLR Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review

I thought I had read other Canon users stating it as well, though. But good having it cleared out.



It is for sure gonna be interesting to see how the Eos 7D holds up. For such a crammed sensor, I think FF would be better choice, but everybody will have to make up their own mind, in regard to their shooting style.
Gordon B.Good stated :
"Canon are starting to push their technology as far as colour noise goes and that is starting to affect the usability of an otherwise excellent sensor technology. It will be interesting to see how the Canon 7D gets compared and whether there have been any real improvements to colour noise that don't involve just noise reduction and detail smearing".
Re: True, Gordon.: Pentax SLR Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review

[pingflood]

400mm 5.6L plus 1.4x telconverter mounted on Canon 7D.

Autofocus function insight from new 7D owner


7D with 400mm f/5.6 + 1.4x Extender will auto focus in Live View mode: Canon EOS 7D / 50D - 10D Forum: Digital Photography Review

That's no great revelation. The 50D functions the same; using contrast detect AF it'll attempt to focus no matter how dark things get. It's so slow you're better of manual focusing though.

As to whoever said the 40D/50D was "crippled" because of the TC thing -- it'll only stop focusing if you end up with a combo slower than 5.6. A 400/4 with 1.4x will make a 560/5.6 and will autofocus fine. A 200/2.8 with a 2x converter will autofocus too. A 5.6 lens with 1.4x won't, unless you own a 1-series body which will AF to f/8 using the center point.

You can try to tape some pins or use a non-reporting teleconverter, but I can't say I have had good results with that. My 400/5.6 is amazingly fast but doing the "tape trick" with a 1.4x converter it hunts a bit before settling down -- not useful for my shooting.

Also, the 50D, 5D II and presumably 7D did away with the awful menu system of the older bodies. My 50D has a nice "My menu" feature where I can just add the things I want to a personalized menu. (Since I am a manual mode guy, my menu contains one item: Format)

[Douglas_of_Sweden]

A strange development:

I just discovered that in both Nikon and Canon mounts (easier found in Nikon, I believe) that Tokina offers a 16-50mm f/2.8 and 50-135mm f/2.8 that are basically identical in dimesions to the DA* lenses. Are the DA* lenses rebranded Tokinas? The price points on these lenses are great as well. If I could buy the DA* lenses without the SDM focus mechanism I would most likely do so.

Oh no, not now again! If I got a dollar every time someone speculates about what Pentax lenses that are Tokina design and the same thread then is quated as an evidence that this is the case, I could feed my LBA well.

The DA*16-50, DA*50-135, DFA100 macro, DA35ltd macro and DA10-17 fisheye are all Pentax designs that they have sold to Tokina. Tokina make their own versions with own coating and no SDM or weather sealing and in some cases more plastic. Somehow Pentax makes money on this, and Tokina is not allowed to sell these lenses with K mount.

The DA12-24 is Tokina design that Pentax is allowed to use. They build their own version with their own coating. Probably Tokina makes money on this in the same way.

If you doubt this, you can google for the patents and find out what Pentax designed and not.

This sort of things are very common throughout the entire history of lens making (and camera making). Not the first time Pentax sell their designs or buy someone elses design. And they all do it!

Some people have been upset that they cannot buy the Tokina versions in K mount...but that's really unrealistic crazy expectations. Would Pentax/Hoya allow someone else to compete with sheaper versions of their own lenses? That would truly be the end of Pentax.

[opianstate]

anyone know if there's an equivalent of the "Green Button" for Nikon or Canon users? I find this extremely helpful in almost all situations.