[magkelly]

The problem is not that Canon and Nikon sell too many cameras. The problem is Pentax doesn't. Nikon and Canon make decent cameras for their market. I happen to believe that Pentax kicks Canon butt in terms of ergonomics and build quality, but so does Nikon for that matter. Sensor-wise it's all semantics because in the end they're all getting their sensors from the same place practically. I've said this before but if I wasn't a Pentaxian I'd be a Nikonian, or whatever it is they call themselves.

I'd probably never buy a Canon camera for myself, but I'm not going to knock those who do. Yeah it would be nice if more sales clerks knew Pentax, would promote it, but you can't really blame them for not promoting what they don't know. If all you see is Canon and Nikon and people are singing their praises all the time then of course you're going to suggest them when customers ask. What choice have you got? Pentax makes some of the best cameras around but do they even have them to sell? No. The stores that do generally know they're a good brand, but Pentax is not exactly making it worth their while to get to know them and to sell more of them. Pentax needs to get their cameras into more stores where people can see and demo them. They need to aggressively go after new locations for their cameras and they need to run training sessions so that the people behind the counters know why they should be promoting them more.

Having more professional photographers dropping their name would not hurt either. Yes, Pentax is first and foremost a hobby/serious enthusiast oriented line, but having more professional people out there displaying their K-5's or whatever while working can't help but raise the brand profile a bit. I don't always look I will admit, but most photographers you go to their site and somewhere they mention what they shoot with.

If Pentax ran a few commercials with pros like Benji showing them using the K-5 doing things like Vogue shoots? Doing a shoot for some big travel magazine in the rain? I think they'd stir up a lot more interest. One well written, well placed, multiple ad campaign, starting at say the Superbowl and I'll bet Nikon and Canon just might have more competition from Pentax than they'd like. Public perception can be changed, practically overnight these days, with viral marketing, but if Pentax Ricoh wants that? They'll just have to work a bit harder for it, and actually pay to get that exposure. It's not the cameras that are lacking. It's the representation and the marketing of said cameras that has kept the brand from being right up there with Nikon and Canon. Pentax has everything going for it as a camera brand. It's just that they don't shout it like Canon and Nikon do.

Me, I can't blame them for doing that. They're in business to make money and be seen as the best after all. But I don't think overall that they make better cameras. Not really. I just think they do a darned good job of making their brands stand out from the pack. Of making it easy for people to get them. Pentax's biggest problem is they've been practically hiding their light under a bushel for years. They've barely had an advertising budget. How were they supposed to compete with two companies that completely outspend them in terms of ad dollars?

Bottom line I think they need to come up with a really great ad campaign a la Apple. I really believe that if they could? They could do for Pentax what Apple has done with tablets, media players and cell phones. They could build a "Cult of Pentax" like mentality if they really wanted to. Think about it. If Pentax was to do some funny, snarky commercial with them playing off some Nikon/Canon-esque person's superior attitude, maybe show them smugly shooting in the rain while the other person is still fiddling and trying to avoid getting wet? How many K-30's or K-5 II's do you think they'd sell? I'd bet a lot, but they'd need a GREAT campaign and they'd need to open up the wallet to produce it.

[shaolen]

Bottom line I think they need to come up with a really great ad campaign a la Apple. I really believe that if they could? They could do for Pentax what Apple has done with tablets, media players and cell phones. They could build a "Cult of Pentax" like mentality if they really wanted to. Think about it. If Pentax was to do some funny, snarky commercial with them playing off some Nikon/Canon-esque person's superior attitude, maybe show them smugly shooting in the rain while the other person is still fiddling and trying to avoid getting wet? How many K-30's or K-5 II's do you think they'd sell? I'd bet a lot, but they'd need a GREAT campaign and they'd need to open up the wallet to produce it.

Thats true about Pentax but the point i was making was about Canon not deserving the treatment they get from the photography world. they cheat everyone by making cheaper products cutting corners and selling them for more money.

