Nikon D5200 beat K5IIs - DxO mark

treebeard · 01-18-2013, 04:41 PM

Originally posted by causey

Even if Pentax announces a 24mp camera this Spring? I certainly hope they will show us one soon.

I would not be able to afford it. I really love the feel of the K-5 in my hands (with or without the grip). I find it more comfortable than my last camera (D700).

Aegon · 01-18-2013, 05:26 PM

I don't think the Toshiba sensor is very much different from the Sony sensor. I'd bet that the same Nikon lithography machines are used in each process, the same Sony EXMOR BSLCMOS license is applied to each design, and the process/features are all probably very similar. Yields and costs may be different, wafer sizes may be different, factories may be different, but the chip is probably very similar.

Tech licensing isn't one-sided. Sony may license Nikon's use of EXMOR, but part of the agreement may include sweet deals for Sony to use Nikon Lithography, which could be extremely valuable.

These agreements would never be made public.

NitroDC · 01-18-2013, 06:25 PM

I'm going to wait to upgrade my K20D -- probably a few more years (2 or 3... maybe one if I get anxious). Hopefully Pentax continues making APS-C cameras because I won't have many lenses to go with full frame, and don't want a giant body either. For now, I have my K20 and will have the K-01 in a month or whenever Amazon ships it. That should keep me busy for a while.

ewig · 01-18-2013, 06:59 PM

all i need is a FULL FRAME sensor from pentax , a better sensor with great HDR capability or what so ever will not work

GlennG · 01-18-2013, 08:56 PM - **1 Like**

Several comments, no particular order:

- I'd consider this good news, overall. Shows that more improvements can still be wrung out of the C format
- Real good performance (D5200), but I doubt I'd see any real difference between the D5200, D3200, K30, and K5's in practical use. I'd consider all of them to be, currently, about as good as APS C can get - around 80.
- 24 MP- hmmmmm.....not sure what all that gets - cropability? Imaging Resource (I think) tested D3200 and noted that the large prints from it were very similar to the similar sized prints from the D3100 (14 MP, if I recall correctly), so concluded that a whopping 10 extra MP did not improve the prints (but I was led to believe they were very nice from both/either of those two anyway.)
- I wonder if, in today's world, the sensors really test the lenses more than they used to, showing good vs. not so good (or is it the reverse!) Seems that I keep reading that the more MP one has, the better lens one needs to show all that potential resolution. Whatever happened to the good old days when all you needed MP for was to crop like crazy, or print humongous? And if you didn't need to do either, well, MP's were then a waste and a memory hog on your computer?
- DXOMark sensor result for Canon t4i: 62, with ISO dropping down into the 700's! Wow, talk about D5200 and t4i going in different directions! Maybe sensor performance is just not that much of a priority for Canon. Or Canon buyers! At some point you would think the Canon people would start noticing that.
- D5200 body is nowhere even remotely close to being in the same league as K-30. It doesn't even have a motor, for crying out loud! Not WR. Not pentaprism. Not 100% view finder. Not dual wheels. But does have tilting LCD, and mic input.
- Just read the Rockwell report on D5200 - not flattering. He stated the D5100 was really about the same, took just as good of pictures, and was much cheaper now. Mostly, Rockwell just seems to like great big eye-level viewfinders.

Ok, that's all for now.

Thanks.

Glenn

Sol Invictus · 01-18-2013, 08:57 PM - **1 Like**

I would still take a K5IIs due to its many other advantages but it should serve notice to Pentax to up their game.

VisualDarkness · 01-18-2013, 10:48 PM

Originally posted by john5100

Agree that it's probably be more like 5 or 6 years.

We all know about this nice inexpensive camera.
Hasselblad's 200-megapixel camera: $45,000 | Deep Tech - CNET News

Actually me and some friends checked prices for hiring a high-res Hasselblad for a couple of hours in high school, do I have to say that we didn't? The cost was something like 5000$ for half a day with a "cheap" model and I doubt that we would have passed the credit test.

