The Emperor's New Clothes - Canon 7D FAIL

superfuzzy · 11-13-2009, 09:07 AM

The Canon EOS 7D Review Darwin Wiggett

Seems like an objective and possibly accurate comparison - 7D vs. other Canon and Nikon DSLR's and a p&s.

I believe that if the k20d/k7 was thrown in it would also outperform the 7d! So the 7d is the perfect aps-c, except for one thing - IQ!

Source, a thread on a different forum:
Re: Solutions for all 7D AF problems:: Canon EOS 7D / 50D - 10D Forum: Digital Photography Review

SuperAkuma · 11-13-2009, 10:43 AM

Originally posted by superfuzzy

The Canon EOS 7D Review Darwin Wiggett

Seems like an objective and possibly accurate comparison - 7D vs. other Canon and Nikon DSLR's and a p&s.

I believe that if the k20d/k7 was thrown in it would also outperform the 7d! So the 7d is the perfect aps-c, except for one thing - IQ!

Source, a thread on a different forum:
Re: Solutions for all 7D AF problems:: Canon EOS 7D / 50D - 10D Forum: Digital Photography Review

That is not the same results as dpreview, I wonder what went wrong?

RBellavance · 11-13-2009, 11:06 AM

People using APS-C sensor, especially an 18MP one, at f/13 and f/16 to check sharpness probably don't know what they are doing...

The 7D has the highest pixel density off all the cameras they tested, and is therefore more affected by diffraction at an equal aperture. I would definitely expect it to be softer.

superfuzzy · 11-13-2009, 12:29 PM

Originally posted by RBellavance

People using APS-C sensor, especially an 18MP one, at f/13 and f/16 to check sharpness probably don't know what they are doing...

The 7D has the highest pixel density off all the cameras they tested, and is therefore more affected by diffraction at an equal aperture. I would definitely expect it to be softer.

The results could be due to diffraction, or maybe not. If diffraction is the culprit, 7d users should be aware of the focal length where diffraction is significant.

This was one series of tests, and interesting reading. As far as validity goes, who knows

Diffraction Limited Photography: Pixel Size, Aperture and Airy Disks

pingflood · 11-13-2009, 01:06 PM

Let's step back and think for a minute here.

Are all the 7D users just gullible morons who don't understand it's no better than a cheap Rebel, and Canon just screwed up and made their top of the line APS-C camera underperform massively

OR

could this guy's testing be flawed?

Hmmmm... what's more likely?

Here's another test, since you like those:
Canon EOS 7D Master thread - FM Forums

Also, wasn't this the "no brand wars" forum? You're clearly trolling, being all excited about finding the 7D to have "problems".

nostatic · 11-13-2009, 01:38 PM

I'm convinced that probably 90+% of "problems" are user error or a variable that the user is not accounting for.

I also have no doubt that there are some niggles with the 7D. Every camera has them. But I also have no doubt that there are plenty of users who will create stunning images with the camera. From all accounts the new AF system is just that - a *new* AF system, and one needs to learn the system to take full advantage. Too many people (myself included) get a new tool and don't bother to learn how to use it, and instead try to use their previous skill set or approach.

If the 7D doesn't do it for you, then don't buy it. No one is holding a gun to your head. And the author of the blog should be happy that a G11 does what he needs. I find it hard to believe that a G11 file will stand up to a properly shot and developed 7D file. But if he's pointing and shooting, then maybe the G11 is the right tool...

Alfisti · 11-13-2009, 02:03 PM

I subscribe to the theory that a DSLR is littered with problems unless ALL the stars align. The lens has to mate PERFECTLY to the camera, the focus needs to be BANG ON accurate etc etc etc.

I still find my 20D in lowish light is mushier than the K100D even at base iSO ... it's mystifying.

LeDave · 11-13-2009, 07:29 PM

Ouch, now I guess the D300 can revert back to it's 1800 price-tag again. J/k

Miserere · 11-14-2009, 06:22 AM

Originally posted by RBellavance

People using APS-C sensor, especially an 18MP one, at f/13 and f/16 to check sharpness probably don't know what they are doing...

Ditto. And it doesn't really matter that much if you have an 18MP or 10MP sensor. I only go beyond f/11 on my K10D if I really, really need the DoF. If these people are going to check for sharpness, they should look at their lens's MTF charts and use its optimal aperture.

I've been very impressed by the Canon 7D, and all the pics I've seen taken by people who know what they're doing looked great. High ISO performance is outstanding for an APS-C camera.

*isteve · 11-14-2009, 12:45 PM

Originally posted by superfuzzy

The Canon EOS 7D Review Darwin Wiggett

Seems like an objective and possibly accurate comparison - 7D vs. other Canon and Nikon DSLR's and a p&s.

I believe that if the k20d/k7 was thrown in it would also outperform the 7d! So the 7d is the perfect aps-c, except for one thing - IQ!

Source, a thread on a different forum:
Re: Solutions for all 7D AF problems:: Canon EOS 7D / 50D - 10D Forum: Digital Photography Review

Interesting review here, which seems to contradict it slightly but does point out quite a few usability flaws. Does not mention that you cant change focus screens either.

