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03-01-2012, 01:21 AM   #151
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QuoteOriginally posted by gazonk Quote
Funny But doesn't quite match my experience - my latest Symbian two Symbian phones (before switching to iPhone) had a basically useless battery after only one year of use, had to be charged twice a day or so...
I was refering to the Androids. I do not consider iPhone as a serious phone. The poor signal reception and scratch prone display cover rules it out from my list (Although I like Apple and I write a lot of posts on this forum from MacBook Air).

Tonto: The PureView technology is exclusive to Nokia and they have no intention to license it to others manufacturers. I believe it is more likely to get the Apple messaging app for Symbian or Windows phone than getting PureView camera on Samsung or Apple phone.

03-01-2012, 01:42 AM   #152
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QuoteOriginally posted by elho_cid Quote
Tonto: The PureView technology is exclusive to Nokia and they have no intention to license it to others manufacturers. I believe it is more likely to get the Apple messaging app for Symbian or Windows phone than getting PureView camera on Samsung or Apple phone.
I think that'll largely depend on Nokia's commercial fortunes in the next couple of years. Windows phones haven't really made a dent in the market yet and all their eggs are pretty much in that basket. Very difficult to predict.
03-01-2012, 02:08 AM   #153
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QuoteOriginally posted by elho_cid Quote
I was refering to the Androids. I do not consider iPhone as a serious phone. The poor signal reception and scratch prone display cover rules it out from my list (Although I like Apple and I write a lot of posts on this forum from MacBook Air).
scratch prone display? You must be kidding (checking my 1,5 year old iPhone 4.. nope, still zero scratches). Let me tell you a story about the display of my Nokia E61.... no, wait, this is off topic anyway.

QuoteQuote:
Tonto: The PureView technology is exclusive to Nokia and they have no intention to license it to others manufacturers. I believe it is more likely to get the Apple messaging app for Symbian or Windows phone than getting PureView camera on Samsung or Apple phone.
It doesn't look to me that there is anything inherently unique to this technology - it's mainly a question of using large enough sensors with enough pixels. They may have some pretty well-implemented algorithms for crunching those 40mp images fast enough on that small processor, though.
03-01-2012, 03:06 AM   #154
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QuoteQuote:
Any further insight on who made the chip?
There are rumors that it was developed with Toshiba: Nokia unveils 41-megapixel imaging sensor technology
QuoteQuote:
[...] a sensor -- developed with Toshiba and other Nokia partners, coupled with Carl Zeiss optics -- that can capture 41 megapixels [...]
--

Nokia's N8 uses a 12MP (1.75um-pixel) sensor from Toshiba (HES7)

--

Global and China CMOS Camera Module Industry Report, 2011

Toshiba
Sony
OmniVision
Aptina
Samsung
SETi
STMicroelectronics


Last edited by froeschle; 03-01-2012 at 03:31 AM.
03-01-2012, 03:45 AM   #155
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QuoteOriginally posted by timh Quote
(Unforgivable diversion, sorry, but... Email?)
Yeah I know, but some people I know struggle with that kind of thing Doesn't matter, we won't see any in Oz anytime soon anyway, and my phone (post washing machine) is sicker by the day, 'works' though!

Oh, I forgot it replacing my iPod too...I knew there was another reason!
03-01-2012, 04:32 AM   #156
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"Resolution tests":
Nokia 808 vs. Nikon P300
Nokia 808 vs. Panasonic ZS3/TZ7
03-01-2012, 05:27 AM   #157
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QuoteOriginally posted by elho_cid Quote
I do not consider iPhone as a serious phone. The poor signal reception and scratch prone display cover
The iPhone 4's reception problems seem to be a US thing, and you're in Europe. Even with 1 bar signal strength, I can do phone calls where many conventional phones don't show a network. And scratch prone? I dropped my unprotected iPhone4 several times, the glass hitting concrete with its edge from a meter at least. No scratches. The edge is now a bit rough, but no other damage. It is wonderfully solid. I guess you could even drive with a car over it ...
03-01-2012, 06:00 AM   #158
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QuoteOriginally posted by Unsinkable II Quote
- Nokia claims the optics are up to 10X more precise than a "typical SLR lens"

Link: Visualized: Nokia's 41-megapixel PureView sensor (updated with video) -- Engadget
He's reason to be angry. I saw "marketing lie" posted here as well

So, what do we know from all sources above:

  • Joint project with Toshiba and Zeiss which took 5 years to deliver.
  • Zeiss optics with 400 lp/mm in the center wide open, still about 200 lp/mm in good, maybe 100 lp/mm in bad corners. Spectacular numbers. Corner numbers are my guesses from looking at the corner crops linked to above and the remark that corners are still outresolving a conventional P&S in the center.
  • The 10x better accuracy is a must to achieve this. However, I guess it is only about 4x over a top notch full frame lens as this is what would be required.
  • Its 5MP output outresolves jpg from 10MP P&S.
  • At the wide end, low light capabilities beating any P&S and probably rivaling FourThirds.



