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02-27-2012, 11:15 AM   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by Erik Quote
Wait, what? The aperture and focal length never change.
I talked about equivalent properties and they DO change. You must consider a camera system, not a part like a lens. And cropping DOES change a camera as a system.

The 41MP sensor is an amazing sensor for a smart phone. But it is close to the diffraction limit of its lens and the light gathering capabilities. So most users won't need the camera's 41MP resolution but just it's cropping power in camera, aka digital zoom. And in this form, it is not much worse than an optical zoom with variable aperture would be.

I think it isn't marketing BS. It describes a valid use case with thus camera.

02-27-2012, 11:41 AM   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by Erik Quote
There's no "technology" there, PureView is just a made-up marketing word. If you take your K-5's 16MP images and crop them to your desired field-of-view in Photoshop, and then resize the resulting picture to 5 megapixels -- boom! You just implemented PureView on your Pentax!

The sensor itself is pretty amazing, with 41 megapixels in such a small area, but that has nothing to do with what they call "PureView technology".

PureView means they use all 41 megapixels to take the image, but they take clusters of 7 pixels, and average them to obtain a single pixel. Cropping just throws away the extra pixels, Nokia is using the extra pixels to reduce noise, so it's not just a marketing word.

It also allows a digital zoom using progressively lower numbers of pixels in each grouping.
02-27-2012, 12:46 PM   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by elho_cid Quote
The new Belle Symbian is reportedly an OK smartphone operating system. With camera liek this available, photo apps will be there soon.
Nokia exec´s hinted about something like this already last summer. These talks were very vague and difficult to interprete, but did cause quite a lot of speculation on Finnish discussion forums.
They latest version of Symbian is quite OK. However, it is all obvious that Windows-based cameraphones utilizing this technology will be introduced in the foreseeable future. Starting with a Symbian-based model was easier as they have been working with this operating system for several years.
02-27-2012, 12:49 PM   #34
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But is the sensor useable as a 41MP at all or is it always downscaled to 5MP ?
If it is always downscaled then, this 'Pureview' is 5MP lossless zoom camera, no 41MP one.

I'd be curious to know about the details of the sensor...

02-27-2012, 01:05 PM   #35
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Not sure if Nokia will knock off the ipone in Australia. I was doing a photoshoot of a launch last week and had to keep out stretched arms and ipones out of my field of view. Even if if the nokia takes a good photo 99% of the mobile phone snappers couldn't tell the difference.

The phone pics might be fun for a while, but then the users will get p..sed having to clean their card and store their photos on a regular basis.
02-27-2012, 01:05 PM   #36
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I think the maximum image size is 38mp, which can be downsampled to decrease noise or cropped to "zoom".
02-27-2012, 01:13 PM   #37
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this is clearly an incredible camera, but I don't think it will do anything to help Nokia, because people just don't buy smartphones for the camera. the OS is the biggest deciding factor and this is precisely where the Nokia and all current Nokias fall short. not that symbian is bad, though I haven't used Symbian 'Belle'. all of the latest Nokias have been exceptional, nay, outstanding phones with the best cameras in the industry and beyond. but who besides current nokia users is likely to go buy the 808?
02-27-2012, 01:58 PM   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by rjcassara Quote
PureView means they use all 41 megapixels to take the image, but they take clusters of 7 pixels, and average them to obtain a single pixel. Cropping just throws away the extra pixels, Nokia is using the extra pixels to reduce noise, so it's not just a marketing word.

It also allows a digital zoom using progressively lower numbers of pixels in each grouping.
This sounds a little like pixel binning used in the Fuji EXR sensors (used in NR mode)

02-27-2012, 02:04 PM   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
I talked about equivalent properties and they DO change. You must consider a camera system, not a part like a lens. And cropping DOES change a camera as a system.

The 41MP sensor is an amazing sensor for a smart phone. But it is close to the diffraction limit of its lens and the light gathering capabilities. So most users won't need the camera's 41MP resolution but just it's cropping power in camera, aka digital zoom. And in this form, it is not much worse than an optical zoom with variable aperture would be.