Gimbal · 01-19-2013, 02:07 AM

It had to happen sometime, but if one look at the graphs (print size) at base iso the K5 still wins at SNR 18%, dynamic range and tonal range, only to be beaten at color sensitivity. So at base iso the K5 is still the king, IMHO. But then of course the increased resolution might swing it to Nikon. Ah well.

audiobomber · 01-19-2013, 06:13 AM

Originally posted by GlennG

Whatever happened to the good old days when all you needed MP for was to crop like crazy, or print humongous?

I want more megapixels so I can crop (mostly for birding), but also because more mp will show less moire on a body with no AA filter.

GlennG · 01-19-2013, 08:55 AM

Originally posted by audiobomber

also because more mp will show less moire on a body with no AA filter

Wow - thanks for the info! Who knew?!

ogl · 01-19-2013, 09:09 AM

Originally posted by LFLee

Beat K5IIs in APSC segment.
The sensor is... apparently from Toshiba. Interesting.

Almost the same level. The difference is tiny.

Nikon uses also Aptina sensors.

Not only Sony.

Pay attention that D5200's difference between real and marked ISO are very high.

For example,
D5200's ISO1600=1095
K-5II's ISO1600=1426

D5200's ISO6400=4522
K-5II's ISO6400=5970

and e.t.c

goubejp · 01-19-2013, 10:10 AM

Originally posted by audiobomber

I want more megapixels so I can crop (mostly for birding), but also because more mp will show less moire on a body with no AA filter.

Agreed; I currently use K5IIs with FA*600 and I sometime encounter moiré or false color issues; 24 Mpix should definitively solve the issue, the lens acting as an (expensive) AA filter

**interested_observer** · 01-19-2013, 11:47 AM

Originally posted by john5100

Agree that it's probably be more like 5 or 6 years.

We all know about this nice inexpensive camera.
Hasselblad's 200-megapixel camera: $45,000 | Deep Tech - CNET News

After reading about the Hasselblad body, if you think about what they are doing - dithering (or moving) the sensor about a half of pixel (in 6 different successive directions), every Pentax body since the K100 does this. This is the same as Pentax's SR or shake reduction just applied in a slightly different way. Pentax could probably put out a firmware update on any of their bodies doing the same thing, and capture 4x of the base MP resolution. Then it just a matter of combining them - as Pentax already does also with their in-body HDR capability. Couple that with the K5IIs sans the AA filter, and you would have the absolutely best landscape camera around at 64MP. The result is essentially the same as the Forum sensor from Sigma (however implemented in a different way - they do it in hardware on the sensor via the light path).

Rupert · 01-19-2013, 02:33 PM

With all the rapid advancements we see almost daily, it is nice to see that my two year old K5 is still hanging in there very close to the latest models. My old workhorse, the K20D, was a pleasure to use...mostly...and I felt it might remain at the top of my list for many years, but the K5 has proven to be a very capable and lasting tool for my use, in more ways than I ever anticipated.
Regards!

mecrox · 01-19-2013, 04:55 PM

Further refinements to AF, revised flash system, good and usable live view, a high-density LCD on the back and a cracking good 18-24 mp sensor (perhaps a new version from Sony) with an option to buy a version with no AA filter (and maybe in-camera moiré removal) - it sounds perfectly doable and what's not to like, if this kind of thing is what Pentax have in mind for a new APS-C flagship. Assuming Pentax can source a good sensor, it's all evolutionary. OTOH, maybe they could take a leaf from the book of Canon and leave off the on-camera flash in favour of onboard GPS or wifi. Pentax could instead offer a small add-on flash similar to the Nikon SB 400.

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01-18-2013, 04:41 PM	#16
treebeard Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Windham, NH Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 793	Originally posted by causey Even if Pentax announces a 24mp camera this Spring? I certainly hope they will show us one soon. I would not be able to afford it. I really love the feel of the K-5 in my hands (with or without the grip). I find it more comfortable than my last camera (D700).