[magkelly]

I don't appreciate things made with cheap parts myself but to be fair that's pretty standard across the electronics industry these days. Make cheaper stuff with less expensive parts so you can sell as cheaply as possible. If they made everything 100% solid and wonderful you'd never need to buy a new anything electronic ever again. Haven't you noticed that the idea is that cameras are supposed to die and be recycled every 5 years now? Ditto video recorders and phones and just about everything else. They don't even make cars that are supposed to last more than a decade anymore. They do it on purpose to keep you buying at the end of the so called life cycle. If they made it to last forever you wouldn't need them anymore...

[borno]

A friend of mine has just got a Canon 1DX. What a completely useless and stupid AF system!

We have sat and worked through all the AF scenarios and still cannot find a stable way to use AF. When trying to focus on a bird sitting on a branch most AF systems will lock and stay locked on one point. This system jumps around. You can even set it to use centre point AF only and it will still jump around to surrounding AF points. The bird comes randomly in and out of focus!

I must say it seemed like a very impressive camera but after trying it out for a while it looks like Canon have really messed up their AF system?

For myself I would rather get the K5II/s.

In fact for bird photography that extremely narrow depth of field of FF means you are forced to go F12 or higher which means you loose valuable shutter speed.

So for full frame I suspect Nikon actually have Canon whipped completely, and if its APSC give me a Pentax body.... Just need some more long glass. In fact I hope Pentax bring out a 300mm f2.8 very quick for use with the new AF system in the new K5II!!!! I still have the Sigma route though....

Your friend should read the manual. I think it's sad to have a 1dx and no clue.
There is so much misinformation in this thread it's a joke.

[Blue]

Canon dominated the AF SLR market the day they released the EOS system and took all other players a long time to catch up. Then they made DSLR affordable and grab that market again. At this point in time, Canon APS-C sensors might be lagging behind but who knows what they have been developing behind the scene. Remember it is the system that matters and Canon has been pretty consist all these years. Their products are available pretty much anywhere. Nikon are catching up fast recently and they have the edge on flash system. Pentax is just patching holes and not doing it very well, imho at least.

Canon got a lot of help when Honeywell beat up Minolta in a lawsuit for Patent Infringements filed in 1987. Honeywell had a bunch of concept patents. There were some fallout to other companies as well. Minolta settled at $127.6 Million in 1992. Minolta had bought the rights to AF back in the 70s from Leica.

The Honeywell pukes dinged Olympus, Asahi Optical (Pentax) and others as well.

Honeywell SETTLES Autofocus PATENT ISSUES WITH THREE MORE CAMERA MAKERS Firm to Receive Nearly $52 Million in Payments MINNEAPOLIS, Sept. 25 /PRNewswire/ -- Honeywell (NYSE: HON) said today it will be paid $51.5 million and future royalties by Olympus, Asahi and Ansco Optical to settle issues relating to their use of Honeywell's patented automatic-focus technology for lens-shutter and single-lens-reflex cameras. "Payments from the settlements, which were negotiated separately, will be reported in the company's third-quarter financial results," said Christopher J. Steffen, Honeywell executive vice president and chief financial and administrative officer. Under terms of the settlements, Olympus, Asahi, which makes Pentax cameras, and Ansco will be dropped from lawsuits alleging infringement of Honeywell's autofocus patents. Only four companies -- Fuji Photo Film, Ricoh, Chinon and Vivitar -- remain the subject of Honeywell lawsuits filed earlier this year in U.S. District Court in Newark, N.J. All other companies originally named in the suits have reached negotiated settlements with Honeywell. "We hope to reach settlements with the remaining four companies in an amicable, businesslike manner, just as we have done with the others," Steffen said. Honeywell previously announced autofocus settlements of $251.6 million from eight other camera manufacturers. Honeywell is a global controls company that provides products, systems and services for homes and buildings, industry, and aviation and space. The company employs 58,000 people worldwide and had 1991 sales of $6.2 billion. -0- 9/25/92 /CONTACT: Jill Schmidt of Honeywell, 612-870-2544/ (HON) CO: Honeywell ST: Minnesota IN: SU:

HONEYWELL SETTLES AUTOFOCUS PATENT ISSUES WITH THREE MORE CAMERA MAKERS - Free Online Library

[shaolen]

I don't appreciate things made with cheap parts myself but to be fair that's pretty standard across the electronics industry these days. Make cheaper stuff with less expensive parts so you can sell as cheaply as possible. If they made everything 100% solid and wonderful you'd never need to buy a new anything electronic ever again. Haven't you noticed that the idea is that cameras are supposed to die and be recycled every 5 years now? Ditto video recorders and phones and just about everything else. They don't even make cars that are supposed to last more than a decade anymore. They do it on purpose to keep you buying at the end of the so called life cycle. If they made it to last forever you wouldn't need them anymore...

that's true too but once again by point was that other companies are making quality products while Canon is trying to see how they can still charge you more and save themselves more

[bkpix]

Perhaps I live on some other planet, but the Canon gear I've shot with over the past decade or more has been perfectly good quality and highly reliable. I have never had a problem with a body (I've owned six) or lenses (seven) that required repair, despite rough use. The autofocus, at least on the high end bodies, is brilliant. Canon makes a large assortment of great lenses that are readily available on the new and used market.

Why do I mostly shoot Pentax? Because it's more fun. It's a cool little camera. But between reliability issues (I feel a bit like CRIS is home away from home for my gear), holes in the lens line-up (anybody seen my 1.4 converter? Oh, right, there isn't one) and plodding autofocus, Pentax is like some high-maintenance beauty: Fun to go out with, a bit of a drag to be married to. My Canon gear is boring but it always works, so when I absolutely have to get the picture, that's what goes into the bag.

And are we really worried that the 6D sensor shaves a tenth of a millimeter off one side and a fifth off the other? It looks like a wonderful camera, much more attuned to the wants and needs of the current photography market than the K-5II.

[shaolen]

And are we really worried that the 6D sensor shaves a tenth of a millimeter off one side and a fifth off the other? It looks like a wonderful camera, much more attuned to the wants and needs of the current photography market than the K-5II.

Its more the fact that they had to do that in the first place. We know it wasn't done to save us money. Nikon gave the whole full frame at that price. Its to keep them making a certain amount of profit. Why buy the overly compromised 6D when you can get the D600 and know the company did this because they really wanted to give us a good product for the money

[Blue]

Perhaps I live on some other planet, but the Canon gear I've shot with over the past decade or more has been perfectly good quality and highly reliable. I have never had a problem with a body (I've owned six) or lenses (seven) that required repair, despite rough use. The autofocus, at least on the high end bodies, is brilliant. Canon makes a large assortment of great lenses that are readily available on the new and used market.

Why do I mostly shoot Pentax? Because it's more fun. It's a cool little camera. But between reliability issues (I feel a bit like CRIS is home away from home for my gear), holes in the lens line-up (anybody seen my 1.4 converter? Oh, right, there isn't one) and plodding autofocus, Pentax is like some high-maintenance beauty: Fun to go out with, a bit of a drag to be married to. My Canon gear is boring but it always works, so when I absolutely have to get the picture, that's what goes into the bag.

And are we really worried that the 6D sensor shaves a tenth of a millimeter off one side and a fifth off the other? It looks like a wonderful camera, much more attuned to the wants and needs of the current photography market than the K-5II.