I think it isn't marketing BS. It describes a valid use case with thus camera.
Agreed. If they claimed 41 megapixel photos with 3.3x lossless digital zoom, then it would be BS. But they don't. They claim no upsampling of images, for up to 3x zoom at 5 megapixel output. It's all very clearly explained in the white paper,

I seem to remember a similar discussion of equivalency when the Q was announced. It can be confusing the first time you encounter the concept. Or at least, it was for me. But I now understand that you have to multiply each exposure component by the crop factor to get the actual 35mm equivalency.

Last edited by Designosophy; 02-27-2012 at 02:18 PM. Reason: clarification
02-27-2012, 03:08 PM   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by PePe Quote
did cause quite a lot of speculation on Finnish discussion forums.
Has there been any speculation about the source of this sensor on Finnish discussion forums= As far as you know?

QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
But is the sensor useable as a 41MP at all or is it always downscaled to 5MP ?
The second post links to images which are 7152px × 5368px (38.4MP).

QuoteOriginally posted by séamuis Quote
this is clearly an incredible camera, but I don't think it will do anything to help Nokia, because people just don't buy smartphones for the camera.
I agree. However, it may help Nokia as a camera vendor. Eventually, the 808 may be a better camera than enthusiast compacts and may even beat cameras a class up like Pentax Q or Nikon 1 in certain aspects.

But this will all depend on more thorough testing of the image quality and camera performance. E.g., the 7x binning technology may be able to produce stunning HD video quality.
02-27-2012, 03:30 PM   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
I talked about equivalent properties and they DO change. You must consider a camera system, not a part like a lens. And cropping DOES change a camera as a system.

The 41MP sensor is an amazing sensor for a smart phone. But it is close to the diffraction limit of its lens and the light gathering capabilities. So most users won't need the camera's 41MP resolution but just it's cropping power in camera, aka digital zoom. And in this form, it is not much worse than an optical zoom with variable aperture would be.

I think it isn't marketing BS. It describes a valid use case with thus camera.
Thanks Falk on your insights. I think its Nokia is true on what they are giving with Nokia 808. Hands down for for being innovative.
02-27-2012, 03:34 PM   #42
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I remember now. LX3 uses same principle with the last firmware upgrade. They call it EZ-Zoom. Lower the MP will give you additional Optical Zoom.
02-27-2012, 03:42 PM   #43
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Pentax should put this sensor in the Q.
02-27-2012, 03:48 PM   #44
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Pixel-binning 41MP Nokia smartphone hints at a future for small sensor cameras

QuoteQuote:
Nokia has made the startling announcement that it has created a 41MP smartphone, the Nokia 808 PureView. Interestingly, the camera will output 3, 5MP or 8MP stills, rather than offering its full resolution - promising greater quality and offering some clever features. And this isn't a trade-show concept model, this is a product that will be offered to the public in the coming days. What's interesting isn't so much the pixel count as how it's used, so we took a closer look.

The first thing to realize is that this isn't a standard 1/3.2" mobile phone sensor, it's an unusual and remarkably large 1/1.2" type (five times larger). In fact, it's almost three times the size of the sensors in most compact cameras. As a result, its photosites are the same size as those in most 8.2MP cameraphone but the 808 doesn't try to create an image of the same quality, 5 times bigger. Instead it oversamples the image and then pixel-bins down to a smaller size (though you can output the full resolution if you wish - 38MP at 4:3 aspect ratio)
Pixel-binning 41MP Nokia smartphone hints at a future for small sensor cameras: Digital Photography Review


02-27-2012, 03:49 PM   #45
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
Pentax should put this sensor in the Q.
DPReview has a nice chart sgowing the size of the 808 sensor. It is almost the size of the Nikon 1 CX form factor.
The Q has too small an image circle to accomodate anything nearly as large. The Q's sensor is 1/2.3".

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