01-18-2013, 05:26 PM	#17
Aegon Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 1,416	I don't think the Toshiba sensor is very much different from the Sony sensor. I'd bet that the same Nikon lithography machines are used in each process, the same Sony EXMOR BSLCMOS license is applied to each design, and the process/features are all probably very similar. Yields and costs may be different, wafer sizes may be different, factories may be different, but the chip is probably very similar. Tech licensing isn't one-sided. Sony may license Nikon's use of EXMOR, but part of the agreement may include sweet deals for Sony to use Nikon Lithography, which could be extremely valuable. These agreements would never be made public.

01-18-2013, 06:25 PM	#18
NitroDC Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 342	I'm going to wait to upgrade my K20D -- probably a few more years (2 or 3... maybe one if I get anxious). Hopefully Pentax continues making APS-C cameras because I won't have many lenses to go with full frame, and don't want a giant body either. For now, I have my K20 and will have the K-01 in a month or whenever Amazon ships it. That should keep me busy for a while.

01-18-2013, 06:59 PM	#19
ewig Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Photos: Albums Posts: 312	all i need is a FULL FRAME sensor from pentax , a better sensor with great HDR capability or what so ever will not work

01-18-2013, 08:56 PM - 1 Like	#20
GlennG Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 824	Several comments, no particular order: - I'd consider this good news, overall. Shows that more improvements can still be wrung out of the C format - Real good performance (D5200), but I doubt I'd see any real difference between the D5200, D3200, K30, and K5's in practical use. I'd consider all of them to be, currently, about as good as APS C can get - around 80. - 24 MP- hmmmmm.....not sure what all that gets - cropability? Imaging Resource (I think) tested D3200 and noted that the large prints from it were very similar to the similar sized prints from the D3100 (14 MP, if I recall correctly), so concluded that a whopping 10 extra MP did not improve the prints (but I was led to believe they were very nice from both/either of those two anyway.) - I wonder if, in today's world, the sensors really test the lenses more than they used to, showing good vs. not so good (or is it the reverse!) Seems that I keep reading that the more MP one has, the better lens one needs to show all that potential resolution. Whatever happened to the good old days when all you needed MP for was to crop like crazy, or print humongous? And if you didn't need to do either, well, MP's were then a waste and a memory hog on your computer? - DXOMark sensor result for Canon t4i: 62, with ISO dropping down into the 700's! Wow, talk about D5200 and t4i going in different directions! Maybe sensor performance is just not that much of a priority for Canon. Or Canon buyers! At some point you would think the Canon people would start noticing that. - D5200 body is nowhere even remotely close to being in the same league as K-30. It doesn't even have a motor, for crying out loud! Not WR. Not pentaprism. Not 100% view finder. Not dual wheels. But does have tilting LCD, and mic input. - Just read the Rockwell report on D5200 - not flattering. He stated the D5100 was really about the same, took just as good of pictures, and was much cheaper now. Mostly, Rockwell just seems to like great big eye-level viewfinders. Ok, that's all for now. Thanks. Glenn

01-18-2013, 08:57 PM - 1 Like	#21
Sol Invictus Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Calgary, Alberta Photos: Gallery Posts: 392	I would still take a K5IIs due to its many other advantages but it should serve notice to Pentax to up their game.

01-18-2013, 10:48 PM	#22
VisualDarkness Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Uppsala, Sweden Photos: Gallery Posts: 4,439	Originally posted by john5100 Agree that it's probably be more like 5 or 6 years. We all know about this nice inexpensive camera. Hasselblad's 200-megapixel camera: $45,000 \| Deep Tech - CNET News Actually me and some friends checked prices for hiring a high-res Hasselblad for a couple of hours in high school, do I have to say that we didn't? The cost was something like 5000$ for half a day with a "cheap" model and I doubt that we would have passed the credit test.