I have some EOS gear, specifically macro gear that I have had since the early 90s. It has been very reliable. The bodies didn't have the greatest feel to them. I can't complain about the lenses though nor the FD Bellows and matched macro lens. That said the EOS 10s and A2 were very good film bodies. I sold the A2 about 3 years ago but still have the 10s and the macro stuff. I even have a FD macro adapter to EOS made by Canon they gave me to get me to shut up about geeking me with my macro stuff. I also have an authentic Tamron AD2 EOS mount. All of my regular film stuff was manual focus Pentax. I got into af Pentax when I went Pentax digital so then I got an MZ-3 film body. My first digital gear was actually Nikon and the 70s (my second digital camera) is somewhere in my lab.

[Big G]

There is so much misinformation in this thread it's a joke.

This .

Conjecture, surmising, subjective remarks.

"Canon's ergonomics suck!" - everyone likes their own camera ergonomics once they're used to it, and it's purely a personal preference or opinion.

Speaking as a former Canon, Pentax and Sony shooter, one BIG advantage is that the lens rental market is significantly better for Canikon shooters. Need a Canon EF 400mm f/2.8 for a week at short notice? No problem. Need a 400mm f/2.8 Pentax lens? Oh wait, they don't do one. OH WAIT, the lens rental place doesn't even stock Pentax or Sony - plenty of Canikon mount lenses! It doesn't matter how much kicking and screaming you do for the Pentax brand, they just simply do not meet the requirements of a lot of photographers. Need perspective control on your EOS 5D MK3? No problem.

The age old argument of "but the K-5 has over 14 stops of DR!!!! why are people not buying this more?!" - certainly in the landscape world, neutral density filters, manual exposure blending and even multi shot HDR close the gap very quickly for those that have the skills.

Personally, I genuinely believe Canon are not innovating like Nikon or Sony are. The Sony Exmor sensors have been proven ad nauseum to wipe the floor with Canon sensors for those that need to push shadows or exposures without sacrificing image quality. As soon as Canon wave a white flag and say "we're using Sony sensors", then the playing field is levelled again, particularly in the entry level market.

EOS 700D with a 24 Megapixel Sony Exmor sensor (like a Nikon D3200..) and access to an array of awesome lenses? That'll sell like hot cakes.

My 2p.

[Blue]

This .

Conjecture, surmising, subjective remarks.

"Canon's ergonomics suck!" - everyone likes their own camera ergonomics once they're used to it, and it's purely a personal preference or opinion.

Speaking as a former Canon, Pentax and Sony shooter, one BIG advantage is that the lens rental market is significantly better for Canikon shooters. Need a Canon EF 400mm f/2.8 for a week at short notice? No problem. Need a 400mm f/2.8 Pentax lens? Oh wait, they don't do one. OH WAIT, the lens rental place doesn't even stock Pentax or Sony - plenty of Canikon mount lenses! It doesn't matter how much kicking and screaming you do for the Pentax brand, they just simply do not meet the requirements of a lot of photographers. Need perspective control on your EOS 5D MK3? No problem.

The age old argument of "but the K-5 has over 14 stops of DR!!!! why are people not buying this more?!" - certainly in the landscape world, neutral density filters, manual exposure blending and even multi shot HDR close the gap very quickly for those that have the skills.

Personally, I genuinely believe Canon are not innovating like Nikon or Sony are. The Sony Exmor sensors have been proven ad nauseum to wipe the floor with Canon sensors for those that need to push shadows or exposures without sacrificing image quality. As soon as Canon wave a white flag and say "we're using Sony sensors", then the playing field is levelled again, particularly in the entry level market.

EOS 700D with a 24 Megapixel Sony Exmor sensor (like a Nikon D3200..) and access to an array of awesome lenses? That'll sell like hot cakes.

My 2p.

Hotcakes sell like hotcakes because they are IN the hotcake store. However, the Nikon entry stuff doesn't have very good legacy support, WR and several other things.

[Rondec]

This .

Conjecture, surmising, subjective remarks.

"Canon's ergonomics suck!" - everyone likes their own camera ergonomics once they're used to it, and it's purely a personal preference or opinion.