  • AND ONE MORE THING ...



  • Video processed at 1 billion pixels/s, which is 40MP @ 25fps, i.e., it does full oversampling in HD video!!!

    This allows stunningly sharp, artefact free and alias free video which money can only buy at 4-5 digit $$!!
    It can capture light like a 3x line- and row- skipping full frame HDSLR at f/2.8.

    The 808 may become THE new cult for video.


EDIT:

I guess, the 808 will become an item which sells out quick. Which is why, before posting this, I made sure I actually already did my order! (It appeared in first European online shops today, Amazon pending).

The store says 2-3 weeks shipping time, so I should receive it later this month

@jogiba: And no, I didn't order a plan. I don't see why the fact, that most iPhone users ordered their iPhone with a plan, makes the 808 at €500 a less compelling compact camera for stills and video. One thing is unrelated to the other.


Last edited by falconeye; 03-01-2012 at 06:22 AM.
03-01-2012, 08:08 AM   #159
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Put an order in as well. Will make a good successor to my N8. Symbian Belle is a functional OS, not as good as Meego or even Maemo for that matter but it does the job. The thing about this phone is the combined feature set, amazing camera, reasonable amount of storage, reasonable battery life (1.5 days typically), free mapping download a ,map and use GPS from there on in), working Bluetooth that actually supports the standard correctly and quick charging. The FM transmitter has for me become a mandatory feature and i'm glad it retains it.

Last edited by robbiec; 03-01-2012 at 08:22 AM.
03-01-2012, 09:18 AM   #160
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QuoteQuote:
@jogiba: And no, I didn't order a plan. I don't see why the fact, that most iPhone users ordered their iPhone with a plan, makes the 808 at €500 a less compelling compact camera for stills and video. One thing is unrelated to the other.
What ? I think something was lost in translation. I posted this:
QuoteQuote:
I just want a feature phone with no data plan from Verizon with the 41mp camera. I have a Microsoft KinTwom feature phone from Verizon with 8mp /720p still/HD video camera with Wi-Fi internet and no data plan that has the contract expiring in October. It looks like you have to get a smartphone with data plan now at Verizon if you want 8mp/720p still /HD video now since the Kin Twom is discontinued.
BTW if Verizon does not have the Nokia 808 by October I may get the Samsung Galaxy Note since it has the best screen (a 5.3” WXGA 1280 x 800 HD Super AMOLED screen) with 8mp stills and 1080p HD video. I shoot more video than stills.
Samsung Galaxy Note is coming to Verizon as the Galaxy Journal?

The Nokia only has a 360 x 640 pixel display vs 800x1280 for the Note.


Last edited by jogiba; 03-01-2012 at 09:28 AM.
03-01-2012, 09:47 AM   #161
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Here is a short video of the 808's camera UI.

It looks more complete than the typical mobile phone camera UI. I've seen 3 customizable User Modes and an ISO button.

Here is a video, maybe others can extract more info

[source: Nokia 808 PureView, prise en main vidéo en français ]

EDIT:
additional info, a night video with the 808. I attach a 100% crop from one frame. It looks pretty noise free. There may be youtube compression artefacts.


EDIT2:
One more low light sample. Here, you can clearly see supersampling at work (image quality improves when zooming out). You also see a defiite horizontal banding problem in the blacks for this prototype device. Other cameras have it too. Sony sensors seem to have solved this.

Attached Images
 

Last edited by falconeye; 03-01-2012 at 11:16 AM.
03-01-2012, 10:47 AM   #162
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Damian Dinning on the Nokia 808 PureView's incredible 41-megapixel camera

Damian Dinning is the lead manager for Nokia's Imaging Experience, and a photo expert with past experience at Nikon, Kodak and Minolta. He explains how Nokia went about engineering the 41-megapixel camera in the Nokia 808 PureView.


Last edited by jogiba; 03-01-2012 at 11:16 AM.
03-01-2012, 11:20 AM   #163
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QuoteOriginally posted by jogiba Quote
Damian Dinning [...] explains how Nokia went about engineering the 41-megapixel camera in the Nokia 808 PureView.
Thanks.

