[bimjo]

Okay guys, I'm loooking for a change of pace here. I currently have a K20/grip with lenses that span from fisheye to 250mm. All zooms except a 50/1.4 and a 135/2.5.

I'm looking to lighten the load when I'm out-and-about taking pics. So, I'm looking for opinions on what might best suit my needs. I AM NOT looking to start a fight/peeing contest here, I'm trying to decide how best to spend my money to get what I need.

Things to know about me/how I shoot:
-If I need critical focus I use a tripod. So basically for anything except snapshots.
-I hate noisy pics, so I seldom use more than ISO 800 (mostly a function of camera used).
-I really like to shoot UWA.
-I love the look I get with my 135/2.5, but frankly my eyesight ain't what it once was and manual focus with the K20 is a very hit-or-miss adventure for me.
-I am not, however, averse to manual focus lenses, especially since they can be substantially smaller/lighter than their AF cousins. Not will I particularly miss AF. Okay maybe one lens just 'cuz.

So, I've narrowed my search down to the NEX-5N or the GXR. I'll list what I think what features of each will better suit me/my style. I'll be selling most of my Pentax kit to fund this new obsession (lightness). To my mind the only lenses that I'll keep will be the DA 10-17 and my Sigma 10-20 (may replace with a 8-16 later).

What I'd like you to do is shoot holes in my logic wherever necessary. Here goes:

NEX pluses
-tripod socket centered under lens/l-bracket available
-lens adapter for K mount that will allow DA lens use (aperture control on adapter)
-tilting lcd screen
-better video performance
-better evf?

GXR pluses
-body/sensor separate - upgrades not tied together
-better physical controls
-microlenses for better edge performance
-no AA filter

Things like separate evf, noise performance, size/weight seems to be a wash. It seems to me that as I've lined things out that the NEX is a better choice for my needs. If I've overlooked anything obvious, please chime in. Thanks in advance for your comments.

[kenafein]

You could also consider a Samsung NX 20 or 200. Samsung is going to release a 12-24 next year. Their lens lineup is really exciting, and Sony just doesn't have the lenses to match, especially when you consider, the flood in Thailand wiped out their lens manufacturing facility. Samsung has 16, 20, 30 and 55 mm pancake primes that are really compact. They are also releasing a 135/2 and many nice zooms too, and it has a k-mount adapter.

The NEX-5N is awesome though, the sensor is great for low light, and manual focus on this camera is supposedly very very easy. Your old eyes won't have any trouble focusing with one of these.

I don't really know much about the GXR.

[bimjo]

Hey thanks kenafein, I hadn't even thought of the Samsung line. I'll check it out.

[Mareket]

If Ricoh actually came out with a K-mount for their GXR then that'd be the obvious choice, but that's just a hopeful speculation at this point. They do have an M mount adapter though, and M mount lenses are small and optically incredible, even the cheaper ones. They do tend to be more expensive though.

From everything I've heard the Nex-5n sounds like the ideal choice here. I personally hate the physical controls (or the total lack thereof) of it, but for a small camera you can't beat it. The lenses are much bigger than M mount ones though, so is lens or body size more important?

[bimjo]

Yeah, I may just hold off to see where things go re: GXR modules. M lenses are one thing that really interest me actually. The jury is stil out. Honestly, if Ricoh came out with a new body with a tilt LCD screen and a tripod mount centered under the lens I'd be all over it.

Total package size is important actually, so either body would work there. Lenses will fall where they may. I'd really like to keep the DA 10-17, because it's really pretty small for what it is. Aperture control is the issue.

Fortunately, this isn't something I need to do by tomorrow. Thanks for the input.

[Frogfish]

It seems to me you are giving up an awful lot to go 'light' especially when you use a tripod more often than not and that in itself seems to be in direct contrast to your stated aims ! You are hardly going to pocket a tripod. I love the 5N but after having tried it there is not so great a size difference between that and the Kr once lenses and adapters are installed. I'd go for the Kr and Pentax's fantastic small (and pancake) primes.

[kenafein]

Yeah, I may just hold off to see where things go re: GXR modules. M lenses are one thing that really interest me actually. The jury is stil out. Honestly, if Ricoh came out with a new body with a tilt LCD screen and a tripod mount centered under the lens I'd be all over it.