British Journal of Photography - Magnificent 7?

I have a friend who did just return one because of focus issues with his 500 F4, and no he is not an idiot and yes he did read the manual and he uses a 1Dmk2 as his main camera. He wanted the 7D as a backup and portable alternative but he's not going to bother now.

KungPOW · 11-14-2009, 01:17 PM

That review also states the 7D has 77 body seals. I don't think this is right. I think they have this mixed up with the K-7.

Jonson PL · 11-14-2009, 03:26 PM

Interesting read, thanks

dylansalt · 11-15-2009, 10:28 AM

http://rolandlim.smugmug.com/photos/704777875_Rjkbj-O.jpg

Unedited jpeg shot at ISO 1600

I put this through my standard pp workflow and I reckon the 7D is quite impressive.

Dyls

superfuzzy · 11-15-2009, 11:15 AM

There's another thread on a different forum - Lets settle the 'Darwin Wiggett' debate! :-): Canon EOS 7D / 50D - 10D Forum: Digital Photography Review

"Those of you who are accusing Darwin of not knowing what he's doing are making fools of yourselves and are an embarrassment to Canon users who want to see the truth. Darwin wasn't out to prove the 7D is perfect, he was just showing how it performs in certain situations with certain settings. "

and

"Which only proves Darwin's point. Have you actually read his review? He didn't say the 7D is a terrible camera. He said it doesn't work for him for the type of photography he does and the settings he needs for that type of photography. "

There also seems to be QA problems with the AF. It may be .00001% of the cameras or 5% - who knows? After reading most of this stuff I conclude that the Canon 7D is a VERY complicated piece of electronics, and with that many megapixels squeezed into the small 1.6 crop sensor the sweet spot is smaller than for other aps-c DLSR's. Much of the problems may be due to user error - folks not reading the user guide on AF, or not calibrating each lens to their 7d body.

Bottom line, the pasture on the other side is not always greener!

Samsungian · 11-15-2009, 01:14 PM

Here's a 7D poll with some replies at fredmiranda

Some people do love 7D. Nice thing with canon is there are many diferrent cameras to choose from, many different lenses to choose from to fit one's specific needs:

7D - Love or Hate - FM Forums

11-13-2009, 09:07 AM	#1
superfuzzy Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: NJ, USA (close to NYC) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 278	The Emperor's New Clothes - Canon 7D FAIL The Canon EOS 7D Review Darwin Wiggett Seems like an objective and possibly accurate comparison - 7D vs. other Canon and Nikon DSLR's and a p&s. I believe that if the k20d/k7 was thrown in it would also outperform the 7d! So the 7d is the perfect aps-c, except for one thing - IQ! Source, a thread on a different forum: Re: Solutions for all 7D AF problems:: Canon EOS 7D / 50D - 10D Forum: Digital Photography Review

11-15-2009, 01:14 PM	#15
Samsungian Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Colorado USA Posts: 1,337	Here's a 7D poll with some replies at fredmiranda Here's a 7D poll with some replies at fredmiranda Some people do love 7D. Nice thing with canon is there are many diferrent cameras to choose from, many different lenses to choose from to fit one's specific needs: 7D - Love or Hate - FM Forums

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11-13-2009, 10:43 AM	#2
SuperAkuma Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Bay Area, CA Photos: Gallery Posts: 445	Originally posted by superfuzzy The Canon EOS 7D Review Darwin Wiggett Seems like an objective and possibly accurate comparison - 7D vs. other Canon and Nikon DSLR's and a p&s. I believe that if the k20d/k7 was thrown in it would also outperform the 7d! So the 7d is the perfect aps-c, except for one thing - IQ! Source, a thread on a different forum: Re: Solutions for all 7D AF problems:: Canon EOS 7D / 50D - 10D Forum: Digital Photography Review That is not the same results as dpreview, I wonder what went wrong?

11-13-2009, 11:06 AM	#3
RBellavance Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Near Montréal, Canada Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,716	People using APS-C sensor, especially an 18MP one, at f/13 and f/16 to check sharpness probably don't know what they are doing... The 7D has the highest pixel density off all the cameras they tested, and is therefore more affected by diffraction at an equal aperture. I would definitely expect it to be softer.

11-13-2009, 12:29 PM	#4
superfuzzy Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: NJ, USA (close to NYC) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 278 Original Poster	Originally posted by RBellavance People using APS-C sensor, especially an 18MP one, at f/13 and f/16 to check sharpness probably don't know what they are doing... The 7D has the highest pixel density off all the cameras they tested, and is therefore more affected by diffraction at an equal aperture. I would definitely expect it to be softer. The results could be due to diffraction, or maybe not. If diffraction is the culprit, 7d users should be aware of the focal length where diffraction is significant. This was one series of tests, and interesting reading. As far as validity goes, who knows Diffraction Limited Photography: Pixel Size, Aperture and Airy Disks

11-13-2009, 01:06 PM	#5
pingflood Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Borås, Sweden Photos: Gallery Posts: 3,169	Let's step back and think for a minute here. Are all the 7D users just gullible morons who don't understand it's no better than a cheap Rebel, and Canon just screwed up and made their top of the line APS-C camera underperform massively OR could this guy's testing be flawed? Hmmmm... what's more likely? Here's another test, since you like those: Canon EOS 7D Master thread - FM Forums Also, wasn't this the "no brand wars" forum? You're clearly trolling, being all excited about finding the 7D to have "problems".