01-19-2013, 02:07 AM	#23
Gimbal Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Sweden Posts: 2,106	It had to happen sometime, but if one look at the graphs (print size) at base iso the K5 still wins at SNR 18%, dynamic range and tonal range, only to be beaten at color sensitivity. So at base iso the K5 is still the king, IMHO. But then of course the increased resolution might swing it to Nikon. Ah well.

01-19-2013, 06:13 AM	#24
audiobomber Veteran Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Sudbury, Ontario Photos: Albums Posts: 6,806	Originally posted by GlennG Whatever happened to the good old days when all you needed MP for was to crop like crazy, or print humongous? I want more megapixels so I can crop (mostly for birding), but also because more mp will show less moire on a body with no AA filter.

01-19-2013, 08:55 AM	#25
GlennG Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 824	Originally posted by audiobomber also because more mp will show less moire on a body with no AA filter Wow - thanks for the info! Who knew?!

01-19-2013, 09:09 AM	#26
ogl Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Sankt Peterburg Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 8,382	Originally posted by LFLee Beat K5IIs in APSC segment. The sensor is... apparently from Toshiba. Interesting. Almost the same level. The difference is tiny. Nikon uses also Aptina sensors. Not only Sony. Pay attention that D5200's difference between real and marked ISO are very high. For example, D5200's ISO1600=1095 K-5II's ISO1600=1426 D5200's ISO6400=4522 K-5II's ISO6400=5970 and e.t.c

01-19-2013, 10:10 AM	#27
goubejp Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: France Photos: Albums Posts: 804	Originally posted by audiobomber I want more megapixels so I can crop (mostly for birding), but also because more mp will show less moire on a body with no AA filter. Agreed; I currently use K5IIs with FA*600 and I sometime encounter moiré or false color issues; 24 Mpix should definitively solve the issue, the lens acting as an (expensive) AA filter

01-19-2013, 11:47 AM	#28
interested_observer Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Tumbleweed, Arizona Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 5,707	Originally posted by john5100 Agree that it's probably be more like 5 or 6 years. We all know about this nice inexpensive camera. Hasselblad's 200-megapixel camera: $45,000 \| Deep Tech - CNET News After reading about the Hasselblad body, if you think about what they are doing - dithering (or moving) the sensor about a half of pixel (in 6 different successive directions), every Pentax body since the K100 does this. This is the same as Pentax's SR or shake reduction just applied in a slightly different way. Pentax could probably put out a firmware update on any of their bodies doing the same thing, and capture 4x of the base MP resolution. Then it just a matter of combining them - as Pentax already does also with their in-body HDR capability. Couple that with the K5IIs sans the AA filter, and you would have the absolutely best landscape camera around at 64MP. The result is essentially the same as the Forum sensor from Sigma (however implemented in a different way - they do it in hardware on the sensor via the light path).

01-19-2013, 02:33 PM	#29
Rupert Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Texas Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 25,123	With all the rapid advancements we see almost daily, it is nice to see that my two year old K5 is still hanging in there very close to the latest models. My old workhorse, the K20D, was a pleasure to use...mostly...and I felt it might remain at the top of my list for many years, but the K5 has proven to be a very capable and lasting tool for my use, in more ways than I ever anticipated. Regards!

01-19-2013, 04:55 PM	#30
mecrox Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Oxford, UK Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,375	Further refinements to AF, revised flash system, good and usable live view, a high-density LCD on the back and a cracking good 18-24 mp sensor (perhaps a new version from Sony) with an option to buy a version with no AA filter (and maybe in-camera moiré removal) - it sounds perfectly doable and what's not to like, if this kind of thing is what Pentax have in mind for a new APS-C flagship. Assuming Pentax can source a good sensor, it's all evolutionary. OTOH, maybe they could take a leaf from the book of Canon and leave off the on-camera flash in favour of onboard GPS or wifi. Pentax could instead offer a small add-on flash similar to the Nikon SB 400.