Total package size is important actually, so either body would work there. Lenses will fall where they may. I'd really like to keep the DA 10-17, because it's really pretty small for what it is. Aperture control is the issue.

Fortunately, this isn't something I need to do by tomorrow. Thanks for the input.

If you really want M lenses, then the Samsung is not for you, but they have a really comprehensive lens lineup(coming) and can fit almost everything else. You can even get the Samyang Fish-eye lens, which is amazing. The NX20 won't be out until January, but keep a lookout for the review of the sensor from the NX200 any time now (DPReview). I think you'll be set from 12-400mm with Samsung and have a truly small camera, when you need it, not a small camera with a gigantic lens.

[bimjo]

It seems to me you are giving up an awful lot to go 'light' especially when you use a tripod more often than not and that in itself seems to be in direct contrast to your stated aims ! You are hardly going to pocket a tripod. I love the 5N but after having tried it there is not so great a size difference between that and the Kr once lenses and adapters are installed. I'd go for the Kr and Pentax's fantastic small (and pancake) primes.

True enough, but when I can get a camera and 4 or 5 lenses for the weight of my camera and 1 (maybe 2) lenses it seems a fair tradeoff. The tripod is on top of that. And I could go with a lighter tripod than what I'm schlepping around now.

I'll admit that in the past I've poo-pood using a lcd to frame a shot. But I gotta tell ya, after 2 motorcycle crashes and a near-death illness in the last 4 years it begins to make more sense to me. Especially for low angle shots. Creaky is my new middle name.

You do bring up good points though and I appreciate the input. More to ponder…

[bimjo]

If you really want M lenses, then the Samsung is not for you, but they have a really comprehensive lens lineup(coming) and can fit almost everything else. You can even get the Samyang Fish-eye lens, which is amazing. The NX20 won't be out until January, but keep a lookout for the review of the sensor from the NX200 any time now (DPReview). I think you'll be set from 12-400mm with Samsung and have a truly small camera, when you need it, not a small camera with a gigantic lens.

Added to my list of things to consider, thanks. Why is this never easy??!?!?

[nickthetasmaniac]

Okay guys, I'm loooking for a change of pace here. I currently have a K20/grip with lenses that span from fisheye to 250mm. All zooms except a 50/1.4 and a 135/2.5.

I'd hang on to the last two - they're both amazing on MFT (and presumably the other mirrorless bodies )


K135/f2.5


M50/f1.4

I'm looking to lighten the load when I'm out-and-about taking pics. So, I'm looking for opinions on what might best suit my needs. I AM NOT looking to start a fight/peeing contest here, I'm trying to decide how best to spend my money to get what I need.

Things to know about me/how I shoot:
-If I need critical focus I use a tripod. So basically for anything except snapshots.

-I hate noisy pics, so I seldom use more than ISO 800 (mostly a function of camera used).

Out of the mirrorless options the 5N is going to be the winner for noise, even compared to the NEX7 with the newer sensor - the Sony 16mp sensor is a gem... That said, the 16mp Panasonic sensor in the GH2 and G3 performs very well also - I happily use my GH2 at 1600iso with just the default noise reduction on my RAW files in Apple Aperture and still find plenty of colour, detail and dynamic range in my files. I don't really know anything about the Ricoh 12mp sensor...


Shot in dim-light with the GH2 and 20/f1.7 at 1/15", 1600iso and f1.7.

-I really like to shoot UWA.

Micro Four Thirds is the only mirrorless platform that has this covered. At the moment there is the following available in native MFT mount (35mm equ. in brackets) - Panasonic 7-14/f4 (14-28mm), Olympus 9-18/f3.5-5.6 (18-36mm), Olympus 12/f2 (24mm), SLR Magic 12/f1.6 (24mm) and Panasonic 14/f2.5 (28mm). Then there's the classic Four Thirds lenses that can be used adapter with auto-focus: Oly 7-14/f4, Oly 9-18/f3.5-5.6, Oly 11-22/f2.8-3.5.


This was shot with the 7-14/f4, which is an amazing lens.