So, there is a sensor coupled to a dedicated scaling chip, both sitting in the camera module. The bandwidth between the two is 1 GByte/s! Then there is a GPU for processing the image data (corresponding to the Prime processor at Pentax). And then there is the 1.3GHz main CPU (ARM). Both sitting on the main board.

This is a camera with a phone, not the other way round.
03-01-2012, 12:17 PM - 1 Like   #164
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My compilation from D. Dinning at Nokia 808 PureView in focus: An interview with Damian Dinning - GSMArena.com the best source I could find to date:

QuoteQuote:
It all started about five years ago. We wanted to do optical zoom

We looked at folded optics for example, we looked at straight optics; various different configurations, and we couldn't make any of those work well enough.

Later on, when we were thinking about this problem again,

This is where, when you are using the default 5 MP setting, we take up to 7 pixels, take the information that you want from those pixels, and process that using some Nokia algorithms.

GSMArena: Why has no one else produced a 41MP sensor? Is it that expensive?

It's not cheap, but when you compare it to optical zoom, you would have to put more cost into the optics.

There are not many people that can manufacture optics at that level of precision, and you need optics, otherwise you just can't make it work.

it is more complicated than binning. We looked at a number of different methods how we could do this, and some methods preserve more detail

We haven't really made that comparison. What I can say is, depending on the interpolation and downsampling you use in Photoshop, it may be possible that you'll get similar performance.

In Photoshop, you typically might get a sharpness that looks higher, but you might get more noise

The companion chip takes the information directly from the sensor and scales it, before that data goes to the GPU.

We do have a digital stabilizer for video, which we are still tuning at the moment.

Carl Zeiss, yes. The [manufacturing] precision is ten times greater than with SLR [lenses]. There are five lenses, quite small at the top, and then get progressively larger as they approach the sensor. There's also a mechanical ND filter which can be controlled in Creative mode, similar to the N8.

In addition to the precision of the optics, one of the things we've been working on for some time is precision alignment. We have a live image sensor setup when we assemble the optics, so that each and every single module we make is built and then assembled with live feedback from the sensor to ensure proper alignment.

We co-developed the sensor.

GSMArena: Any word on who else is involved?

Unfortunately, not at this time.

[ eds: His boss at the press conference revealed it is Toshiba ]

GSMArena: Are you going to share the technology?

No.

The problem you may have experienced using that algorithm, is that it couldn't adapt quickly enough to sudden bursts of sound.

Whereas with this capability, rather than being limited to a certain level, it's always able to resolve this much higher dynamic range, in terms of volume.

Typically you would need an external microphone to get similar performance capability. In addition to that, the frequency response range that we have is almost the same as CD

We're still optimizing the camera; we don't have the final hardware yet. We're still developing the algorithms—particularly low-light. We still have plenty of work still to do in low-light. While the low-light images are significantly better than on other devices, we believe we can make them even better.
03-01-2012, 02:19 PM   #165
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Nokia 808 PureView camera is "utter nonsense", says Olympus

QuoteQuote:
A spokesperson for Olympus has criticised the new Nokia 808 PureView smartphone, which features a 41 million pixel camera, describing it as "utter nonsense."

Speaking to TechRadar, Mark Thackara, national marketing manager for Olympus said, "It's an interesting attempt to get around the problem of cropping images on a phone."

Since mobile phones don't have zoom lenses, they must rely on digital zoom, or cropping after the image has been shot to get closer to the action.

This has proven limiting to cameras using a lower megapixel count, something which the Pureview is attempting to redress.

Compact cameras have taken a battering from the increasing prevalence of decent quality cameraphones, with sales dropping, especially in the mid-range market.

Although a 41 million pixel image can't be created on the Nokia phone, it does use "pixel binning" to turn a number of pixels into a larger, supposedly better quality pixel.

Thackara said, "It sounds like utter nonsense. The size of the lens means that the overall quality of the image will still be restricted."
Shoot-out

"It is difficult to say too much without seeing the results though," Thackara continued.

"Let's have a shoot out under a number of different conditions and see which one wins - let's try it out against a half decent camera."

Olympus produces a wide range of compact cameras, and recently told us that smartphones will never replace compacts, due to the restricted zoom technology.

Recently, the number of superzoom cameras on the market has risen rapidly as consumers search for something more advanced than is already available on a phone.
Olympus: Nokia 41MP cameraphone 'nonsense' | News | TechRadar

It looks like more superzoom cameras coming since smartphones are dominating the P&S compact camera market with the iPhone alone selling 350,000 a day.
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