11-13-2009, 01:38 PM	#6
nostatic Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: socal Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,575	I'm convinced that probably 90+% of "problems" are user error or a variable that the user is not accounting for. I also have no doubt that there are some niggles with the 7D. Every camera has them. But I also have no doubt that there are plenty of users who will create stunning images with the camera. From all accounts the new AF system is just that - a new AF system, and one needs to learn the system to take full advantage. Too many people (myself included) get a new tool and don't bother to learn how to use it, and instead try to use their previous skill set or approach. If the 7D doesn't do it for you, then don't buy it. No one is holding a gun to your head. And the author of the blog should be happy that a G11 does what he needs. I find it hard to believe that a G11 file will stand up to a properly shot and developed 7D file. But if he's pointing and shooting, then maybe the G11 is the right tool...

11-13-2009, 02:03 PM	#7
Alfisti Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Toronto (for now) Posts: 1,748	I subscribe to the theory that a DSLR is littered with problems unless ALL the stars align. The lens has to mate PERFECTLY to the camera, the focus needs to be BANG ON accurate etc etc etc. I still find my 20D in lowish light is mushier than the K100D even at base iSO ... it's mystifying.

11-13-2009, 07:29 PM	#8
LeDave Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Minneapolis - St. Paul Photos: Gallery Posts: 3,067	Ouch, now I guess the D300 can revert back to it's 1800 price-tag again. J/k

11-14-2009, 06:22 AM	#9
Miserere Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Boston Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,993	Originally posted by RBellavance People using APS-C sensor, especially an 18MP one, at f/13 and f/16 to check sharpness probably don't know what they are doing... Ditto. And it doesn't really matter that much if you have an 18MP or 10MP sensor. I only go beyond f/11 on my K10D if I really, really need the DoF. If these people are going to check for sharpness, they should look at their lens's MTF charts and use its optimal aperture. I've been very impressed by the Canon 7D, and all the pics I've seen taken by people who know what they're doing looked great. High ISO performance is outstanding for an APS-C camera.

11-14-2009, 12:45 PM	#10
*isteve Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: London, England Posts: 1,187	Originally posted by superfuzzy The Canon EOS 7D Review Darwin Wiggett Seems like an objective and possibly accurate comparison - 7D vs. other Canon and Nikon DSLR's and a p&s. I believe that if the k20d/k7 was thrown in it would also outperform the 7d! So the 7d is the perfect aps-c, except for one thing - IQ! Source, a thread on a different forum: Re: Solutions for all 7D AF problems:: Canon EOS 7D / 50D - 10D Forum: Digital Photography Review Interesting review here, which seems to contradict it slightly but does point out quite a few usability flaws. Does not mention that you cant change focus screens either. British Journal of Photography - Magnificent 7? I have a friend who did just return one because of focus issues with his 500 F4, and no he is not an idiot and yes he did read the manual and he uses a 1Dmk2 as his main camera. He wanted the 7D as a backup and portable alternative but he's not going to bother now.

11-14-2009, 01:17 PM	#11
KungPOW Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Vancouver, Canada Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,699	That review also states the 7D has 77 body seals. I don't think this is right. I think they have this mixed up with the K-7.

11-14-2009, 03:26 PM	#12
Jonson PL Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Copenhagen Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,842	Interesting read, thanks

11-15-2009, 10:28 AM	#13
dylansalt Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Durban, South Africa Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,052	http://rolandlim.smugmug.com/photos/704777875_Rjkbj-O.jpg Unedited jpeg shot at ISO 1600 I put this through my standard pp workflow and I reckon the 7D is quite impressive. Dyls

11-15-2009, 11:15 AM	#14
superfuzzy Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: NJ, USA (close to NYC) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 278 Original Poster	There's another thread on a different forum - Lets settle the 'Darwin Wiggett' debate! :-): Canon EOS 7D / 50D - 10D Forum: Digital Photography Review "Those of you who are accusing Darwin of not knowing what he's doing are making fools of yourselves and are an embarrassment to Canon users who want to see the truth. Darwin wasn't out to prove the 7D is perfect, he was just showing how it performs in certain situations with certain settings. " and "Which only proves Darwin's point. Have you actually read his review? He didn't say the 7D is a terrible camera. He said it doesn't work for him for the type of photography he does and the settings he needs for that type of photography. " There also seems to be QA problems with the AF. It may be .00001% of the cameras or 5% - who knows? After reading most of this stuff I conclude that the Canon 7D is a VERY complicated piece of electronics, and with that many megapixels squeezed into the small 1.6 crop sensor the sweet spot is smaller than for other aps-c DLSR's. Much of the problems may be due to user error - folks not reading the user guide on AF, or not calibrating each lens to their 7d body. Bottom line, the pasture on the other side is not always greener!