-I love the look I get with my 135/2.5, but frankly my eyesight ain't what it once was and manual focus with the K20 is a very hit-or-miss adventure for me.

All of the mirrorless platforms that offer an EVF are fantastic for manual lenses - magnified live-view and proper aperture-priority is a revelation.

The most suitable system is going to depend on how you want to use your lenses - I've built up a collection to cover my telephoto needs, so MFT with it's 2x crop is fine for me. If you want so shoot manual lenses a bit wider then NEX will be better.

-I am not, however, averse to manual focus lenses, especially since they can be substantially smaller/lighter than their AF cousins. Not will I particularly miss AF. Okay maybe one lens just 'cuz.

The ability to use manual lenses efficiently is one of the best selling points of mirrorless I think. Since getting my GH2 I've gone from a fully AF kit to shooting almost solely with the Voigtlander 25/f0.95 and Pentax 50/f1.2. It's just easy

So, I've narrowed my search down to the NEX-5N or the GXR. I'll list what I think what features of each will better suit me/my style. I'll be selling most of my Pentax kit to fund this new obsession (lightness). To my mind the only lenses that I'll keep will be the DA 10-17 and my Sigma 10-20 (may replace with a 8-16 later).

As I mentioned, you'd be flat-out dumb to sell your 50/f1.4 and 135/f2.5

What I'd like you to do is shoot holes in my logic wherever necessary. Here goes:

NEX pluses
-tripod socket centered under lens/l-bracket available

True. Also true of Micro Four Thirds.

-lens adapter for K mount that will allow DA lens use (aperture control on adapter)

True. Also true of Micro Four Thirds.

-tilting lcd screen

True. Also true of Micro Four Thirds.

-better video performance

True. But the GH2 is still allround king of video, especially with the new hacks that are starting to emerge.

-better evf?

Not sure... I know the new one in the NEX7 is suppose to be amazing, but is that the same as the Sony external EVF?

GXR pluses
-body/sensor separate - upgrades not tied together

I never understood this logic... It just means that your sensor/lens upgrades are tied together, and I always felt that these were the shortest and longest lived elements of a camera

-better physical controls

Probably. I've never used a GXR, but from my experience with the GRD1 the Ricoh user interface is fantastic

-microlenses for better edge performance

Will you actually see it though?

-no AA filter

Always nice, but can be a pain when you're shooting moire-inducing subjects...

Things like separate evf, noise performance, size/weight seems to be a wash. It seems to me that as I've lined things out that the NEX is a better choice for my needs. If I've overlooked anything obvious, please chime in. Thanks in advance for your comments.

My thought in general:

- GXR if you want to use M-mount lenses.
- Sony 5N if you want the best sensor or want to use wide legacy lenses.
- Micro Four Thirds (possibly the G3?) if you want to shoot wide-angle - it's simply the most mature mirrorless system at the moment.

[bimjo]

Wow nick, stunning shots. I would keep the 2 manual focus lenses regardless of which camera I go with. Re: GXR body/sensor separate- I was referring specifically to the M mount module/any potential K mount module. The lensors don't particularly appeal to me for the reason you stated. I never really looked at the GXR until they brought out the M module.

From what I read the evf for NEX 5N/7 is the same, differing only in how they're mounted. I strongly suspect that I'm going to have to travel to the big city and haunt camera stores before I can make a decision.

Thanks for taking the time to make your points, I really appreciate it. More still to ponder…

[pinholecam]

My few cents :

1. GXR M-module : if you use or already have M-lenses and nothing else (cause of the touted micro-lenses). Nice ooc colors too.
2. NEX 5n : Better all round sensor platform for MF lenses of any brand. Lousy sized and not too great performing native lenses so you can forget about them for now and the immediate future (ie. 2yrs; till next roadmap). Personally, I'd not pay full price for it, since I'm not using the AF and auto aperture if I get one.
3. m4/3 : Viable choice. Small, good, light and not too expensive native lenses. Only real down side is DOF control if one is picky and perhaps distortion on lenses which are corrected by software. ISO performance is not as big a deal with G3, GH2 and some claim EP3, EPL3. Comfortably usable up to ISO1600. Personally, I think ISO3200 and 6400 to be usable too and rather close to the K20. Just need to tweak the NR to taste.