Speaking as a former Canon, Pentax and Sony shooter, one BIG advantage is that the lens rental market is significantly better for Canikon shooters. Need a Canon EF 400mm f/2.8 for a week at short notice? No problem. Need a 400mm f/2.8 Pentax lens? Oh wait, they don't do one. OH WAIT, the lens rental place doesn't even stock Pentax or Sony - plenty of Canikon mount lenses! It doesn't matter how much kicking and screaming you do for the Pentax brand, they just simply do not meet the requirements of a lot of photographers. Need perspective control on your EOS 5D MK3? No problem.

The age old argument of "but the K-5 has over 14 stops of DR!!!! why are people not buying this more?!" - certainly in the landscape world, neutral density filters, manual exposure blending and even multi shot HDR close the gap very quickly for those that have the skills.

Personally, I genuinely believe Canon are not innovating like Nikon or Sony are. The Sony Exmor sensors have been proven ad nauseum to wipe the floor with Canon sensors for those that need to push shadows or exposures without sacrificing image quality. As soon as Canon wave a white flag and say "we're using Sony sensors", then the playing field is levelled again, particularly in the entry level market.

EOS 700D with a 24 Megapixel Sony Exmor sensor (like a Nikon D3200..) and access to an array of awesome lenses? That'll sell like hot cakes.

My 2p.

I think most of the comments in the thread are not comparing Canon to Pentax, but rather Canon to Nikon.

As subjective as ergonomics are, I definitely prefer both Pentax and Nikon to Canon. Fine if others prefer it the other way.

[nickthetasmaniac]

I posted an link confirming the shrunken sensor size in 6D. and the APS-H sensor in their (at the time) top of the DSLR is just as bad and actually worse then the size difference in their APS-C cameras.

Firstly, Canon's APS-H sensor was just that, an APS-H sensor. They never claimed it to be anything else, everyone who bought one knew precisely what they were buying. It wasnt their 'only' flagship model - if you wanted a 35mm sensor they offered that too, in a very similar body too. Horses for courses...

Secondly, the link you posted suggests that Canon's new full-frame sensor is, wait for it, 0.2mm horizontally and 0.1mm vertially smaller that 'true' full-frame. If this is really what concerns you then, well, wow...

I think I'll leave this thread be...

[shaolen]

Firstly, Canon's APS-H sensor was just that, an APS-H sensor. They never claimed it to be anything else, everyone who bought one knew precisely what they were buying. It wasnt their 'only' flagship model - if you wanted a 35mm sensor they offered that too, in a very similar body too. Horses for courses...

Secondly, the link you posted suggests that Canon's new full-frame sensor is, wait for it, 0.2mm horizontally and 0.1mm vertially smaller that 'true' full-frame. If this is really what concerns you then, well, wow...

I think I'll leave this thread be...

Like i stated earlier to a person who said something similar it's the fact that they even had to make it smaller that's concerning. they're cutting corners. also you missed that they dropped the focus points down to 9. come on! the K-5 even beats that. why would someone waiste their time with the 6D when Nikon has the D600 with almost no compromises? and as for the APS-H just like Nikon had several variants of the D3 like the s and x, Canon had theirs but instead they chose a much smaller sensor and charged you the same price maybe more.

[shaolen]

Firstly, Canon's APS-H sensor was just that, an APS-H sensor. They never claimed it to be anything else, everyone who bought one knew precisely what they were buying. It wasnt their 'only' flagship model - if you wanted a 35mm sensor they offered that too, in a very similar body too. Horses for courses...

Secondly, the link you posted suggests that Canon's new full-frame sensor is, wait for it, 0.2mm horizontally and 0.1mm vertially smaller that 'true' full-frame. If this is really what concerns you then, well, wow...

I think I'll leave this thread be...

I said in the end all these cameras are going to take good pictures but why does Canon get singled out with an unwaivering unquestioned superiority when they're not infact most of the time their products are behind the rest.