ImagingResource ISO3200
G3 - Digital Cameras, Panasonic Lumix DMC-G3 Digital Camera Test Image
K7 - Digital Cameras, Pentax K-7 Digital Camera Test Image

[nickthetasmaniac]

...and perhaps distortion on lenses which are corrected by software.

Just in case the OP or others aren't familiar with how this works - all Micro Four Thirds bodies correct all Micro Four Thirds lenses for distortion (well, the ones that actually need it) in-camera for jpegs.

Likewise if shooting RAW, all MFT bodies embed the RAW metadata with correction information. So, when you upload files into any of the major RAW converters (ACR, Lightroom, Aperture, Silkypix, Capture One) they correct automatically - you will never see uncorrected files.

The only time this isn't the case is if using small third-party converters like RawTherepee...

[Frogfish]

True enough, but when I can get a camera and 4 or 5 lenses for the weight of my camera and 1 (maybe 2) lenses it seems a fair tradeoff. The tripod is on top of that. And I could go with a lighter tripod than what I'm schlepping around now.

I'll admit that in the past I've poo-pood using a lcd to frame a shot. But I gotta tell ya, after 2 motorcycle crashes and a near-death illness in the last 4 years it begins to make more sense to me. Especially for low angle shots. Creaky is my new middle name.

You do bring up good points though and I appreciate the input. More to ponder…

K20D : 142 x 101 x 70 mm (5.59 x 3.98 x 2.76"). 800 g (1.76 lb / 28.22 oz) inc. battery.

Kr : 125mm x 97mm x 68mm (4.8 x 3.6 x 2.7 in). With D-LI109 battery: 598g (20.5 oz).

Sony 5N : 110.8 x 62.2 x 38.2 mm (4 3/8 x 2 3/8 x 1 9/16 in.). 269 g (9.5 oz.)

As you can see there is a world of difference between your current camera (K20D) and the Kr and the NEX 5N, but size-wise the Kr to 5N is not so dramatic falling right in the middle (K20 to 5N). In fact it is really only the depth that you would notice and if you slap an adapter on the 5N then this has gone too.

Pentax Lenses : 15/4 7.47 oz (212g), 21/3.2 (5.5 oz./155g) with hood, 35/2.4 (124g/4.4 oz.), 40/2.8 3.2 oz. (90g), 43 Ltd (5.5oz/ g), 70/2.4 4.6 oz. (130g), 50-200 (non WR) (9.2 oz. 262g).

Sony Lenses (5N) (don't forget these are NOT stabilised unless stated (OSS), which adds considerable weight) : Typical adapter 3.9 oz (110g). E to A mount Adapter ($400 !) 7.1oz (200g), E 16mm f/2.8 SEL16F28 (70g / 2.5 oz), Carl Zeiss Sonnar T* E 24mm F1.8 ZA (225g / 8 oz), E 30mm f/3.5 Macro (138g / 4.9 oz), E 50mm F1.8 OSS (202g / 7.3 oz), SEL 1855 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 (6.84 oz (194 g)), E 55-210mm F4.5-6.3 OSS (12.1 oz (343 g)).

I think you can see quite clearly from the above that the size & weight saving is small without an adapter and this then becomes negligible (as does the size difference) when adding an adapter.

Typical usage Kr + lens : with 15 (810g), with 21 (753g), with 35 (722), with 40 (688g), with 70 (728g), with 50-200 (860g).

Typical usage NEX 5N + lens (add another 110g to 200g if using non-E mount lens with adapter) : 16 (349g), 24 (494g), 30 (407g), 50 (471g), 18-55 (463g), 55-210 (612g).

You pay your money and make your choice but for me a saving of 120g to 450g for my primary system (and missing out on the extra options of the Kr and wonderful Pentax primes) is just not worth it. I see the 5N/7 as wonderful back-up options though (with an E to PK adapter so I don't have to buy E/A mount lenses), especially if you are comfortable using MF. YMMV !

[pinholecam]

Oh yeah, one thing on all these EVF/LCD cameras, the gain goes up in lower light conditions (eg. 10ft from room window), so it becomes harder to determine focus sharpness via EVF/LCD.